Warning, very unusual car break-in Tallaght square

v240gltse

hi all

Heads up the daughters can was broken into yesterday in the Square in Tallaght .

When she was parking it she noticed that a man of non-irish descent was loitering around and approached the car and stood close by.

He appeared to be on the phone but keeping an eye on the car.

She waited for a while and then left the car only as he started to walk away and as always remotely locked the car .

When she came back the car was locked and as she opened the boot she noticed that some items had been stolen and even odder, when she got into the car the thief had taken only a phone charger cable BUT had left his phone behind ( this has since been given to the guards and a case reported ).

She (like myself) only locks the car with the remote no further than a foot away from the door in order to avoid the key scanners out there.

Anyway onto my question how would a person be able to gain entry and also lock the car when they leave ?????

thanks in advance

brendan

Caliden

I don't think it matters how close you are to the car when you lock it. It will still broadcast the lock signal.

The tech is out there to intercept lock signals but I've heard of stories from the U.S.

h3000

Yes it's very possible, there have been many reports of thieves using Code Grabbers to copy the code from your key which would allow them to gain entry to the car.

longhalloween

v240gltse wrote: »

Anyway onto my question how would a person be able to gain entry and also lock the car when they leave ?????

thanks in advance

brendan

Scanners can record the central locking signal from the key and duplicate it?

Is the signal to open the car the same as the signal to lock it?

JIdontknow

There was a scam before - you mentioned it there about scanners, that I heard of where someone had some sort of electronic scramblling device so as you clicked the remote to centrally lock the car it scrambled this signal, therefore you think your car is locked but when you physically check the doors, it isnt locked, then they get a minor when you go away to sneak around collecting the coins, valuables etc. They drive off then and he leaves and gets out short distance away. If the driver is caught, all he has is the scrambler device which happens to be illegal. If the young lad gets caught etc he is a minor so is more of less free to do it again thanks to the legal system here... Heard it happened someone I know, they copped it when they came out and car was open and a few others too, said it to reception who called cops and cops I think interupted them at another gym short time after or caught the driver with the device. I advise everyone to check door after remote locking just to be sure.

BigEejit

I thought that broadcast key codes changed with every unlock/lock?

Kenny Logins

So this foreign lad is smart enough to use technology to capture a 'secure' signal between key-fob and car, but not smart enough to notice his phone dropping from his pocket, yeah?

Guy:Incognito

BigEejit wrote: »

I thought that broadcast key codes changed with every unlock/lock?

They do. The last code that locked or unlocked the car won't work again.

corktina

Just what has his apparent race got to do with it? How would anyone know he wasn't Irish and why would it matter?

tom_tarbucket

corktina wrote: »

Just what has his apparent race got to do with it? How would anyone know he wasn't Irish and why would it matter?

oh stop being a devils advocate here. And Changing this thread in to something it shouldn't be. Back on topic now. End of.

corktina

devil's advocate? really?

Mikros

The code sent from the key fob can't just be replayed to open the car - modern systems use a rolling encrypted code that changes every time. However it is possible a person could jam the the signal so that the car wasn't actually locked. Afterwards maybe the car locks itself if left without a key in the ignition and the doors closed - I know Audi's will lock the doors in such a case as a security setting.

beauf

If you blip the car you'd notice it not arming. Unless you had it doing it silently.

kaahooters

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/02/27/car-thieves-break-into-cars-by-hacking-them-with-black-box/

It may be something like this.

keithclancy

I've seen that hi tech device alright

ironclaw

BigEejit wrote: »

I thought that broadcast key codes changed with every unlock/lock?

Two options here;

Either the car was never locked and jammed as it was being locked. Very easy to do, you could build one in about 10 mins if you were handy with a soldering iron. You would literally stick some noise at about 433MHz.

Or, as regards rolling codes, I wouldn't count on them. Assuming 32 bits (So 4,294,967,296 combinations) if you tried one every 10us, then it would take about 11 hours. Of course, people would say but I came back within an hour, I'm assuming 32 bits or worst case. I'd imagine most cars are 16 or 8 bits, which would drop that time considerably. At one code every 10ms, 16 bits will last 10 minutes and 8bits will last 2 seconds.

I'm not an expert on car alarms but given the recent BMW (and others) security holes, its not hard to see that they can be defeated relatively quickly. Anything wireless is inherently insecure.

visual

The most likely thing is the guy opened a door a little and block owners view of door ajar while they remote locked it.

Nothing high teck just brass neck. Thats why he was so close to car.

He put phone down on seat so his greedy sticky fingers could search for goodies and got spooked so hit central locking button and close door probably notice his phone on seat after but couldn't get back in without breaking a window and drawing attention.

If you stuck up a add phone found the idiot would probably try claim it back.

Mikros

ironclaw wrote: »

Or, as regards rolling codes, I wouldn't count on them. Assuming 32 bits (So 4,294,967,296 combinations) if you tried one every 10us, then it would take about 11 hours. Of course, people would say but I came back within an hour, I'm assuming 32 bits or worst case. I'd imagine most cars are 16 or 8 bits, which would drop that time considerably. At one code every 10ms, 16 bits will last 10 minutes and 8bits will last 2 seconds.

I'm not an expert on car alarms but given the recent BMW (and others) security holes, its not hard to see that they can be defeated relatively quickly. Anything wireless is inherently insecure.

Well for obvious reasons they don't release details of the rolling codes, but an older "KeeLoq" system developed in the mid 80's used by a lot of manufacturers had a 32 bit initialisation vector, so I think it's safe to say a 16 or 8 bit code is unlikely. And that's assuming the car security system will keep accepting attempts and not implement a lock out period after a number of failed attempts.

But that's not to say it's not possible through some other means!

ironclaw

Mikros wrote: »

Well for obvious reasons they don't release details of the rolling codes, but an older "KeeLoq" system developed in the mid 80's used by a lot of manufacturers had a 32 bit initialisation vector, so I think it's safe to say a 16 or 8 bit code is unlikely. And that's assuming the car security system will keep accepting attempts and not implement a lock out period after a number of failed attempts.

But that's not to say it's not possible through some other means!

Yeah, I'd say its moved on a good bit. Not an area I actively research. But its something there is serious money in.

mk1t49

Would it be posible the cellphone left in your automobile was to be used as a gps location device for your residence or place of employment. Maby the perpetrator found a set of keys from a house or office inside.Would it be posible for you to find where he lives by asking the guards to triangulate the signal of the cellphone good luck with it.

Del2005

visual wrote: »

The most likely thing is the guy opened a door a little and block owners view of door ajar while they remote locked it.

Nothing high teck just brass neck. Thats why he was so close to car.

He put phone down on seat so his greedy sticky fingers could search for goodies and got spooked so hit central locking button and close door probably notice his phone on seat after but couldn't get back in without breaking a window and drawing attention.

If you stuck up a add phone found the idiot would probably try claim it back.

I've heard that this is happening a good bit. They just pop the back door open a bit while the person isn't paying attention and then the doors won't lock. With the reduction in cars that make a noise when locking and even better for thieves the keyless cars that automatically lock, it's easy enough to happen, I keep meaning to put a little beeper into my central locking for this as I'm always walking back to check I locked the car

BigEejit

I dont know about the rest of ye, but my Honda makes a clunk when it locks ... it won't clunk until all the doors are closed. Of course the lights flash as well....

ironclaw

mk1t49 wrote: »

Would it be posible the cellphone left in your automobile was to be used as a gps location device for your residence or place of employment. Maby the perpetrator found a set of keys from a house or office inside.Would it be posible for you to find where he lives by asking the guards to triangulate the signal of the cellphone good luck with it.

Gardai have no interest in people giving exact locations of stolen iPhones by using Apps and other services on the phone itself. They are not going to go to this bother. The frightening thing is however that a two or three person team in Harcourt St could put a stop of phone crime overnight if such easy to implement and follow up techniques were actually embraced. There is absolutely no overhead in doing such analysis and it could be almost entirely automated. Same would apply for blocking stolen IMEI's etc. There is just no joined up thinking in this country.

I was robbed in San Francisco one time and the police said even with a partial IP address they would be able to track it to the house. And had they stolen a phone, they could track it even without any Apps onboard i.e. Old school triangulation (Which is kinda scary when you think about it) Best of luck doing that here.

Del2005 wrote: »

I've heard that this is happening a good bit. They just pop the back door open a bit while the person isn't paying attention and then the doors won't lock. With the reduction in cars that make a noise when locking and even better for thieves the keyless cars that automatically lock, it's easy enough to happen, I keep meaning to put a little beeper into my central locking for this as I'm always walking back to check I locked the car

Happened the folks in Spain and they would be very security conscience. Lights flash, doors make a lock sound but the door unhinged is not locked. Frighteningly easy to do

Kenny Logins

mk1t49 wrote: »

Would it be posible the cellphone left in your automobile was to be used as a gps location device for your residence or place of employment. Maby the perpetrator found a set of keys from a house or office inside.Would it be posible for you to find where he lives by asking the guards to triangulate the signal of the cellphone good luck with it.

They can triangulate the exact location of the phone by looking at it. :pac:

ironclaw

Kenny Logins wrote: »

They can triangulate the exact location of the phone by looking at it. :pac:

Well, you could review the records of cells the phone used. But that would probably take all of about 10 mins to run in a simulator and we couldn't ask the Gardai to be wasting their time on such.

franksm

ironclaw wrote: »

Gardai have no interest in people giving exact locations of stolen iPhones by using Apps and other services on the phone itself. They are not going to go to this bother. The frightening thing is however that a two or three person team in Harcourt St could put a stop of phone crime overnight if such easy to implement and follow up techniques were actually embraced....

That is a huge pity, I wonder is it that the Gardaí are just kept busy with more mundane shyte ? The PSNI in the North are advocating the use of trackers - along with the warning to let them do the followup !!

https://www.facebook.com/PSNI.Newry.Mourne/photos/a.519178558163944.1073741836.310456715702797/614395021975630/?type=1

^^ hope that link works, it should go to a post on Facebook with the detail

keithclancy

ironclaw wrote: »

Gardai have no interest in people giving exact locations of stolen iPhones by using Apps and other services on the phone itself. They are not going to go to this bother. The frightening thing is however that a two or three person team in Harcourt St could put a stop of phone crime overnight if such easy to implement and follow up techniques were actually embraced. There is absolutely no overhead in doing such analysis and it could be almost entirely automated. Same would apply for blocking stolen IMEI's etc. There is just no joined up thinking in this country.

I was robbed in San Francisco one time and the police said even with a partial IP address they would be able to track it to the house. And had they stolen a phone, they could track it even without any Apps onboard i.e. Old school triangulation (Which is kinda scary when you think about it) Best of luck doing that here.



Happened the folks in Spain and they would be very security conscience. Lights flash, doors make a lock sound but the door unhinged is not locked. Frighteningly easy to do

Its the reason why petty crime is so frequent in Ireland.
In Germany they take the smallest crimes as seriously as the big ones.

In Ireland they are under resourced and will only focus on low hanging fruit (Automated fines for speeding and such) or Stuff that will look good on the News.

BTW, In Ireland its completely possible to find the position of a phone to around 10 or 15 meters for the last 10-12 years at least, but you need a court order, which would not be worth it for the Gardai.

Guy:Incognito

ironclaw wrote: »

Happened the folks in Spain and they would be very security conscience. Lights flash, doors make a lock sound but the door unhinged is not locked. Frighteningly easy to do

Depends on the car I suppose. If a door is ajar on the missus Scenic you can hear it trying to lock but immediately unlock again and the lights don't flash.
My S80 wont do anything at all if all the doors aren't shut properly.

tom_tarbucket

corktina wrote: »

devil's advocate? really?

Yes

P.S. Sorry for not practising what I preach !

Zcott

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Yes.

-10 points for reviving dead thread.

djimi

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

Yes.

Im not sure that you know what devils advocate means...

tom_tarbucket

djimi wrote: »

Im not sure that you know what devils advocate means...

You must be so learned and intellectual and you are going to correct me on the true meaning of this phrase that only very smart people can truly comprehend.

the culture of deference

A few months ago in Tesco maynooth,

A gang of ....

non nationals .

.... were using mobile phone cameras on zoom to video people entering their credit card pin numbers.

Then they would follow people to their cars and casually distract them while another team member would steal only the credit card used from their handbag or purse. Most people hadn't realised for days that the card was gone

Caliden

tom_tarbucket wrote: »

You must be so learned and intellectual and you are going to correct me on the true meaning of this phrase that only very smart people can truly comprehend.

Yes.

mloc123

the culture of deference wrote: »

A few months ago in Tesco maynooth,

A gang of ....

non nationals .

.... were using mobile phone cameras on zoom to video people entering their credit card pin numbers.

Then they would follow people to their cars and casually distract them while another team member would steal only the credit card used from their handbag or purse. Most people hadn't realised for days that the card was gone

I assume they were stood about 1ft away from the people to record the PIN... phone zoom being digital only.. and ****.

ironclaw

the culture of deference wrote: »

A few months ago in Tesco maynooth,

A gang of ....

non nationals .

.... were using mobile phone cameras on zoom to video people entering their credit card pin numbers.

Why does it matter a dime where someone is from? Do people assume all Irish are above board and completely kosher? Nonsense. Some of the least trustworthy people I know are as 'emerald' as the come.

Also, that story is pub talk as best of luck keeping a camera phone steady enough and zoom'd enough to capture a pin. If someone is that obvious entering their PIN, they frankly deserve it. Its like email scams, by this stage if you fall for it then you should probably be wrapped in bubble wrap and kept under constant adult supervision.

CreepingDeath

the culture of deference wrote: »

A few months ago in Tesco maynooth,

A gang of ....

non nationals .

.... were using mobile phone cameras on zoom to video people entering their credit card pin numbers.

Then they would follow people to their cars and casually distract them while another team member would steal only the credit card used from their handbag or purse. Most people hadn't realised for days that the card was gone

Thanks for raising this, I shop in Tesco Maynooth.
The credit card numeric keypad is raised above the packing area of the checkout and would be very visible.
Someone could pretend to be taking a call on the neighbouring checkout and may well get the pin.

ironclaw wrote: »

Why does it matter a dime where someone is from?

Because different groups tend to use different tactics to rob you.
Some tactics may work in a country until they get wise, so they move to softer target countries.

ironclaw wrote: »

If someone is that obvious entering their PIN, they frankly deserve it.

Mothers holding a baby or screaming child in their arms while trying to type their pin in, when the rest of the queue is giving them the stinkeye for holding them up wouldn't agree.

They don't expect to be robbed in front of a load of people in a shop with security guards at the door.

the culture of deference

mloc123 wrote: »

I assume they were stood about 1ft away from the people to record the PIN... phone zoom being digital only.. and ****.

The tesco video footage showed that the criminal was 14 feet away from the till the victim used. The victim had to engage with tesco because their bank refused to believe they hadnt wrote the pin down.