Planning question

6541

Hi Folks,

I hope some one here can help, or point me in the right direction.
I live on what would once have been a typical Irish boreen, over the years where we live has been put into the urban area.

The latest is that they are going to put a foot path and street lights up our booren, this bugs me on a number of levels, I don't want either of these. I am told there is noting I can do as we are in the urban area, is this true?

The other thing is I used to park outside my house, now if they put a footpath outside my house I loose my parking space, we are a two car house.
Should I not get compensated for loosing my parking space ?

Thanks for your help.

6541

To the mods - maybe this post should go to Construction and Planning, can you move or should I repost. Thanks in advance.

runawaybishop

6541 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I hope some one here can help, or point me in the right direction.
I live on what would once have been a typical Irish boreen, over the years where we live has been put into the urban area.

The latest is that they are going to put a foot path and street lights up our booren, this bugs me on a number of levels, I don't want either of these. I am told there is noting I can do as we are in the urban area, is this true?

The other thing is I used to park outside my house, now if they put a footpath outside my house I loose my parking space, we are a two car house.
Should I not get compensated for loosing my parking space ?

Thanks for your help.

Do you own the area outside where you park? You can try objecting to having the street light right outside your bedroom window maybe but you wont get far.

6541

runawaybishop wrote: »

Do you own the area outside where you park? You can try objecting to having the street light right outside your bedroom window maybe but you wont get far.

I do, but years ago we gave permission to the County Council to tar outside the perimeter wall. I believe we own a standard couple of yards outside the perimeter wall. I will check the deeds tonight to confirm.

runawaybishop

Check what exactly you signed, if it was access or something else.

Who has been telling you about the plans or that you have no comeback? Have you already sought advice from legal or the council?

murphaph

It was a boreen before you (or whoever built your house) and your neighbours built houses on it and suburbanised it. That's what happens when everyone is allowed to build houses on boreens. They become suburban in nature and require footpaths (at great expense to the general taxpayer and not you personally...in Germany not only would you get your footpaths and lighting but YOU would be sent a bill for your share by the local commune, determined by road frontage!!)

You basically now live in suburbia, due to Ireland's free for all "planning" regime!

Eric Cartman

murphaph wrote: »

It was a boreen before you (or whoever built your house) and your neighbours built houses on it and suburbanised it. That's what happens when everyone is allowed to build houses on boreens. They become suburban in nature and require footpaths (at great expense to the general taxpayer and not you personally...in Germany not only would you get your footpaths and lighting but YOU would be sent a bill for your share by the local commune, determined by road frontage!!)

You basically now live in suburbia, due to Ireland's free for all "planning" regime!

Ireland has anything but a free for all on planning.

runawaybishop

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ireland has anything but a free for all on planning.

Ah no, we do. Place is littered with mcmansions and one off housing that cost a fortune to service.

Eric Cartman

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ah no, we do. Place is littered with mcmansions and one off housing that cost a fortune to service.

can you tell me where these 'mcmansions' are please , im looking for something 2 story + over 4000sq ft in north kildare / meath / wicklow / co. dublin within easy reach of the m50 and cant find anything.

I wont deny theres a lot of one off houses but the vast majority of them are <2500sq ft dormer bungalows that may aswell have been built in a housing estate.

runawaybishop

Eric Cartman wrote: »

can you tell me where these 'mcmansions' are please , im looking for something 2 story + over 4000sq ft in north kildare / meath / wicklow / co. dublin within easy reach of the m50 and cant find anything.

I wont deny theres a lot of one off houses but the vast majority of them are <2500sq ft dormer bungalows that may aswell have been built in a housing estate.

The vast majority of them around where i am are horrible square lumps with greco-roman pillars outside them

Irelands loose regulations on one off rural housing have lead directly to the ops issue.

murphaph

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ireland has anything but a free for all on planning.

Of course it does. In Germany and even closer to home in GB (NI is just as crazy as the Republic) you just won't get (99% of the time) any planning for a house outside an established urban area. You will have to find a site inside a town/village and build on that. In grown up countries land that is zoned agricultural remains agricultural and does not get sold off in 1/3 acre plots along boreens (and worse along national roads as happens in Clare!) to be built upon in an unsustainable manner.

Go to GB and take a train from Manchester to Sheffield. Both cities of around 1 million people and you still find true WILDERNESS between them. Ireland, despite a much smaller population and much lower population density than England, has much less land turned over to wilderness and shamefully few (and largely pathetic) national parks. We have "successfully" suburbanised the countryside and as you say, most of the houses we've built there would be equally at home in a typical housing estate...so why aren't they in housing estates and not blighting the once beautiful countryside?!

6541

runawaybishop wrote: »

Check what exactly you signed, if it was access or something else.

Who has been telling you about the plans or that you have no comeback? Have you already sought advice from legal or the council?

I will check this out, the Neighbor who is a farmer has removed a large hedge, built a wall in direct line to my perimeter wall, not only do I suspect that the council have paid him to build the wall I suspect the council have paid him for the couple of yards of frontage, so I am thinking surely I should get paid for my frontage.
I don't know where to go with this so I am asking for help here.

runawaybishop

6541 wrote: »

I will check this out, the Neighbor who is a farmer has removed a large hedge, built a wall in direct line to my perimeter wall, not only do I suspect that the council have paid him to build the wall I suspect the council have paid him for the couple of yards of frontage, so I am thinking surely I should get paid for my frontage.
I don't know where to go with this so I am asking for help here.

Ok, can you just ask the neighbour?

Your deeds or land registry should clearly show if you own the land. Giving permission to get it tarred doesnt mean they now own it and can put a footpath on it, they would need a compulsory purchase order.

If you havent spoke to the council then you should do so, what do they say about the plans for the road etc and inform them that you own the property outside the wall.

6541

runawaybishop wrote: »

Ok, can you just ask the neighbour?

Your deeds or land registry should clearly show if you own the land. Giving permission to get it tarred doesnt mean they now own it and can put a footpath on it, they would need a compulsory purchase order.

If you havent spoke to the council then you should do so, what do they say about the plans for the road etc and inform them that you own the property outside the wall.

Can't really talk to the Neighbour, long story. I will get the deeds tonight and I will post on this tomorrow / tonight.
I have spoken to a County Councillor and he informs me that yep there are building footpath and Lights, as I said neither of which I want.

runawaybishop

6541 wrote: »

Can't really talk to the Neighbour, long story. I will get the deeds tonight and I will post on this tomorrow / tonight.
I have spoken to a County Councillor and he informs me that yep there are building footpath and Lights, as I said neither of which I want.

I would get on directly to the planning department and just ask them first. Might turn out to be nothing or a mistake - or they may have been unaware.

6541

runawaybishop wrote: »

I would get on directly to the planning department and just ask them first. Might turn out to be nothing or a mistake - or they may have been unaware.

Okay after i suss out the deeds, oh it is something alright, it is the talk of the boreen ! The farmer has cleared the hedgerow, poured concrete and is building a wall. The footpath is a coming alright.
It also means I have nowhere to park now !!

runawaybishop

6541 wrote: »

Okay after i suss out the deeds, oh it is something alright, it is the talk of the boreen ! The farmer has cleared the hedgerow, poured concrete and is building a wall. The footpath is a coming alright.
It also means I have nowhere to park now !!

If it was a compulsory purchase order the council usually do the building themselves. I would just advise seeking clarification from the council first as to what is planned.

jmayo

murphaph wrote: »

It was a boreen before you (or whoever built your house) and your neighbours built houses on it and suburbanised it. That's what happens when everyone is allowed to build houses on boreens. They become suburban in nature and require footpaths (at great expense to the general taxpayer and not you personally...in Germany not only would you get your footpaths and lighting but YOU would be sent a bill for your share by the local commune, determined by road frontage!!)

You basically now live in suburbia, due to Ireland's free for all "planning" regime!

Why the feck do some use these threads to have an immediate go at people who don't happen to live within the confines of a major town or city.

And before you and others start on about how people are allowed build all over the place, pleae note how the OP stated that the area has been put into the local urban area.
Thus they are probably in close proximity or on the boundary of the urban area.
They aren't 2 or 3 miles from the local bloody urban area.

Hell I can even point to what could be termed boreens that are now within city limits and over time have been completly enclosed in residential buildings in all directions.
And I can point to small roads that are next door to villages and towns where people have built.
Are people only supposed to build inside a town or city and not on the boundaries.
For a start I find building beside a road is a bit of advantage when it comes to access.

And even if you look at our continental neighbours people are allowed build beside towns/villages rather than truly out in the middle of nowhere.

murphaph

jmayo wrote: »

And even if you look at our continental neighbours people are allowed build beside towns/villages rather than truly out in the middle of nowhere.

I'm only really familiar with German and UK planning policy. In Germany at least you will not get permission to build a dwelling outside the boundary of a town/village. If it is decided that building land is needed, land adjacent to an exiting settlement will be rezoned and often roads and services will be laid out by the local authority and fully serviced sites sold off, often in varying sizes. People can build their unique house but not outside the defined urban area.

I'm personally only aware of one case of a local authority ever doing this in Ireland (though I'm sure there are more, but they are nevertheless extremely rare).

Also in Germany (at least in many regions) the trend is to allow hinterland development of old large sites with a single house. The logic behind this is to "sweat the assets" and get as much out of the existing public infrastructure (streets, lighting, water, sewage etc.) before creating new development areas adjacent to the urban area.

6541

Okay folks I need help now, I have the deeds in my hand as we I type. Now I need help to translate them.

So there is a section that says:

"Register of ownership of freehold land" On this Section I see Townland: "xxxareaxxx"

Next heading is Area A "A Number"
Area R "A number"
Area P "A Number"

Next Heading is Barony:
"Another Name"


Next heading is reference to plan on registry map
Plan: "A Number"
O/S No "A number as in x/y"
Final Heading is Official notes:
"More Non Englishey stuff here"

So I guess I need to find the exact area of owner ship based on the above.
Where do I go ?? Will it show clearly what the exact area of ownership is. Is there a cost ? At this stage should I go to a professional and if so who?

Thanks Folks, and sorry for being so stupid.

6541

So the question that I am asking is where does my boundary finish. I cant see that from the OSI maps online ?

murphaph

6541 wrote: »

I will check this out, the Neighbor who is a farmer has removed a large hedge, built a wall in direct line to my perimeter wall, not only do I suspect that the council have paid him to build the wall I suspect the council have paid him for the couple of yards of frontage, so I am thinking surely I should get paid for my frontage.
I don't know where to go with this so I am asking for help here.

It should be public record if the council have purchased the frontage from your neighbour. Your folio and map will not show the boundary (in fact you probably own out to the centre line of the boreen but the public right of way over it means you can't practically use it). I'd approach the council and see exactly what plans exist, if any, for the developments and see what can be done to accommodate your needs BEFORE final plans are drawn up and the thing goes to tender etc.

Mrs OBumble

OP, why exactly don't you want footpath and street lights? How does your street being unsafe for pedestrians make thing ANY better for you?

Poor Uncle Tom

6541 wrote: »

Next heading is Area A "A Number"
Area R "A number"
Area P "A Number"

This is the site area in imperial measurements, Acres, Roods and Perches. There are 4 roods in an acre, there are 40 perches in a rood. For conversions sake a perch has 25.2929m2 and there are 4047m2 in an acre.

6541 wrote: »

plan on registry map
Plan: "A Number"
O/S No "A number as in x/y"

If there is not a map with the deeds these reference numbers should get one from the Property Registration Authority.

Has the boreen been taken in charge by the Local Authority? This is the first thing you need to find out.

Getting any Local Authority to supply services (lighting and footpaths) should be viewed as a huge achievement, how many users does the boreen have? and how many are for or against these works?

riclad

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/Forms/Land_Registry_Forms/

i think you can can fill in a form here to get a folio with a map,
more info re the land you own,boundarys. etc

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/landdirect_ie/About_landdirect_ie/About_landdirect_ie.html

Services available to Business Account Holders:

• Search and locate property using our digital map at no charge.
• Print a copy of the map.
• Use an index of addresses (An Post GeoDirectory) to view a map and locate a folio.
• Conduct names index searches.
• View & print folios. Click here for a list of County Codes



Registration Authority.
If you are not a Business Account Holder, you can search the Land Registry map online at https://www.mypropertytitle.ie/praMap.aspx. You can also view folios and order certified copy folios with maps on payment of the prescribed fee.
If you are not a landdirect.ie user, you may still avail of our services by post or by calling to one of our public offices.

see can you find your folio on the link ,
mypropertytitle etc above

http://www.prai.ie/eng/Contact_Us/Land_Registry_Contact_Details.html

murphaph

Guys, the land registry maps won't show the actual boundary. They are quite clear about this.

Poor Uncle Tom

murphaph wrote: »

Guys, the land registry maps won't show the actual boundary. They are quite clear about this.

I don't think anyone has said that they do!

murphaph wrote: »

Your folio and map will not show the boundary (in fact you probably own out to the centre line of the boreen but the public right of way over it means you can't practically use it).

You are making a huge assumption here, nobody knows from this thread who exactly has use of the boreen or whether it has been taken in charge or not. If it has not been taken in charge the Folio Map would be of great value to establish whether the OP owns to the centre line of the boreen or not and that would have a huge bearing on what happens.

murphaph

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I don't think anyone has said that they do!

...


You are making a huge assumption here, nobody knows from this thread who exactly has use of the boreen or whether it has been taken in charge or not. If it has not been taken in charge the Folio Map would be of great value to establish whether the OP owns to the centre line of the boreen or not and that would have a huge bearing on what happens.

Of course it's been taken in charge...the council proposes footpaths and public lighting for it!

Poor Uncle Tom

It is my understanding that this hasn't been established with any certainty at this stage, that it's just hearsay.

murphaph

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

It is my understanding that this hasn't been established with any certainty at this stage, that it's just hearsay.

If that's the case then the OP has nothing to worry about.

moy83

Are there many houses on the boreen ? I'm pretty close to galway city and the only thing to go on the boreen is an 80kph sign ! Would people not usually have to ask for these services ?

riclad

IF its not shown on the map ,
the boundarys on all sides, should be described in writing on the original deeds or some other document,
the document may be on the council records or at some other government office.
TO get planning permission ,to build the house , these documents ,or copys would be in council records ,
unless the house is very old .

I think these documents were all scanned ,put in digital form by the land comission
a few years ago .

6541

Okay Folks a slight update, I was talking to the Town Engineer and he said he is going to send the architect out to discuss.

He talked some crap about about its now in the urban area and they can provide lights and footpaths at will, I then pointed out that I am going to loose a parking space.
He then went on to ask where was my boundary, I said I don't know but it is usual that this extends to halfway of the boreen (thanks for the advise here)

He then stated that I could get the boundary from the planning permission, I pointed out this house was built in the seventies.

At this point he said he is going to send the Architect out for a chat.
Is there anything else I should look out for ?
Thanks people.

Marcusm

6541 wrote: »

Okay Folks a slight update, I was talking to the Town Engineer and he said he is going to send the architect out to discuss.

He talked some crap about about its now in the urban area and they can provide lights and footpaths at will, I then pointed out that I am going to loose a parking space.
He then went on to ask where was my boundary, I said I don't know but it is usual that this extends to halfway of the boreen (thanks for the advise here)

He then stated that I could get the boundary from the planning permission, I pointed out this house was built in the seventies.

At this point he said he is going to send the Architect out for a chat.
Is there anything else I should look out for ?
Thanks people.

If it was built in the 1970s, would his office or the National Archives have he planning docs?

6541

Marcusm wrote: »

If it was built in the 1970s, would his office or the National Archives have he planning docs?

When the Architect calls I will hit him on that one.

ted1

6541 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I hope some one here can help, or point me in the right direction.
I live on what would once have been a typical Irish boreen, over the years where we live has been put into the urban area.

The latest is that they are going to put a foot path and street lights up our booren, this bugs me on a number of levels, I don't want either of these. I am told there is noting I can do as we are in the urban area, is this true?

The other thing is I used to park outside my house, now if they put a footpath outside my house I loose my parking space, we are a two car house.
Should I not get compensated for loosing my parking space ?

Thanks for your help.

if you don't own the land how can you expect to be compensated

6541

ted1 wrote: »

if you don't own the land how can you expect to be compensated

That is my whole point I think I do own the land. In Fact I am certain, I recall that this boreen used to be even smaller and after one or two resurfacing it came to the width that it is now.

riclad

ARE you saying theres, maybe no planning permission for your house, or maybe the records are lost,
IF THE records cant be found ,boundary map, info.
the council may decide to give you a certain boundary ,leave it at that .
They could probably build over your parking space ,
unless you have a document to show its within your house ,land boundary.
OF course in the 70s ,all records were on paper,
its been known for deeds to get lost by banks in some cases.
NOT all deeds,or documents have been put on pcs,or digitised .
Some office may have the records ,
but the council does not know where they are.
UNLESS theres walls or fences around the house, when you bought it
or you were shown a map, or text desciption,of the land size ,dimensions.
how can you be sure you own the land.

SOME houses have small bits of land between em,
where its not clear exactly who owns what ,
eg do i own this bit out front, 30 sq ft,
or maybe i own 20 sq ft.
unless you have a document that describes the land site in text form,
or in the form of a boundary map.

6541

riclad wrote: »

ARE you saying theres, maybe no planning permission for your house, or maybe the records are lost,
IF THE records cant be found ,boundary map, info.
the council may decide to give you a certain boundary ,leave it at that .
They could probably build over your parking space ,
unless you have a document to show its within your house ,land boundary.
OF course in the 70s ,all records were on paper,
its been known for deeds to get lost by banks in some cases.
NOT all deeds,or documents have been put on pcs,or digitised .

No i am not, I am very green to this, okay the boundary is not outlined on the deeds, so where will I find my boundary, if Planning permission, where will I get my planning permission. Sorry for being so green.

riclad

I understand since the 70s, some councils may have changed offices ,
the local authority should have all planning permission documents,
for the county.
I have seen old deeds from the 50s, 70s,
which described the house boundarys on 4 sides in text form,
have you got the original full house deeds ?
not just a 1 page summary?
THE council has a planning office which should have planning permits etc

IS there any other office ,or archive that might have boundary info map ?
you can get documents from landcommision website ,28 euro, might be worth trying.
would your neighbours ,right ,left, have deeds, boundary , map,

your boundarys would probably be in line with the neighbours , if the houses are straight in line with your
House . eg in a row.



Land Registry Folio (ownership, covenants)
Check the status of your own land,
View your newly digitised boundaries.
Check that your solicitor registered your land correctly.
Find out if your property is freehold or leasehold (subject to ground rent)
Find out the name and address of the owner of any



see line 3 above.
http://www.landregistryireland.com/

view your boundarys

For €28 get all available data (name address of owners, mortgage details, along with ID maps, outlining the landholding all delivered to your desktop/letterbox.

Check that your solicitor registered your land correctly.
quote

if they have no info on your house,
i dont think they,ll charge you any money.

6541

riclad wrote: »

I understand since the 70s, some councils may have changed offices ,
the local authority should have all planning permission documents,
for the county.
I HAVE seen deeds from the 50s, 70s,
which described the boundarys on 4 sides in text form,
have you got the original full house deeds ?
THE council has a planning office which should have planning permits etc

Got the full deeds alright and there is nothing on it at all, I guess it is to the planning office so, I will do this after the I have chatted to the Architect. thanks for all your help.

riclad

CAN you not get the documents,folio, map with boundarys, from the link above,
for 28 euro.
online, sent to your pc.
just a suggestion.
a VISUAL map may not exist for some older houses,
just maybe a text document ,with dimension s of site,land,boundarys described in text form.