Mercedes SEC

lomb

Bought a 1983 Mercedes 500 SEC on ebay the other day from the UK. Going to get it next week. Has a full MOT so couldn't be too bad, however seller says it needs the front subframe welding. Realistically Im thinking it might need another one. What will a subframe cost? Would subframes out of breaker cars be in good order? Do Mercedes sell new ones?
Roll on the classic road tax on a 'modern' 5 liter v8:D

mattroche

God Luck with you purchase. I saw it and was tempted, but I asked myself if the sub frame was bad, how did it pass a M.O.T? and what other rust problems does it have? as I recall, it has had quite a number of new parts already fitted. If you look around you should be able to get a S/H sub frame without too much bother. The car is now ok for the vintage tax, as it is over 30yrs old.

lomb

Thanks Il post pics when I get it. Ive been looking for a 5L Merc for quite a while and although I can afford it the 1800 roadtax is a killer so the classic route seems the way forward. Im still not sure about the colour but it was too good to pass up. Yes as you say its an unknown but sort of a known also with the MOT. All these cars are rusty somewhere even the 10k mint examples.
I have my one way flight booked to Bristol on Friday and the 200 mile drive to Holyhead should reveal whether I got a good one or not. I have AA full tow me home to Ireland should something go wrong.
All the ones in Ireland are newer than the Vintage bracket Ive seen or overpriced so its the only way to get one at a good price which if not suitable I shall sell on. What Im really after is a black 560 SEC on vintage tax and probably on LPG(would be a shame not to use it). It will be a couple of years yet though, I think the 560s were 1985 /86 on so under 30y yet.

I posted a while back about a test drive on a 1985 500 sl which was a pile of scrap and very unimpressive to me in engineering terms and that was selling for 5 times the SEC. Naysayers said it was a good design but a 70s one and to get a w126 if I wanted something better. The power level of the 5l seemed to me to have less power than a 1liter fiesta (blown head gasket? or normal?), the fuel tank flap had water behind it with no drain, it wasn't rust proofed or designed to last like Porsches of the era so most are rotten including the restored ones, handled poorly , felt my head was going to explode with the smell of unburnt fuel in the cabin,and the interior wasn't great. Lets hope the SEC changes my views on Mercs and holds its badge the way it looks.

MercMad

Well good luck with your purchase. They are fantastic cars. I have a client who runs both a 380SEC and a 500SE on vintage. As you know rust is the killer. The UK MOT, well lets just say its better that have it than not, but you may still need to go through them.

It would be interesting to find out what wrong with the subframe, the R107 380SL's had a recall due to cracks but I'd be surprised if that's the issue. Other than that its either rust or damage. Best to just go through it when you get the car home, assuming its safe to drive. I suppose you could (or probably have) established that prior to your trip.

If you do need to replace it its not a huge job, no special tools, but its heavy and awkward. You will have to support that heavy engine, and its awkward, so best to have a spare pair of hands. I expect it just needs welding where the two halves are pressed together. The salt has just deteriorated that.

Best of luck and throw up some picture when you can.

lomb

Thanks for that, Ive never driven one before but they look very modern and frankly fell for the 4.5v8 in the 450sel I drove so it should be good. I shall post a full review when I get her.

Dades

Best of luck with it. A heck of a lot of car if you get a good one. Did that one way trip into Bristol and up to Holyhead myself in 2009 - enjoy!

Look forward to the pics.

lomb

Dades wrote: »

Best of luck with it. A heck of a lot of car if you get a good one. Did that one way trip into Bristol and up to Holyhead myself in 2009 - enjoy!

Look forward to the pics.

Thanks, I have a feeling its a good one (relatively/lets hope!)

mattroche

Perhaps it would be worth paying the V.R.T (e200) & re- register it, put it in for a N.C.T. and see what they need done to pass it. If you are driving to Holyhead, avoid the A5, it is a horrible road. M5, M6 to Chester, and A55 to Holyhead, motorway/ dual carriageway all the way Safe Driving, and Good Luck with you new toy!!

lomb

mattroche wrote: »

Perhaps it would be worth paying the V.R.T (e200) & re- register it, put it in for a N.C.T. and see what they need done to pass it. If you are driving to Holyhead, avoid the A5, it is a horrible road. M5, M6 to Chester, and A55 to Holyhead, motorway/ dual carriageway all the way Safe Driving, and Good Luck with you new toy!!

Its in Swansea so Il have to have a look at getting it back but thanks for the tips. Good thinking about the NCT . Il do that first before getting work done on it.
Im actually really looking forward to it. Ive always wanted a Merc, something about living past Motor Distributors as a kid with the huge spinning Merc star on top and seeing it every day on way to school/college.

lomb

So I just got back with her this morning after putting 250 miles on on motorways and back roads of south mid and north Wales and I can confirm it is the best/most fun car I have driven. The engine and gearbox feels as if its only run in-smooth as silk, virtually no body corrosion other than 2 small spots above the arch that are surface only, looks like it was built yesterday, perfect paint/chrome. When floored the 5 liter V8 punches the car forward like a train. It was dry stored for 12 years. Even the electric sunroof and aircon works. The factory audio system which was upgraded for 1000 I think is amazing for a tape player. Very very loud/bassy and clear. The original receipt is with the car from 1983 for 31000 sterling from Mercedes Woking including optional extras (90 quid each for seat heating and 1000 for the audio system I think) . The drivers seat and springing seems unworn and very well engineered as are the seat belt robot presenters. The aircon system seems ingenious with the fresh air vents. The leather and paint are very high quality. Ive seen 2006 E classes with ripped seats from wear and tear. This car seems to be built like a tank. Any Irish cars Ive test driven(1985 500sl, 1979 450sel) are very very poor in comparison. No corrosion in the common spots ie rear parcel shelf, the boot upholstery and floor seems absolutely like it left the factory. Arches 100%

Whats bad-front+ rear pads and discs need doing (noise when braking sounds like pad backplate is touching disc or disc cracked Ive had noise before ), the headlight wipers don't work Il have to see, headlining sagging in rear common issue, Il have to have the subframe looked at, steering wheel is two inches off center and about 2 inches of play either side where nothing happens, probably a couple of worn balljoints. I hope its not the rack. The steering stills feels very accurate. The drivers seat heater an optional extra doesn't work the switch is permanently lit on but nothing happening.


Anyone thinking of buying a classic my advice is don't mess around get the best model from the best make(in 1983 at least). The 560 should be some beast but I think I will keep the 500. The Labrador blue is growing on me.
Pics soon once polished.

Edit -one other bad point, it takes 90 liters so that's 140 euros to fill the tank, but it probably does around 18 smiles per gallon with plenty of fun:) Ive already put around that in the tank:(

11wingnut

Happy new car,i hope to see it at a show or a run. Can i suggest you join the Mercedes club. they have a few members with 500's and 560's and some very knowledgeable members .

Kenny Logins

Pics?

sogood

Well done, congrats and happy motoring. Seems like the fulfilment of a dream!

lomb

11wingnut wrote: »

Happy new car,i hope to see it at a show or a run. Can i suggest you join the Mercedes club. they have a few members with 500's and 560's and some very knowledgeable members .

Already done, I got my membership pack,sticker and Gazette magazine yesterday in the post yesterday. Will be at meets in due course for sure. This is the ebay listing, Ill post my own pics tomorrow probably. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-500-SEC-Coupe-1983-/191127271060?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT&_trksid=p2047675.l2557&nma=true&si=JR8iJN14EXQF0qN%252FO%252Fo%252FyLO8M9Q%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Whats impressed me most for the year apart from it being obvious it was designed by engineers is the smoothness of the engine and isolation. This goes for at full power and at idle. You wouldn't know it was running in the lower rev ranges. The brochure came with the car and points out the engine has digital rev control at idle, transistorised contactless ignition, electronic fuel injection and a 28% fuel saving on the 5l 231bhp unit versus the previous model. I wouldn't have felt bad if I took it out of the dealership brand new and paid the full price for it. Its that good.

lomb

A few pics attached. A lovely car but being 30 years old it probably needs 1k spent on minor rust repairs and steering wear as well as changing the rubber seals at the base of the windows. Anyone here know how easy that is as that and the bodywork will be the first task after registering and ncting it.

Silvera

Best of luck with the car! Look's like a good 'un!

unkel

Well wear, looking clean!

The W126 saloon is my favourite S-class and the coupé is my favourite Mercedes of all time. Would love to own one too

lomb

unkel wrote: »

Well wear, looking clean!

The W126 saloon is my favourite S-class and the coupé is my favourite Mercedes of all time. Would love to own one too

Thanks, it is a fine car for its time or even this time. Even the way the coupe is upholstered on the seats, carpets as well as door cards it was a car way ahead of its time in terms of taste and style. Magazines Ive read regarded it as the best car in the world when launched and Ive read the C126 is regarded as the Mercedes of all Benz by enthusiasts.

mattroche

A GREAT buy, looks good, very best of luck with it.

Dades

Good price for what you've got! Enjoy.
Best of luck in the NCT - hope they give you an easy ride.

Always loved Bundt wheels even though they are a hoor to keep clean.

lomb

The car is a bit of a handful in the wet as I just found out. All I did was nail it on a turn into a side road and the back end stepped out and then the other way when I braked. It does have crap Chinese tyres on it but Il be more careful in it. ESP has made cars these days as safe as houses but the classics obviously dont have it. The engine makes a lovely roar when floored its addictive and it spins its wheels easily in the wet ,loads of low down power! Im thinking the 300bhp 560 might be madness in this chassis.

unkel

lomb wrote: »

The car is a bit of a handful in the wet as I just found out.

All RWD cars of that era are like that, especially the ones with a bit of power.

Glad you like the engine. What's not to love about big V8s?

macplaxton

lomb wrote: »

All I did was nail it on a turn into a side road and the back end stepped out and then the other way when I braked.

The trick is not to brake. Back off, steer in direction of skid and don't steer too much.

Cheap teflon tyres (and dried out old hard ones) can be fun if you like that sort of thing. I prefer to eat beans on toast and have good ones.

Bigus

lomb wrote: »

The car is a bit of a handful in the wet as I just found out. All I did was nail it on a turn into a side road and the back end stepped out and then the other way when I braked. It does have crap Chinese tyres on it but Il be more careful in it. ESP has made cars these days as safe as houses but the classics obviously dont have it. The engine makes a lovely roar when floored its addictive and it spins its wheels easily in the wet ,loads of low down power! Im thinking the 300bhp 560 might be madness in this chassis.

Ayrton Senna used to drive his sideways with an elbow stuck out the window, brush up lad !

MercMad

Lovely car and the colour is quite nice and distinctive. These cars do not have a steering rack but a steering box instead. They can be adjusted but only so much, and if "over done" they can wear prematurely. On the 4.5 & 5.0 W107 chassis cars the adjuster is a hoor to get to, you have to undo the mounts and lift the engine. Not sure about the C126 though.

I would change the tyres as a matter of policy, even when new these cars were quite fussy on the type. Modern tyres, of a decent brand, will transform the ride and handling, especially if you have older, hard, tyres on it now. My 300SE will go sideways in the damp around every roundabout under ANY kind of throttle, but with the decent tyres its perfect. I have driven a customers 500SE, low mileage car, with good tyres and it feels like a new car although applying throttle in a tight bend or roundabout does make it......"fun".

You can disassemble those fog lights and clean them up too. When checking the front suspension/steering for play make sure you adjust the wheel bearings correctly first. These can exhibit a lot of movement before giving any noise and can make mis-diagnosis of component wear a real possibility.

From memory those window seals are straightforward enough but you do have to remove the door panels, and for the rear ones you have to remove the side panels. If I recall correctly that means removing the rear seats, which usually means removing the front seats too, to get them out, which means disconnecting the vacuum and the electrics. It sounds like a big deal but its all straight forward, just allow yourself plenty of time and space to do it. Let me check all of that first though as its a while since I've done one.

Best of luck with it and welcome to the Mercedes Benz Club.

lomb

MercMad wrote: »

Lovely car and the colour is quite nice and distinctive. These cars do not have a steering rack but a steering box instead. They can be adjusted but only so much, and if "over done" they can wear prematurely. On the 4.5 & 5.0 W107 chassis cars the adjuster is a hoor to get to, you have to undo the mounts and lift the engine. Not sure about the C126 though.

I would change the tyres as a matter of policy, even when new these cars were quite fussy on the type. Modern tyres, of a decent brand, will transform the ride and handling, especially if you have older, hard, tyres on it now. My 300SE will go sideways in the damp around every roundabout under ANY kind of throttle, but with the decent tyres its perfect. I have driven a customers 500SE, low mileage car, with good tyres and it feels like a new car although applying throttle in a tight bend or roundabout does make it......"fun".

You can disassemble those fog lights and clean them up too. When checking the front suspension/steering for play make sure you adjust the wheel bearings correctly first. These can exhibit a lot of movement before giving any noise and can make mis-diagnosis of component wear a real possibility.

From memory those window seals are straightforward enough but you do have to remove the door panels, and for the rear ones you have to remove the side panels. If I recall correctly that means removing the rear seats, which usually means removing the front seats too, to get them out, which means disconnecting the vacuum and the electrics. It sounds like a big deal but its all straight forward, just allow yourself plenty of time and space to do it. Let me check all of that first though as its a while since I've done one.

Best of luck with it and welcome to the Mercedes Benz Club.

Thanks , theres around 3 inches of play in the steering. I read 1 inch was within spec. That will be the first thing to sort out after the NCT . I guess its balljoints or bearings or the box. I dont see why the box would need adjusting unless its had it? I think a box is around 400 euros + labour. Hopefully its just the joints.
I think I got lucky in that their values are between 3-9 stg for a good-very good one where a rough one is worth around 1k. So not alot paid for her.

hi5

All the best car companies who used steering boxes called the play the 'sneeze factor';)

For what you paid even if costs a couple of grand more to put it right, you'll still be quids in.

lomb

hi5 wrote: »

All the best car companies who used steering boxes called the play the 'sneeze factor';)

For what you paid even if costs a couple of grand more to put it right, you'll still be quids in.

Luckily the underside, wheelarches, boot, rear parcel shelf, engine bay is clean and rust free although that remains to be seen on the subframe. Il have the rest sorted in stages hopefully in 6 months it will be somewhere between average and concourse.

MercMad

Its just the nature of the box that there has to be some freeplay/backlash. As they get older it increases, but thankfully they can be adjusted, but even when new there was a bit of play in them.

Once you have no rust issues you have basically a good car. Mechanical issues are fairly simple to sort. Have you looked at the subframe yet ?

jetfiremuck

As most of you know its a great feeling after buying a 'new' car that though it might sputter an dshake when you buy i that after a long drive the engine gets better and better and the initial fears dissapar. Good luck. Great to see a v8 import.

lomb

MercMad wrote: »

Once you have no rust issues you have basically a good car. Mechanical issues are fairly simple to sort. Have you looked at the subframe yet ?

I havent yet tbh. I was going to put it through the NCT first before sorting out the problems. I know it has a recent MOT so its probably just minor corrosion. Looking at the car it hasnt really suffered tin rot badly. MercMad if you want to have a shot in it/ have a look at the subframe your welcome to.

Frankly I love it, with the steering freeplay which I think is normalish its about an inch when driving forward(not at rest) its like steering a boat. A very fast accurate boat but a boat nevertheless.

The V8 is addictive. It will light the rear tyres up in the wet in 3rd and will happily oversteer with the tyres lit up on roundabouts controllably in the dry. To be honest I just enjoy driving it slowly with the peruvian andes music tape that was in it when I bought it but if you want to its a hooligan in a very elegant gentlemans suit. From what Ive seen modern mercs dont hold a candle to it in engineering.Even the huge springs counterbalancing the bonnet are something to see. Compared to a modern merc with puny pneumatic struts you would just laugh.

Bigus

Lomb , have you noticed how well these Mercs smooth out ramps , so much so you can fly over speed bumps ?

SilverBell

Lovely car, very well done. Good price, a bit of an adventure, and I'll bet you had a silly grin the whole run back from the UK (and still do heh heh!...). The colour and interior are also very distinctive. I find with all the rear wheel drive mercs, decent tyres helps tame the back end.
The V8 should be very reliable. Lots of experience on here, and likewise on the yank Merc forums.
Gerard

mattroche

Lomb, have you seen the gold Merc 500 on D.D., its on just over a month, @ E2650. seems good value. What your view, perhaps you have already seen it.?

lomb

Bigus wrote: »

Lomb , have you noticed how well these Mercs smooth out ramps , so much so you can fly over speed bumps ?

Absolutely, amazingly comfortable cars. Between the seat springing and the suspension they are great cruisers. Speed bumps are happily taken at speed now:D

lomb

SilverBell wrote: »

Lovely car, very well done. Good price, a bit of an adventure, and I'll bet you had a silly grin the whole run back from the UK (and still do heh heh!...). The colour and interior are also very distinctive. I find with all the rear wheel drive mercs, decent tyres helps tame the back end.
The V8 should be very reliable. Lots of experience on here, and likewise on the yank Merc forums.
Gerard

I sure do, great car and surprisingly low price. Everyone I tell is amazed how cheap it was . It cost more than a house in 1983 when very few people could afford new cars it was 6 times the cost of a normal one. It is also somewhat special being a Coupe although the Convertibles are always going to be more so as well as rarer meaning the SEC is not going to be appreciating anytime soon. I can still fix mine up to a point as it will be worth more than I paid for it as its done up. Il use up the old rear tyres safely ,don't worry:D

lomb

mattroche wrote: »

Lomb, have you seen the gold Merc 500 on D.D., its on just over a month, @ E2650. seems good value. What your view, perhaps you have already seen it.?

The grille is poor and headlight wipers seem to have snapped off other than that it seems mint. Tbh although an amazing car in its own way the 500 SEL isn't my cup of tea. It doesn't have the classic lines of the SEC. You(or I at least) can stare at the SEC for hours if I wanted and admire a beautiful sculpture. The SEL just like todays S class was always going to be a workhorse family car to show ones progress and wealth but was never going to be admired as anything special. I suppose who would buy one today? Certainly not someone who wants to show their wealth ,maybe a limo company? If it was put on LPG and classic taxed it could be used everyday by someone as a fine machine but youd have to be a bit out there with everyone looking at co2 and diesels and pulling up in a 5 liter Merc:cool::eek:

mattroche

Thanks Lomb, it is certainly a lot of car for the money, but I agree, it is not in the same visual class as yours. Both have + and -. Good luck with your car, I hope you get a lot of pleasure out of it. Perhaps we will meet someday at a rally.!

Beautiful car ..very jealous

Love that era off merc

lomb

A guy caught me staring inside his 1970 220 ce coupe automatic (automatic written in large writing on back don't you just love vintage care!)
He took me for a spin in it after I told him I had an SEC. Very impressive for a 44 year old car. He said he had the original invoice for more than a semi detached house with it. What amazed me was the interior and exterior was like it left the factory but there were quite a lot of bad sounding mechanical sounds coming from it from various places. He reakoned it was worth 18 during the boom and 9 now. Strikes me as quite costly. A lovely car though why don t they make cars that nice now?

commited

Looks like you got a bit of a bargain

unkel

lomb wrote: »

why don t they make cars that nice now?

Cause nobody would pay €300k (the price of a semi-detached house) for one

lomb

So the car has just been registered (finally) . The DVLA had the VIN down wrong without the first three letters and the NCTS refused to register it so after some letter writing to the DVLA and a corrected certificate of export the car finally has the reg 83D120012. I like the symeterical part of the plate but that was just luck.
I thought thought we were rid of the 120xxxx series of numbers?
So I have ordered 4 new Nankang tires off eiretyres for 57e each delivered which have a wet grip of B. Anything has got to be better than the hopeless 13 year old unistars on it. The back end has stepped out accelerating at 70 mph in a straight line on a wet road. Frankly I value my life too much too carry on with them thread or not.
Ive also ordered some leather dye to sort the interior as well as new bonnet insulation. The leather has faded from the original light brown to more light while the door card leather are unfaded. So its annoying. Ive ordered the dynamixdyes which are well regarded for 115 euros. The bonnet insulation was crumbling and looked bad so that was 100 euros on ebay. Ive also bought from adverts.ie 2 foglights as the originals were cracked , headlight wipers, ashtray chrome insert, toolkit that was missing. It all adds up and my budget to sort it is 2k euros so Il update the thread as we go along.
So far Ive spent around 500 euros on parts/tires and apart from fitting them need cash to sort the body.
It looks like Il chemically treat the rust prior to sending to a body shop as they wont waste their time doing it and probably spray over some filler.
Other things to replace are the 4 side window seals, head lining, sort the front windscreen leak by having it removed and rebonded. Front pads, front disc back plates, steering box tightening, possibly some bushes ,full service,subframe sorting,aircon regassing . I reakon Il come in under budget and that will give me a very nice SEC for under 3500 euros on 55 euro tax , speaking of which as I made the mistake of registering the car on the 30th of the month they back charged me tax arrears of 1 month as the disc started yesterday. The arrears were 5 euros on a 5l v8, happy days:D
The SEC is a funny blend of modern car with classic styling. If I were to design a car it would definately look like the SEC, so its a keeper I think.

Ps Im being a bit generous towards it. In the first few posts I reakoned it would take 1k to sort it which it would without tyres, but If im spending 1300 with tyres I might as well pump in another 700 to make it very good. Sec values in the UK are at the 3500 euro level for a good one and 10000 for a mint one so it would be mean not to spend up to the good level and still not loose money.

w124man

Be careful of adjusting the steering box ..... it could also be the idler arm that needs bushes. Whats the body like under the rear screen?

lomb

w124man wrote: »

Be careful of adjusting the steering box ..... it could also be the idler arm that needs bushes. Whats the body like under the rear screen?

Body is 100% looking upwards in boot, either the rear screen never leaked or more likely the old boy who owned it for 15-20 or so years who through ill health sold it to the guy I got it from had it removed and rebonded. He also replaced the front grill with a receipt for 300 and kept it in immaculate order for its age so obviously had pride in it. Looking at it you can see why. He must have had no interest in tyres though the receipt for the 4 unistars is there for 29 quid a tyre from 2001 .Saying that Michelins under their old timer models(205/70/14s) run at 385 euros a tyre so isn't it no wonder.(who pays this?) There is small rust under the doors and spots on body but Il chemically treat that prior to have it touch up resprayed. The general paint is 9/10 for any year no swirls chips or anything.

Its had a new radiator, battery, full exhaust system , 2 front brake callipers in the last few years so theres a lot done already.

Tell me more about the steering were about to jack it up to take a look next week. Where is the idler arm bush and how do you know its had it? It would probably make sense to change the steering bushes prior to adjusting the box. Would you have a parts list? I have access to the Merc parts facility from the club I think must take a look.

w124man

lomb wrote: »

Body is 100% looking upwards in boot, either the rear screen never leaked or more likely the old boy who owned it for 15-20 or so years who through ill health sold it to the guy I got it from had it removed and rebonded.

You need to look under the bottom panel that goes across the bottom on the rear window. That where they rust badly and its a mucky job. Run your fingers underneath the bottom of the window from inside the boot and see if there is any rust there

lomb wrote: »

Michelins under their old timer models(205/70/14s) run at 385 euros a tyre so isn't it no wonder.(who pays this?)

You should!

lomb wrote: »

Tell me more about the steering were about to jack it up to take a look next week. Where is the idler arm bush and how do you know its had it? It would probably make sense to change the steering bushes prior to adjusting the box. Would you have a parts list? I have access to the Merc parts facility from the club I think must take a look.

The idler arm is opposite the steering box on the other side of the car. Work the steering and you will see play if is knackered and if it is do it first. Steering boxes rarely need adjustment with small miles. If you are a Mercedes Club Member join the forum and ask your questions there. There are members there who know these cars inside out and might even know your car.

Dades

Some updated pics would be welcome!

lomb

w124man wrote: »

You should!

Are you mad? I looked at it and they are aimed at Ferrari owners who want 149mph speed rating! I can understand paying and am happy paying a premium but a reputable tyre from Nankang is 57 and a premium tyre from a European manufacturer is 6 times that. Too much!

lomb

After having the 4 Nankangs fitted and driving in the pouring rain I can confirm the handling is transformed. Gone is the breakway oversteer that was there before on the slightest provocation.
Can strongly recommend Nankang now to anyone for their classic tire size where premium brands cost many times as much. Speed rated at 130mph too.