Switching job for less money

magoo84

Hey everybody,

I'm doing development for a startup that's struggling to make any money - we've only got a few months funding left and there's no sign of any increase in uptake happening. I was originally hanging around out of a sense of loyalty to the founders, but I don't think they've been forthcoming about the exact state of the business, and the ideas they've proposed to rectify the situation and develop the business are just off the wall, so I'm planning on leaving soon.

I was offered a job in a company last week for a role that I find much more interesting than the one I'm currently in, in a better location and in a much more established company, but it comes with less responsibility and I'll probably have to take a pay cut to the tune of 5-10K at least, so I'm debating whether or not to go for it. I didn't originally apply for the position I'm working in now, but in the interview I was offered a more senior position with more money, so I went for it as anyone would.


On paper, everything about the new job looks great, and if there was a good chance I'd be able to progress in a year or two up to a more senior position I would take the hit, but a part of me is thinking it'd be a bad move nonetheless, so I was hoping if anyone else has been in a similar position, and could tell what they did about it?

Thanks

zig

Id take it, there seems to be alot of other positives outside of the money, and from the way you describe the company you're in now, it makes that decision easier.

And as you say, you may have the opportunity again to progress into that position, only with a decent company this time.

Raging_Ninja

magoo84 wrote: »

Hey everybody,

I'm doing development for a startup that's struggling to make any money - we've only got a few months funding left and there's no sign of any increase in uptake happening. I was originally hanging around out of a sense of loyalty to the founders, but I don't think they've been forthcoming about the exact state of the business, and the ideas they've proposed to rectify the situation and develop the business are just off the wall, so I'm planning on leaving soon.

I was offered a job in a company last week for a role that I find much more interesting than the one I'm currently in, in a better location and in a much more established company, but it comes with less responsibility and I'll probably have to take a pay cut to the tune of 5-10K at least, so I'm debating whether or not to go for it. I didn't originally apply for the position I'm working in now, but in the interview I was offered a more senior position with more money, so I went for it as anyone would.


On paper, everything about the new job looks great, and if there was a good chance I'd be able to progress in a year or two up to a more senior position I would take the hit, but a part of me is thinking it'd be a bad move nonetheless, so I was hoping if anyone else has been in a similar position, and could tell what they did about it?

Thanks

Recruiters in the future might look at you and say "whats wrong with him that for the next job he took such a big pay cut?" Just be ready for that.

ChRoMe

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

Recruiters in the future might look at you and say "whats wrong with him that for the next job he took such a big pay cut?" Just be ready for that.

Recruiter will only know you took a pay cut if you tell them!

magoo84

Thanks for the replies folks. A recruiter may infer the difference in seniority levels from the job descriptions, but hopefully I'd end up staying there for several years at least so that I wouldn't have to deal with that question.

If you mean "recruitment agencies" when you say recruiters, rather than internal company HR, it won't be a problem anyway as I avoid agencies like the plague, given the experiences I've had with them before.

The other thing I forgot was that any salary decrease I take will have been taxed at 41% anyway, so that will soften the blow too somewhat.

The Corinthian

Yes. I've gone from senior management positions, to more junior positions, or taken pay cuts when moving jobs, or simelar in the past. How it looks on your CV depends upon a number of things.

No one knows you've taken a pay cut unless you tell them. So going from one job to another, at the same level, for less pay is not going to make a difference to your CV. Only a change in seniority or role will be visible.

If you're only 'lowering' yourself by a minor amount, then don't worry about it. You'll presumably be in the new role for a while, by which stage you'll likely rise in the ranks anyway (even nominally), and that's what will appear on your CV when you're looking for your next job - that is, if you're now going from team lead to developer, there's a good chance you'll be a team lead again in a year or two.

I also mentioned nominally, because job titles can be played around with and employers are generally happy to do this, especially in smaller firms - after all, it's a 'free' way to keep your staff happy and has long been used as a way to avoid salary increases, by employers.

Finally your seniority dropping can make sense in some cases; going from a more senior position in a start-up to a more junior one in a blue-chip, for example. Or when going from a permanent role to contract (the unwritten rule there is contracts are about money, not really about career progression). Or when moving country.

Ultimately, there is both time and opportunity to limit any negative impact to an apparent 'lowering' of your career level, and as to salary, that's not an issue because no one knows what it is but you.

Sparks

magoo84 wrote: »

A recruiter may infer the difference in seniority levels from the job descriptions

I'm not sure that's even possible in the real world, though recruiters seem to discount such niceties at times, at least in my experience (which I'm willing to admit seems to have been on the far end of the graph).

I've taken a paycut once for a new job, of a few percent (not that many), and in return wound up basicly running the project myself. From that point of view it wasn't a bad move, I certainly learnt a lot more and internal raises regained the loss after a year, but as a cautionary codicil, some of what I had been promised as "intangible" benefits never materialised, so while my original cost-benefit analysis looked good at the start, by the end when assumptions were replaced with data, it was a far more marginal call and could have been much worse. It's one of those times when I really should have kept more Dilbert in my head:

magoo84

Thanks for the replies guys. I've been offered a different role this time working as a mobile app and web developer. There are plenty of things to like such as a great city centre location, reduced commuting times, more project ownership, and a huge learning potential working on new technologies.

The downsides are that I'll have to take a 10K pay cut which isn't great at all, I'm not sure how much more secure the role than the one I'm in and the hours are slightly longer. I'm having a difficult time deciding what to do, as any recruiters I've dealt with have said I'll be likely be offered the same salary as I am being offered in this job. It sucks because although I have nearly 6 years experience, it's 3 years in one place, 7 months in another, and a year and a half elsewhere, so I haven't yet had the opportunity to truly specialise. Then again, by specialising, you risk pigeonholing yourself.

I have to make a decision by tomorrow, and would love someone else's insights.
Thanks

John_Mc

magoo84 wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys. I've been offered a different role this time working as a mobile app and web developer. There are plenty of things to like such as a great city centre location, reduced commuting times, more project ownership, and a huge learning potential working on new technologies.

The downsides are that I'll have to take a 10K pay cut which isn't great at all, I'm not sure how much more secure the role than the one I'm in and the hours are slightly longer. I'm having a difficult time deciding what to do, as any recruiters I've dealt with have said I'll be likely be offered the same salary as I am being offered in this job. It sucks because although I have nearly 6 years experience, it's 3 years in one place, 7 months in another, and a year and a half elsewhere, so I haven't yet had the opportunity to truly specialise. Then again, by specialising, you risk pigeonholing yourself.

I have to make a decision by tomorrow, and would love someone else's insights.
Thanks

Congrats on the job offer

It depends what money you're on now, but it's fairly likely given the low "high" income tax band @ 32k, that the 10k is taxed at 52%. That means the difference is €400 a month less in your pay packet

It sounds like you'll be a lot happier in life with the new role though, and the experience gained will make your more employable in the future. I don't think you will be pigeon-holing yourself, I actually think it's to the contrary with mobile app development.

If it were me, I'd do it for a year with the role and see how it goes. You can find another job with higher pay because of your experience, or make a case with your employer that you're worth more money.

Colonel Panic

60 to 50 or 50 to 40 would be an easier cut to take than 40 to 30.

John_Mc

Colonel Panic wrote: »

60 to 50 or 50 to 40 would be an easier cut to take than 40 to 30.

Defo, 40-30 would be a huge difference

The Corinthian

magoo84 wrote: »

I've been offered a different role this time working as a mobile app and web developer. There are plenty of things to like such as a great city centre location, reduced commuting times, more project ownership, and a huge learning potential working on new technologies.

People not only take pay cuts, but take unpaid sabbaticals and pay fees to do higher level courses that will add to their resume. Consider this an investment, rather than a pay cut.

The downsides are that I'll have to take a 10K pay cut which isn't great at all, I'm not sure how much more secure the role than the one I'm in and the hours are slightly longer. I'm having a difficult time deciding what to do, as any recruiters I've dealt with have said I'll be likely be offered the same salary as I am being offered in this job.

I'd imagine that it's much more secure than a company about to go to the wall. It only feels less secure because it's uncharted territory - perfectly normal fear.

Upside: Excellent experience, company with a future longer than six months, good location.
Downside: Pays 10k less.

Unless your present salary is 20k, I'd say go for it.

magoo84

The Corinthian wrote: »

People not only take pay cuts, but take unpaid sabbaticals and pay fees to do higher level courses that will add to their resume. Consider this an investment, rather than a pay cut.

I'd imagine that it's much more secure than a company about to go to the wall. It only feels less secure because it's uncharted territory - perfectly normal fear.

Upside: Excellent experience, company with a future longer than six months, good location.
Downside: Pays 10k less.

Unless your present salary is 20k, I'd say go for it.

In the end I declined the offer, because the company couldn't offer me any more security / visibility than what I had where I am now, or a guarantee of progression. As well, the role had no benefits like health/pension which I have currently, so it would amount to a bigger pay cut than 10K, which I'm not willing to absorb. I may just have to stick it out here for a few more months, see where we're at maybe October/November, and if nothing has improved by then, I'll be on the lookout.

seamus

Don't be afraid to get a little down and dirty with your existing employer. They're a small company presumably doing software development. Developers are rare as hen's teeth at the moment, and if you're a senior member of a small team, your loss could be a huge setback to them, which they can't afford if they're in a difficult situation.

So don't be afraid to be straight with them and tell them that you're concerned about the future of the company and the security of your employment. They'll read between the lines and understand that you're really telling them that you will jump if a good offer comes along, so they should be more open with you about their plans.

Trojan

Also, salaries are negotiable, so negotiate. If they want a €10k delta, turn it into a €5k delta plus 8 extra vacation days and working from home 1 day a week or other (tangible) benefit.

The Corinthian

magoo84 wrote: »

In the end I declined the offer, because the company couldn't offer me any more security / visibility than what I had where I am now, or a guarantee of progression.

I can understand the whole factoring of health/pension, but security / visibility? What exactly do you mean? You want to see their bank statements every month? And a guarantee of progression? Can you guarantee you're up to it before starting work there? Just a little confused as to what you mean.

Trojan wrote: »

Also, salaries are negotiable, so negotiate.

Indeed. Never turn down an offer solely on the package. If you don't like the offer, counter with something higher. All they can do is refuse, which is what you're going to do anyway with the first offer.

ChRoMe

The Corinthian wrote: »

You want to see their bank statements every month?

Just a general tip to everyone, its always a good idea to pull the accounts of any prospective employers who are a LTD.

The_B_Man

magoo84 wrote: »

In the end I declined the offer, because the company couldn't offer me any more security / visibility than what I had where I am now, or a guarantee of progression. As well, the role had no benefits like health/pension which I have currently, so it would amount to a bigger pay cut than 10K, which I'm not willing to absorb. I may just have to stick it out here for a few more months, see where we're at maybe October/November, and if nothing has improved by then, I'll be on the lookout.

This is weird.
About the time you posted that yesterday, I was being offered a mobile dev job in the City Centre. Although going by the fact that you have much more experience, I don't think it was your "sloppy seconds" that I got.
Incidentally, the salary package they told the recruiter was less than I'm on now, but I also had an offer from a big company offering about 5k more, so they upped their offer a few thousand to try compete with the big company. Was 2k less, but I accepted it anyway because I wanted to do Android, and 80 euro a month isnt a big deal in the grand scheme of things.
My point is basically that I chose the "worse" package because it was doing something I find more interesting.

Trojan

^ appropriate username

Tar.Aldarion

How does it work for a junior? I've been working for 1.5 years only. If I was to change job now I would basically be new to a job again, whereas I am quite proficient at my current job. I consider this as I'd like to move in the future to Netherlands and work there (and I'd need to go up 10k gross there to get teh same net as here. I would think for inexperienced people changing language etc would be common, and I wonder how that would affect pay.

Being good my job has been built up over time with my pay reflecting that, with it going up significantly, however if I wanted to move for new experiences would I be back down to essentially a grad wage? Would you consider this worth it to learn a wider range of things early in a career? I take it after a time, however long it is good to change things up due to needing to broaden experience/horizons. Especially as I would only have professional experience in one language. Thereby ignoring the likes of C/++/java and all the rest, not improving upon them in a working environment.

seamus

Oh jesus no, you wouldn't take a drop in pay. Experience trumps knowledge. Being a good programmer is less about knowing your language inside-out and more about knowing the processes and methodologies, being familiar with how programming works in the real-world and experiencing the realities of software development outside of the textbook idealised SDLCs.

There's a school of thought about developers that a developer's net worth increases over the first first years in a company, but then goes into decline again. Their familiarity with both the company and the software they're working on has a tendency to give them a form of creative tunnel-vision. Whereas a new developer into a company will see something and may point out a really obvious way that a problem could be solved, but more senior devs will have missed it because they're just used to it or they never consider it a problem or whatever.
So in the past where new developers into a project were often seen as timesinks who would drag the whole thing late, new devs are now more often being seen as a fresh perspective who will help to improve the standard of the software being produced.

Tar.Aldarion

Very interesting thanks, was just worried that my salary would have gone up past the level a new hire would get with that experience in a new company etc.
I would say I've learned a lot more than programming working as you say. I have seen where new people coming in have had good ideas. In the mean time I must tackle my shocking lack of basic knowledge of some common languages to put my mind at ease anyway.