Are we selective about Nature?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Just something that has come up in the photos thread a few times recently. Are we selective in the attitudes we have about nature?
Someone saved a bee from a spider yet do spiders not need to eat too and play their part in the ecosystem? Crows were much maligned in another post. Suggestions that Cormorants were pests and should be culled appeared elsewhere.
Do we pick and choose what bits of nature we support?
I generally believe in leaving nature to it's own devices. My only qualms are reserved for alien species. OK I'll take a dandilion out of the lawn and trap a rat seen about the garden but beyond that I find everything has it's place and purpose.

OpenYourEyes

We definitely are selective about nature. I made the point elsewhere that it's easy to hate/blame Cormorants because they are black and slightly reptillian looking - I think if they were a bit more colourful or elegant that there would be less hysteria about the damage they supposedly cause.

Similarly for reintroduction projects it's easier to get the public on board for something 'charismatic' like Eagles or Cranes, than it is for other species.

It's even easier to get the public to support reintroduction projects than it is conservation projects!

OpenYourEyes

Actually another thing that annoys me is people who feed their garden birds, but hate and villify Sparrowhawks. I can kinda see where they're coming from, but Sparrowhawks are fantastic birds and they have to eat too! Had one in my garden this morning chasing a Collared Dove, and as much as I love my Collared Doves I would have loved to have seen the Sparrowhawk catch it. The same people would probably be delighted to see a Kestrel or Barn Owl, which are more associated with catching rodents than birds - they're all fantastic birds in my book!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Likewise, people I know who come out to the reedbeds beside my home each autumn to watch starling murmurations yet tell me they "hate" when starlings mob the birdtables or attempt to nest in their facia.

I know guys who talk about the enjoyment of the countryside and while they shoot pheasants (fair enough as they are an introduced game bird) they also shoot foxes because they take game. They trap and kill hooded grows for the same reason. That is double standards in my book. Or perhaps it's just a selfishness in just wanting the environment to meet their wants.

Graces7

and try getting support re freshwater mussels;)

but i see nothing wrong with disliking some species...i hate magpies, period. mostly the noise but since they took a kitten.

not keen on sinister black crows either

or mink

we are human with likes and dislikes. like mice but not in my bed thank you

OpenYourEyes

Graces7 wrote: »

and try getting support re freshwater mussels;)

but i see nothing wrong with disliking some species...i hate magpies, period. mostly the noise but since they took a kitten.

not keen on sinister black crows either

or mink

we are human with likes and dislikes. like mice but not in my bed thank you

Well nobody in Ireland should like Mink because they're invasive and cause a lot of damage - so there's a logic to disliking them! If I was to go over to America and see them in their natural habitat I'd be delighted to get a good look at one. Context is important. Similarly I can understand the need to control foxes and corvids in some situations, but I hate the people who then feel that every single fox and crow in the country needs to be destroyed - again, context should be and is important.

"Sinister Black" crows is the exact thing that we're talking about. They're not sinister, they do what every other bird and animal does and that's a) try to survive and b) try to breed and successfully fledge young. Nothing sinister about that. The fact that they're black definitely plays a part in people disliking them, or being able to justify that they dislike them.

The last few years there's been a Rookery at the end of our garden, and my mother has loved watching them build their nests and put so much effort into it, and then seeing the chicks sticking their heads out of the nest etc.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Graces7 wrote: »

and try getting support re freshwater mussels;)

but i see nothing wrong with disliking some species...i hate magpies, period. mostly the noise but since they took a kitten.

not keen on sinister black crows either

or mink

we are human with likes and dislikes. like mice but not in my bed thank you

The mussels are not really in the context I opened with. That is not a deliberate thing but rather a lack of consideration and ignorance by a farmer who wants to fertilise his land.
Magpies are magnificent birds. Not only are they striking in their plumage but they are a fascinating species. They are exceptionally clever and fill an important niche in our Irish ecosystem. Personally I lament the number of cats that roam our countryside.
Sinister black crows just doesn't make sense to me. Lord help us if we judged all animals by their colour! Folklore has a lot to answer for in this country. I researched myths and lore associated with birds and animals some years back and it seems the less savoury creatures were always those that had any impact on man's desire to reap the maximum from the land. Bad omens from crows, raptors taking children, man eating wolves, sly foxes, cormorants as a simile for the devil, ravens as potents of death, and even the Irish for cormorant being "sea raven" with the same ridiculous bias that implies.
No animal is sinister or bad in its own environment.
Mink are a distructive alien species and disliked by any right thinking nature lover in Ireland.

Capercaille

Everything native is good and has a place. Everything that is non-native and invasive is bad eg mink, sika deer, grey squirrel, rhododendron. Agree with Srameen about double standards

I know guys who talk about the enjoyment of the countryside and while they shoot pheasants (fair enough as they are an introduced game bird) they also shoot foxes because they take game. They trap and kill hooded grows for the same reason. That is double standards in my book. Or perhaps it's just a selfishness in just wanting the environment to meet their wants.

I get foxes lamped for valid reasons, but somebody who does it to "protect" non-native birds like pheasants is not a valid reason.

dodderangler

A lot of money and time goes into rearing pheasants and with the amount if foxes about there is quite a few taken by Charlie. But thing is shooting one fox will only bring in another fox into the area. And this the cycle continues. I'm actually seeing less foxes about now than this time last year and I was only out shooting today and we spotted one but in same field last year could spot easily 3

Birdnuts

The current laws on these things are reasonable in my view.

Graces7

Ibrahim Repulsive Vender wrote: »

The mussels are not really in the context I opened with. That is not a deliberate thing but rather a lack of consideration and ignorance by a farmer who wants to fertilise his land.
Magpies are magnificent birds. Not only are they striking in their plumage but they are a fascinating species. They are exceptionally clever and fill an important niche in our Irish ecosystem. Personally I lament the number of cats that roam our countryside.
Sinister black crows just doesn't make sense to me. Lord help us if we judged all animals by their colour! Folklore has a lot to answer for in this country. I researched myths and lore associated with birds and animals some years back and it seems the less savoury creatures were always those that had any impact on man's desire to reap the maximum from the land. Bad omens from crows, raptors taking children, man eating wolves, sly foxes, cormorants as a simile for the devil, ravens as potents of death, and even the Irish for cormorant being "sea raven" with the same ridiculous bias that implies.o
No animal is sinister or bad in its own environment.
Mink are a distructive alien species and disliked by any right thinking nature lover in Ireland.

as often i will continue to differ from you on this.

may not make sense to you but it is real and vivid to me.

i don't have to like or respect any creature no matter where it is just as i do not with people

my innate response to crows and magpies is a shudder.

as for the farmer; he is now wading though council and dept of ag and court paperwork. total lack of respect for nature and for my well being

signing off until afer easter; holy week..

magicbastarder

i've heard the belief expressed that people hate magpies because they are arguably the most intelligent animal species in ireland (non-marine species, i assume) and people find them unsettling as a result.

Eddie B

I think we all are selective when it comes to nature! Wether it be rats in our attic, fox in our chicken coop, or swarm of wasps in our apple tree! Its all o.k till nature affects our lives in one way or another!
Most so call problem animals or plants become so, due to an unbalance caused by humans!
Human waste is the main reason why there's so many rats about! Magpie and hooded crow number are high due to so much Roadkill, and more and more cormorants are coming in land to feed due to fish stocks being so low because of trawling practices out at sea!

Unfortunately there's no easy way to rectify the damage that we have made under the name of progress!
We all want are rubbish taken away each week, we all want to drive our cars and bild nice comfy houses to live in!

So how many of us have no problem letting a few rats live in our attic's?
How many farmers have no problem letting a fox or mink take some of their livestock
It's really all about ethics! Most people aren't fond of rats and have no problem killing one. There seen as vermin!

On the other hand, most people like fox's and wouldn't kill one because fox's are not directly affecting their every day lives, but to others they are!

Also how many of us keep cats knowing that cats kill so much wildlife on a regular basis! In fact, how many people have a bird table and have cats!

So where do we draw the line? I think there's no real answer to that one. we all have our own opinions, but thats all they are, opinions!

siledee

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've heard the belief expressed that people hate magpies because they are arguably the most intelligent animal species in ireland (non-marine species, i assume) and people find them unsettling as a result.

No. I hate them because I witnessed two screeching blackbirds trying to defend their nest only to see a magpie emerge from the area a few minutes later.

Nature I know but it wasn't pleasant listening to those birds.

I suppose I'm very selective eg pine martins are very desirable and popular but not when they are checking out osprey nests.

And do not get me started on cats !!!!

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

siledee wrote: »

No. I hate them because I witnessed two screeching blackbirds trying to defend their nest only to see a magpie emerge from the area a few minutes later.

Nature I know but it wasn't pleasant listening to those birds.

I suppose I'm very selective eg pine martins are very desirable and popular but not when they are checking out osprey nests.

And do not get me started on cats !!!!

I agree about cats as they are not part of our natural environment but "hating" Magpies for being predatory at nesting time is unreasonable. Magpies take some chicks, yes. Blackbirds have lots of chicks, yes. If all blackbird chicks survived we would be overrun with blackbirds and the whole balance of nature upset. Indeed these same chicks would probably starve tob death. Everything has a reason and a place. One of the problems in getting our ecosystem back to some decent balance is this selective regard that promotes only the cute and cuddly aspects .

magicbastarder

if magpies were birds of prey, they would get much better PR.

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

if magpies were birds of prey, they would get much better PR.

Meh - Magpies are different from BOPS in many respects. BOP's in this country rarely if ever raid the nests of other birds and certainly have never exisited in the number/densisity that magpies now do. Magpies are also way more adaptable, hence their huge numbers in urban environments. Magpies are also alot more of a nuisance for livestock,poultry,feedlots etc. than any BOP and are generally alot bolder around man. BOP's are generally top of the foodchain while Magpies aren't - numbers in this country are particulary high in the absence/scarcity of the their main predators such as Goshawks,certain Eagles, Eagle owls etc. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that magpies occupy a different niche in Irelands ecosystems compared to BOP's

OpenYourEyes

While I 1) Think Magpies are beautiful and fascinating birds, and 2) Am ok with Magpie control where necessary, I think it's impossible to say "if Magpies were birds of prey, they would get much better PR". If they were birds of prey they'd be a very different bird - they'd exist in only a fraction of the density that they currently do for a start. Their body plan would be at least slightly different (they wouldn't have that lovely, almost parrot-like tail), and as Birdnuts said they wouldn't be around humans nearly as much so that would have a big impact on how much people thought or cared about them. Also, I think one of the things that gives some people their appreciation of BOPs is that they hunt their food, and have very specific skills that make them very impressive - Kestrels can hover, Owls are adapted to hunt at night, Sparrowhawks use the element of surprise, Peregrines have a mix of speed and power, etc. etc. Magpies have no comparable trait.

So essentially what I'm saying is there's more to it than just being lumped into a specific group of birds and getting the associated PR. Ravens are considered honourary raptors, and I'd say there's quite a spectrum of public opinion on them! (though I'm a big fan!)

OpenYourEyes

siledee wrote: »

No. I hate them because I witnessed two screeching blackbirds trying to defend their nest only to see a magpie emerge from the area a few minutes later.

Nature I know but it wasn't pleasant listening to those birds.

I suppose I'm very selective eg pine martins are very desirable and popular but not when they are checking out osprey nests.

And do not get me started on cats !!!!

Cats aren't wildlife - they're artificially supported by humans, which then enables them to cause havoc with wild birds - completely with you on that one.

Magpie v Blackbird - while I'd feel some degree of sympathy for the blackbirds, they are a common bird and their population won't be affected by that nest being raided. It very much is nature and I would just leave it alone. I've seen Rooks eating Mallard eggs, and I watched in fascination but I didnt interfere and I didn't respect the Rook any less for it.

Pine Martens v Ospreys...are you just using that as a general example because I doubt there's very much conflict between those two species?! Pine Martens are great creatures and its encouraging to see their populations increase. That being said I know of two or three conservation projects that have derogations to control Pine Martens to protect rare and sensitive species - while I don't like the idea of reducing Pine Marten numbers, I can see that it is absolutely necessary in those cases. Again, the fact that some eggs and chicks would have been taken by Pine Martens doesn't make me hate Pine Martens.

I think the context i hugely important and something that some people don't account for.
I don't think it's being selective about nature when there's a justifiable reason for it - e.g. disliking Mink is ok because they aren't native and cause a disproportionate amount of damage, disliking Rats in your attic is ok because of the damage/disease risk.
But I think it is being selective, and its a bad attitude in general, to bear some sort of grudge against a species - e.g. hating all Magpies and all Foxes, not just those at a site where they cause damage to breeding ground-nesting birds.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

There was a very interesting survey done by the RSPB some years back on the impact of Magpies on songbird populations. I linked to it on boards a few times but can't find it now. Basically, the conclusions were that they do not have an impact on the success or otherwise of songbirds in an area.
I think the perception against magpies is largely because people see and hear the predation close up. They rarely hear the commotion when other predators take prey so it doesn't bother them.

siledee

Ibrahim Repulsive Vender wrote: »

There was a very interesting survey done by the RSPB some years back on the impact of Magpies on songbird populations. I linked to it on boards a few times but can't find it now. Basically, the conclusions were that they do not have an impact on the success or otherwise of songbirds in an area.
I think the perception against magpies is largely because people see and hear the predation close up. They rarely hear the commotion when other predators take prey so it doesn't bother them.

Your last paragraph sums me up to a tee.
I'm only annoyed when I actually witness something.
I absolutely know that everything has it's place in the grand scheme of things and specific instances don't affect that grand scheme.

But magpies I'm like, f**k off. Go find some road kill. God knows there's enough of it about.

And I would have shooo'd off that rook knowing full well that it would have been back again when I wasn't there.

I love ospreys. I watch several cams, Loch Garten, Loch of Lowes, Dyfi, Kielder, Rutland etc.

Love it when you can watch something from arrival back from migration through to chicks taking off on their own migration.
And because of the tracking you can see they, thankfully, avoid Malta.

You just get so involved because of what a struggle it is to get here..just like swallows,cuckoos, etc.

The cams go online just before the birds are due back.
And lo and behold just before EJ was expected there was a pine martin checking out her nest.

Now I don't hate them but I was going shoo off, get lost, go find something else to eat...because EJ lost her eggs to a pine martin a couple of seasons ago.

So that's me. It's who I am. I make no apologies for me.

And the purists on here will probably come down on me like a ton of bricks...but hey ho.

Obliq

It's difficult to even personally find a balance, tbh. I live in the country and keep hens/cats. By doing that, I now have some bird and animal "vermin", who I have sympathy for in the natural scheme of things, but I also have some selfish choices to make. I also have the deaths of beautiful song-birds and voles, etc. on my hands by keeping cats.

Cats: Number one enemy on my land of birds and small furries, but they all were found by my children as starving and sick kittens wandering the roads. I have sworn off letting any more in (now have 3, down from an all-time high of 5), and do have a grudging respect for the sheer number of rats that one of them catches. Have nothing much against rats however, but I have no idea how many there'd be around the chicken feed without my ratter.

Hens: Number one enemy of foxes and magpies. Years ago, I went away for a few weeks and while the hens were unattended during the day, a wily magpie found that picking holes in all the eggs that were lying about for a day was an excellent source of food. Unfortunately, he/she told it's partner and then brought up their kids to do the same. I took the decision to make a Larsen trap and catch them.

I choose to have free-range hens, but every spring I lose one or two to foxes. I then keep the hens penned, but when I let them out again, if I still have a problem then I will call the gun-club to come and hunt my woodland for the problem fox. My theory is that they rarely catch it (too many exit routes), but will certainly dissuade it from coming back for a while. Sometimes, they catch it and I feel pretty sh1tty about it.

It's a moral question for me certainly, but I do like keeping hens for the lovely eggs and for the pot, and it makes me feel better that at least I know what lovely naturalised lives they have. Unfortunately, it's at a cost to nature

thimble

I know a vegetarian who's a keen gardener, and he kills slugs and leatherjackets without a second thought. Often slag him about it.