esb and legal action

newbie12

elp Needed.
Bought my house a year and four months ago. I was nine months pregnant and in a rush to get a new kitchen put in before baby arrived. To allow for one of the cabinets to go in my husband moved the esb box from under the white box to the right hand side of it. Three esb readers have called in the year to take a reading and yet my bills were still estimated, so when the last guy called I told him I was delighted to see him as im expecting a big bill soon and dont want it to go too high.
YEsterday a man called to inspect the box. He said the meter was going backwards and was intentionally done. I actually thought he meant someone was tapping into my esb!. He was actually quite aggressive saying whoever moved the box rewired it incorrectly and on purpose too. I told him it couldnt be as I was getting bills (although estimated) and paying them and opened my door to three esb readers within a year.
He told me it was fraud, took away pins and screws from the board as "evidence", said they take it v seriously and to get a solicitor. Ill have to back pay a years supply of esb and they prosecute. Im sick all night with worry. I explained it to my husband when he got home and he said he must have rewired it incorrectly or something. We didnt realise you are not allowed to move an esb box at all. Can anyone offer any advice on what I can do?
Im really worried.

Lambofdave

Firstly is your husband an electrician?

newbie12

no, he switched off the esb and moved the box. The ESB man yesterday explained this was illegal so I now know that. Honestly didnt even think you cant move something in your own house. Moved maybe ten cm!

234

Talk to a solicitor. If they suspect fraud then ESB Networks can and do prosecute. You need proper legal advice. A solicitor can contact them on your behalf and explain the situation which may nip matters in the bud.

For the future note that the meter is the property of ESB and you can't interfere with it in any way.

newbie12

Believe me I know that now, but who do I even write to? Should I wait to hear from them first?

Pro Hoc Vice

newbie12 wrote: »

Believe me I know that now, but who do I even write to? Should I wait to hear from them first?

The guy from the ESB said "speak to a solicitor" a poster on here said "speak to a solicitor" I'm now saying speak to a solicitor. This could be serious, if they prosecute you it will be a criminal fraud conviction. Get to a solicitor and follow his advice.

Pat Mustard

OP,

The ESB has an obligation to detect and prevent theft of electricity, and often prosecutes in cases of theft of electricity or interference with meters.

Your husband's story does not tally with what the ESB is saying. Sometimes people make up unlikely stories to cover up what actually happened. This is not helpful to defence solicitors, who need to establish the facts.

If the ESB can show that the meter was interfered with on a premises, and that the defendant is the occupier of that premises, then that is prima facie evidence of the charge against the defendant.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2012/en/act/pub/0003/sec0005.html#sec5

In other words, the defence is very easily put on the back foot in these cases, and unlikely stories can be counterproductive.

You have two options, as far as I can see:
1. Go to a solicitor now and give your solicitor as much time as possible to either resolve matters or prepare for defence, before a summons issues, or,
2. Go to a solicitor if/when a summons arrives.

Of the two options, given the nature of the potential charge, I would recommend seeing a solicitor as soon as possible.

If you go to a solicitor, he will need to see all of your ESB bills.

newbie12

thank you for that advice. I didnt hold on to the bills, paid them and threw them out. Can I request a copy of them? Im nervous to call looking for them

bardcom

newbie12 wrote: »

thank you for that advice. I didnt hold on to the bills, paid them and threw them out. Can I request a copy of them? Im nervous to call looking for them

First thing to do is talk to a solicitor. Forget anything else until you do this.

Pat Mustard

newbie12 wrote: »

thank you for that advice. I didnt hold on to the bills, paid them and threw them out. Can I request a copy of them? Im nervous to call looking for them

You may ring up and ask for duplicate bills. However, you may wish to run it by your solicitor before making any contact, just to be on the safe side.

Pro Hoc Vice

newbie12 wrote: »

thank you for that advice. I didnt hold on to the bills, paid them and threw them out. Can I request a copy of them? Im nervous to call looking for them

What part of speak to a solicitor don't you get.

newbie12

who said I dont get it? I thanked ppl for the advice because I will go to a solicitor. Why would you feel the need to be so aggressive?

Pro Hoc Vice

newbie12 wrote: »

who said I dont get it? I thanked ppl for the advice because I will go to a solicitor. Why would you feel the need to be so aggressive?

You asked should you contact the ESB, you asked should you get the bills from the past, all questions a solicitor will advise on. The forum charter does not allow giving of legal advice. No one here has all the facts, my comments are not aggressive but a simple statment of what is in you best interests todo. Anything you now do in connection with communication with the ESB can be used in evidence against you, phone calls e-mails comments to members of staff. If I come across as negutively it's because I am not at you but for you and to me you did not seem to listen to the only good advise, if you want to dig a deeper hole for you and your husbad do so, the only advice you you should take from this thread is before doing anything thing else contact a solicitor.

To be clear when advised to speak to solicitor you replied

"believe me I know that now, but who do I even write to? Should I wait to hear from them first?"

A solicitor will advice on above any letter you write can be used in evidence against you or husband.

Then again advised to get solicitor you replied

"thank you for that advice. I didnt hold on to the bills, paid them and threw them out. Can I request a copy of them? Im nervous to call looking for them"

As said any communication can be used against you the very fact you asked for the bills could be tedered in evidence, in any case if a case is brought against you all of that evidence will be released to your solicitor.

There are multiple defences to any possible charge which a solicitor can advise, a throw away comment could destroy any good possible defence.

Now I will take my leave of this thread.

Graces7

op; you can access your account online, submit readings etc see their web site

Five Lamps

Moving an ESB meter is not a trivial matter and is something that needs to be done by a RECI contractor. Your OH must have some knowledge of electrics to do this.

Surely if your bills were still estimated, you would have queried it and at least checked the readings against your meter to see how close they were?

I would guess that if the meter reading was decreasing each time it was being read then the ESB billing system probably could not process it, treated it as an error and defaulted to the estimated reading . ESB readers read countless boxes so are unlikely to notice if a meter reading was less that the previous reading.

I'm surprised that it took them so long to get to you. Best advice, as other posters said is to get a solicitor.

One thing that is in your favour - if there was an intent to defraud the ESB then it wasn't very well thought out! You wouldn't want to be paying estimated bills that could actually be far more than what you should be paying!!

ynotonavillus

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Anything you now do in connection with communication with the ESB can be used in evidence against you, phone calls e-mails comments to members of staff. .

Evidence against you of what?

Going to a solicitor is a good step but would be made better if you had with you readings and bills that could demonstrate the actual size of the problem, is it €50, €500 or €5000 ie is it for an amount that the solicitor could offer on your behalf to pay immediately to make the matter go away.

past usage even in a different home would provide a basis for an estimate.

Your actions and attempts to put the thing right will have a bearing in mitigation if it ends up before the District Court, in particular if you are seen to be proactive....

Pro Hoc Vice

ynotonavillus wrote: »

Evidence against you of what?

Going to a solicitor is a good step but would be made better if you had with you readings and bills that could demonstrate the actual size of the problem, is it €50, €500 or €5000 ie is it for an amount that the solicitor could offer on your behalf to pay immediately to make the matter go away.

past usage even in a different home would provide a basis for an estimate.

Your actions and attempts to put the thing right will have a bearing in mitigation if it ends up before the District Court, in particular if you are seen to be proactive....

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local-news/person-who-tampered-with-esb-meter-was-hair-s-breadth-from-oblivion-1-4906542

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=17160:esb-meter-tampering-rife-&catid=23:news&Itemid=46

http://www.leinsterleader.ie/news/local-news/men-tampered-with-esb-meter-in-maynooth-1-3906441

Evidence in any possible prosecution.

ynotonavillus

I am at a loss to understand how seeking bills from the ESB, for the purposes of dealing with the matter, post the discovery of the alleged offence, could in any way be used as evidence in the prosecution of the offence.

Pat Mustard

ynotonavillus wrote: »

I am at a loss to understand how seeking bills from the ESB, for the purposes of dealing with the matter, post the discovery of the alleged offence, could in any way be used as evidence in the prosecution of the offence.

I think that PHV's point was that if a defendant makes a statement, it can be brought into evidence, whereas the if the solicitor seeks the billing information, then that fact cannot be used in evidence.

It's worth considering that a client could say anything when the lawyers are not present.

You raise the question as to how the mere fact of asking for bills could be used as evidence. Well, I'd agree that there would certainly be a question of relevance. Also, even if the evidence was admitted, it is hard to see the value of such evidence from the prosecutor's point of view. But from a tactical view, it is better that there would be no additional evidence than even irrelevant evidence.

Pro Hoc Vice

ynotonavillus wrote: »

I am at a loss to understand how seeking bills from the ESB, for the purposes of dealing with the matter, post the discovery of the alleged offence, could in any way be used as evidence in the prosecution of the offence.

Any letter she writes any recording of call can all be used. Will they be used more than likely not. But anything she says can be used.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Five Lamps

ynotonavillus wrote: »

Evidence against you of what?

Going to a solicitor is a good step but would be made better if you had with you readings and bills that could demonstrate the actual size of the problem, is it €50, €500 or €5000 ie is it for an amount that the solicitor could offer on your behalf to pay immediately to make the matter go away.

past usage even in a different home would provide a basis for an estimate.

Your actions and attempts to put the thing right will have a bearing in mitigation if it ends up before the District Court, in particular if you are seen to be proactive....

The OP can't demonstrate the size of the problem as the ESB allege that the meter has been tampered with. If the OP did pay estimated bills in the past then there is no way of knowing if they actually under or overpaid for their electricity as the meter was going backwards. It's impossible to reconcile.

Comparing it to similar houses would not be reasonable as the ESB would argue that you could have been using the power for purposes above the norm.

cruizer101

Five Lamps wrote: »

The OP can't demonstrate the size of the problem as the ESB allege that the meter has been tampered with. If the OP did pay estimated bills in the past then there is no way of knowing if they actually under or overpaid for their electricity as the meter was going backwards. It's impossible to reconcile.

Comparing it to similar houses would not be reasonable as the ESB would argue that you could have been using the power for purposes above the norm.

I'd agree and this is why I'd advise the OP to try and get hold of the 3 meter readings that were made in the interim between moving in and when the problem was discovered. If these can be obtained they may well show a consistent usage which could be used as evidence that they were not deliberately committing fraud by rather just accidentally or mistakenly.
And that the amount they used can be accurately enough estimated. I would agree though OP go to a solicitor to get advice.

Five Lamps

cruizer101 wrote: »

I'd agree and this is why I'd advise the OP to try and get hold of the 3 meter readings that were made in the interim between moving in and when the problem was discovered. If these can be obtained they may well show a consistent usage which could be used as evidence that they were not deliberately committing fraud by rather just accidentally or mistakenly.
And that the amount they used can be accurately enough estimated. I would agree though OP go to a solicitor to get advice.

But I don't see the relevance of previous readings as the ESB would say that because the meter was interfered with you could have been running an industrial plant out the back or supplying all the other houses on the street.

Five Lamps

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Correct but generally a RECI electrician would be required to wire up to the meter and sign off on the electrics. I would suspect that anybody would be fined for breaking a seal (not sure why they would need to).

wexandproud

and god forbid if you had a house fire and your insurer knew about your unqualified person doing some re wiring you will also have a problem

Pat Mustard

wexandproud wrote: »

and god forbid if you had a house fire and your insurer knew about your unqualified person doing some re wiring you will also have a problem

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtkFmufS6k8

runawaybishop

The OP posted in another thread that the meter was not disconnected and moved then rewired. The meter is indoors and mounted on a wooden board. It was this board that was moved to allow a kitchen cabinet to be installed and the meter itself was not touched - there was no notification on the meter about tampering with it and it appears that the meter was not tampered with by the op or her husband.

234

Five Lamps wrote: »

The OP can't demonstrate the size of the problem as the ESB allege that the meter has been tampered with. If the OP did pay estimated bills in the past then there is no way of knowing if they actually under or overpaid for their electricity as the meter was going backwards. It's impossible to reconcile.

Comparing it to similar houses would not be reasonable as the ESB would argue that you could have been using the power for purposes above the norm.

Not necessarily, where a meter malfunctions and under-records consumption ESB Networks are able to determine the amount actually used. Obviously this may or may not be possible in the case of deliberate interference with the meter.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Pat Mustard

runawaybishop wrote: »

it appears that the meter was not tampered with by the op or her husband.

Did you read the bit about the meter running backwards?

sopretty

The Mustard wrote: »

Did you read the bit about the meter running backwards?

It may be a case that the previous owners had set it in such a way? (accidentally or otherwise?)

runawaybishop

The Mustard wrote: »

Did you read the bit about the meter running backwards?

Yes, the OP said neither she nor the husband did this. There is a bit more information in the other thread. According to the op the board was merely moved.

Pro Hoc Vice

sopretty wrote: »

It may be a case that the previous owners had set it in such a way? (accidentally or otherwise?)

The OP's husband moved the box, the OP said "I explained it to my husband when he got home and he said he must have rewired it incorrectly or something" the very moving of the box maybe enough. BTW the OP saying that to a ESB official may cause serious issues in any prosecution, hence why the OP should talk to a solicitor before saying any more to anyone.

Pro Hoc Vice

runawaybishop wrote: »

Yes, the OP said neither she nor the husband did this. There is a bit more information in the other thread. According to the op the board was merely moved.

The OP admits her husband moved the meter and says he may have rewired it incorrectly. So it seems to me the OP is admitting something she may not be admitting intent but she is admitting tampering.

sopretty

It's a bit of a nightmare. Hope the OP gets good legal representation.

Yawns

Do you need 2 separate threads on it for everyone to tell you the same thing. Get in touch with a solicitor.

runawaybishop

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

The OP admits her husband moved the meter and says he may have retired it incorrectly. So it seems to me the OP is admitting something she may not be admitting intent but she is admitting tampering.

I think the OP is confused, it looks like only the board was moved and the op assumed that somehow reserved the meter. Reversing the meter isn't something that would happen accidentally

The question was asked: Did your husband MOVE the meter, or physically rewire it?

Yes it was attached to a plank of wood. They were putting up a door and so moved tge box up. But they must have used new screws and stuff because the man from esb was adament it was intentionally tampered with because the screws were new. House was built around 1970 according to engineers report

edit: the op does say the husband said he must have rewired it incorrectly though - its all very unclear what exactly happened without the OP clarifying.

runawaybishop

Yawns wrote: »

Do you need 2 separate threads on it for everyone to tell you the same thing. Get in touch with a solicitor.

New poster who is worried and stressed about potential legal action, understandable they might make mistakes with forum etiquette/rules.

sopretty

runawaybishop wrote: »

New poster who is worried and stressed about potential legal action, understandable they might make mistakes with forum etiquette/rules.

I was going to say similar. If someone has no experience with solicitors or the legal process, the thoughts of having to get a solicitor and the potential costs arising can frighten the life out of someone. It's money well spent unfortunately.
Leave aside the potential underpayments and the potential implications of any convictions and fines. I personally wouldn't be sleeping at all if it was me! I think it's fair to let the poster speak a little, without the usual 'get a solicitor' line being trotted out, without further explanation. Just my own opinion obviously, and I understand the limitations of the charter.

Pro Hoc Vice

sopretty wrote: »

I was going to say similar. If someone has no experience with solicitors or the legal process, the thoughts of having to get a solicitor and the potential costs arising can frighten the life out of someone. It's money well spent unfortunately.
Leave aside the potential underpayments and the potential implications of any convictions and fines. I personally wouldn't be sleeping at all if it was me! I think it's fair to let the poster speak a little, without the usual 'get a solicitor' line being trotted out, without further explanation. Just my own opinion obviously, and I understand the limitations of the charter.

An example of why the above is really bad advice. The OP in the other thread asked should she start paying extra to the bill. Well why is that a problem well it might be taken by the judge as an admission of guilt. That's why the OP should say no more and talk to a solicitor. Or if she wishes she can save a few shillings and possibly get a conviction.

runawaybishop

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

An example of why the above is really bad advice. The OP in the other thread asked should she start paying extra to the bill. Well why is that a problem well it might be taken by the judge as an admission of guilt. That's why the OP should say no more and talk to a solicitor. Or if she wishes she can save a few shillings and possibly get a conviction.

Say no more to the ESB, sure. No harm them asking more questions here though.

Pro Hoc Vice

runawaybishop wrote: »

Say no more to the ESB, sure. No harm them asking more questions here though.

I know of 3 civil case and a number of criminal cases where evidence of social media where given to the court. In civil cases all 3 led to plaintiffs losing cases. I assume ESB employees are on boards.

According to her little posting record she is <Moderator edited: removed identifying information>.

runawaybishop

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I know of 3 civil case and a number of criminal cases where evidence of social media where given to the court. In civil cases all 3 led to plaintiffs losing cases. I assume ESB employees are on boards.

According to her little posting record she is <Moderator edited: removed identifying information>

Fair enough.

sopretty

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

I know of 3 civil case and a number of criminal cases where evidence of social media where given to the court. In civil cases all 3 led to plaintiffs losing cases. I assume ESB employees are on boards.

According to her little posting record she is <Moderator edited: removed identifying information>

Remind me to change my username at the earliest possible opportunity!! (Is that allowed on boards? PS I am not seeking legal advice! :pac:)

Pat Mustard

sopretty wrote: »

It may be a case that the previous owners had set it in such a way? (accidentally or otherwise?)

runawaybishop wrote: »

Yes, the OP said neither she nor the husband did this. There is a bit more information in the other thread. According to the op the board was merely moved.

If we look at the legislation, there will be prima facie evidence of the charge once it is shown that the equipment was tampered with and that the defendant is the occupier of the premises.

It could be difficult to convince a judge that somebody else did it.

sopretty

Gosh. Unless they can determine that it was going in reverse prior to the hubby moving it, it's a tough one it seems. Will ESB research whether it was going in reverse while previous occupants were there?

Pat Mustard

sopretty wrote: »

Will ESB research whether it was going in reverse while previous occupants were there?

I'd say that they will check their own records, as to when the equipment was previously inspected.

ynotonavillus

sopretty wrote: »

Gosh. Unless they can determine that it was going in reverse prior to the hubby moving it, it's a tough one it seems. Will ESB research whether it was going in reverse while previous occupants were there?

Most theft of electricity cases involve meters being stopped usually by inserting a metal object through a small hole, drilled for the purpose in just the correct spot. The ESB usually give evidence of the estimated lost revenue.

If the meter went into reverse and there are previous meter readings available then it will be possible to estimate with a fair degree of accuracy when the tampering occurred.

Importantly the meter running in reverse will have been measuring the current consumed. So if there were three meter readings in the past then these will provide accurate reads of current passing through the meter since they were taken,

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ynotonavillus

newbie12 wrote: »

YEsterday a man called to inspect the box. He said the meter was going backwards and was intentionally done. .

OP thinks it happened,,,,