A sorry tale about a Letting Deposit

tibolt

In brief. I’m a student. Two other girls and myself went looking for accommodation in late Sept last. (We left it late as we had summer jobs, and couldn’t get time to view places.) Found a place in Smithfield. Letting agent wanted a month’s deposit - €1200. We were anxious to get a place, few places available. I had money in my account so I paid the deposit. It was nearly all the money I had saved up, and I had worked hard for it. Big mistake.

I assumed that this was the usual security deposit you get back at the end of the tenancy. But I got an email from the letting agent saying that it was a non-refundable booking deposit. We were due to meet her a few days later to sign a lease so we let it run. The letting agent was to give us a date when we could move in.

Then one of the girls got a late offer of on campus accommodation, and pulled out. We tried getting a replacement but that didn’t work, so I rang the letting agent and cancelled. She was very nasty and said she wouldn’t refund the deposit (of €1200).

Per her website, the apartment was let a few days later! I lodged a complaint to the Tenancy Board (PRTB) in Oct. They told me in Dec. that there would be a hearing. Phoned them in Feb but nothing happened. Now, in April, they have written to me stating “Although a deposit was paid, no tenancy had come into being …. and therefore the dispute was not one over which the PRTB has jurisdiction.” The letter continues “Unless you establish that this opinion of the Board is not well founded, it will not deal with the matter.”

I thought that paying a deposit would be evidence of a verbal agreement to let.

Please help me. What can I do?

I checked other threads here. The final post in this thread http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=67868302 says:
“The booking deposit establishes bona fides. The law on this issue was decided in the case of Howlin v Power 1978. In the case of a sale or lease which is subject to contract or lease not proceeding, the deposit must be given back. Opinion counts for nothing. That is the law on the point.”

The person who posted this was Jo King. Was he Joking? Although his posts look genuine, his status is listed as Banned.

What would you suggest I do? I really, really, need the money back.

fash

Go to small claims court.
You may not win if it was a booking deposit...

tibolt

Thanks Fash,

I've never been to the Small Claims Court but I'll check it out.

Have I any other options?

Has anyone heard of that Howlin v Power court case?

MagicMarker

How could you not get a replacement? An add on daft and you would have found someone within the day.

The_Morrigan

Just a gentle reminder that legal advice cannot be sought or given.

Morri

Zamboni

You've been had.
Your "friends" owe you €400 each.
There is no such thing as a €1,200 non refundable booking deposit to an EA for a tenancy.
Small claims court or a cheap lesson in life. Your choice.

tibolt

Thanks for the posts.

When I paid the €1200 I believed it was a (refundable) security deposit. When I paid deposits before, they were returned at the end of the year. Surely people don't have to pay a booking deposit AND a security deposit.

Ah, Zamboni I learned a lesson alright, but for me at least, it's not a cheap lesson. Not when I'm struggling to get by.

The_Morrigan

You could also contact these guys and make a complaint against the EA

http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/index-en

They should have very clearly stated before taking your money that the deposit was non-refundable - did they do that?

tibolt

Thanks,

When I viewed the apartment the agent said we'd have to pay a deposit of €1200 and then meet to sign the paperwork (on the Thursday of the following week). She never mentioned the words non-refundable. That only appeared on the email receipt she sent me.

She couldn't tell us the exact date we could move in - said she'd get back to us on that. The agent operates on her own, i.e she not with a firm.

Should I maybe get the landlord's opinion? The apartments are probably owned by a company though. Apart from knocking on doors, is there a way to find out who owns an apartment block?

The_Morrigan

tibolt wrote: »

Thanks,

When I viewed the apartment the agent said we'd have to pay a deposit of €1200 and then meet to sign the paperwork (on the Thursday of the following week). She never mentioned the words non-refundable. That only appeared on the email receipt she sent me.

She couldn't tell us the exact date we could move in - said she'd get back to us on that. The agent operates on her own, i.e she not with a firm.

Should I maybe get the landlord's opinion? The apartments are probably owned by a company though. Apart from knocking on doors, is there a way to find out who owns an apartment block?

If she is operating as an agent then she must have a licence and registered - you can search for her here: http://www.npsra.ie/website/npsra/npsraweb.nsf/page/publicregister-reg-of-propserv-prov-en

Contact these guys and make a complaint, will help you in your small claims case if you've made official complaints with the relevant bodies.

jimmyendless

1200e non-refundable booking fee sounds ridiculous. Rented about 10 different places and never heard the like of it.

I took a certain smartphone manufacturer to small claims courts few years back and it was settled outside of court. Great facility.

tibolt

I just checked. She is registered with the NPSRA.

I've never had any dealings with the small claims court, or thankfully any court. To be honest, I'm a bit on the shy side, so having to appear in court would intimidating for me. But I'll check it out.

Incidentally, I've rented two apartments previously and only paid a (refundable) security deposit. If you pay a booking deposit do you also have to pay a security deposit?

The_Morrigan

tibolt wrote: »

I just checked. She is registered with the NPSRA.

I've never had any dealings with the small claims court, or thankfully any court. To be honest, I'm a bit on the shy side, so having to appear in court would intimidating for me. But I'll check it out.

Incidentally, I've rented two apartments previously and only paid a (refundable) security deposit. If you pay a booking deposit do you also have to pay a security deposit?

Depends on the contract tbh - I've paid a booking deposit (couple of hundred punts) to get a place off the market and then paid the balance as the security deposit once leases etc were ready to be signed.

Michael D Not Higgins

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Depends on the contract tbh - I've paid a booking deposit (couple of hundred punts) to get a place off the market and then paid the balance as the security deposit once leases etc were ready to be signed.

I did this with my current apartment. It's supposed to be a minimal amount as a deposit, as in enough to show you're serious but small enough to not be missed if the deal falls through.

IMO, the full month's 1200 as the deposit was a mistake on both OP's and the agent's part.

ted1

tibolt wrote: »

I just checked. She is registered with the NPSRA.

I've never had any dealings with the small claims court, or thankfully any court. To be honest, I'm a bit on the shy side, so having to appear in court would intimidating for me. But I'll check it out.

Incidentally, I've rented two apartments previously and only paid a (refundable) security deposit. If you pay a booking deposit do you also have to pay a security deposit?

you normally don't have to appear in the court, a lot of it is settled by letters.

you fill in the form giving your account, they then ask the other person for the version of the story and the judge replies.

only seldom will a court visit be needed

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/small_claims_court.html

Claw Hammer

Complain to the Property Registration Authority. What happened to the o/p is illegal and tantamount to theft. The deposit should be given back as no lease was signed.

tibolt

Thanks for the posts and advice - much appreciated.

Claw Hammer - was what happened actually illegal?

Claw Hammer

tibolt wrote: »

Thanks for the posts and advice - much appreciated.

Claw Hammer - was what happened actually illegal?

Yes. Regulated exstate agents can't take deposits other than subject to contract.

The_Morrigan

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Yes. Regulated exstate agents can't take deposits other than subject to contract.

Typically this is in relation to buying a property and all correspondence is ended with 'subject to contract' to avoid being caught out during the negotiations.
I've never seen it done in relation to renting a property.

Claw Hammer

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Typically this is in relation to buying a property and all correspondence is ended with 'subject to contract' to avoid being caught out during the negotiations.
I've never seen it done in relation to renting a property.

The same principle applies and the Howlin V Power case in fact concerned a rental property.

The_Morrigan

Claw Hammer wrote: »

The same principle applies and the Howlin V Power case in fact concerned a rental property.

I can see where the principle applies, but Howlin V Power was a commercial transaction, not a residential letting and there are differing laws at play. We also can't give legal advice here, so quoting of cases is skirting the line a bit. /Mod



OP, I really think you need to make a complaint about this agent, include the PRTB details when you talk to them.
Start the ball rolling on the smalls claims court and send her a registered letter informing her of your actions.

Michael D Not Higgins

RTA 2004 doesn't mention holding/booking deposits, but the citizens information website mentions them

"Some landlords or agents may ask you for a holding deposit when you decide to take the accommodation. This is a sum of money you pay to hold the property for you before you sign the lease and enter into a contract with the landlord. You should always get a written receipt for a holding deposit. Holding deposits are often not refundable if you don’t take up the accommodation."

I'd still see a month's deposit as the security deposit rather than a holding deposit.

tibolt

Thanks for your reply.

I assume the letting agent would or should have passed the deposit over to the landlord.

Ray Palmer

tibolt wrote: »

Thanks for your reply.

I assume the letting agent would or should have passed the deposit over to the landlord.

Wouldn't have to. The point seems to be they can do this legally as they can claim it was a holding deposit.

I guess they only claim you can make is that you believed it was a booking deposit. The amount doesn't change the purpose so you can't use that as an argument as appears to have been suggested.

Did they give you a receipt? Tell you it was a book or holding deposit?

tibolt

Thanks Ray,

When I viewed the apartment the agent said we'd have to pay a deposit of €1200, (which I assumed was the normal, refundable, security deposit). We were to meet some days later to sign the paperwork. After I paid the deposit, she later sent me an email stating that it was a non-refundable booking deposit.

Michael D Not Higgins

tibolt wrote: »

Thanks Ray,

When I viewed the apartment the agent said we'd have to pay a deposit of €1200, (which I assumed was the normal, refundable, security deposit). We were to meet some days later to sign the paperwork. After I paid the deposit, she later sent me an email stating that it was a non-refundable booking deposit.

Your only come back now is that when you paid the deposit it wasn't explained that it was non refundable.

ted1

tibolt wrote: »

Thanks Ray,

When I viewed the apartment the agent said we'd have to pay a deposit of €1200, (which I assumed was the normal, refundable, security deposit). We were to meet some days later to sign the paperwork. After I paid the deposit, she later sent me an email stating that it was a non-refundable booking deposit.

She can't imply terms and conditions after.

chopper6

Take them to court and make sure you tell everybody the sort of people they are.

Feckin estate agents are a law unto themselves.

Claw Hammer

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

RTA 2004 doesn't mention holding/booking deposits, but the citizens information website mentions them

"Some landlords or agents may ask you for a holding deposit when you decide to take the accommodation. This is a sum of money you pay to hold the property for you before you sign the lease and enter into a contract with the landlord. You should always get a written receipt for a holding deposit. Holding deposits are often not refundable if you don’t take up the accommodation."

I'd still see a month's deposit as the security deposit rather than a holding deposit.

The RTA has no application when no lease was entered into. The citizens information website is far too vague.

fash

You've got a decent shot at claiming that as the estate agent only said (orally) that it was a "deposit", when you have the money, you only agreed to a security deposit when you gave the money- on the basis that it was a month's rent. A reasonable interpretation of that amount is that it was a security deposit- not a booking deposit.

There was no agreement as to a booking deposit- so you want your money back. The agent merely informed you that the agent thought it was a booking deposit when you went to the agency the following time.

I'd go to the small claims court on that basis.

tibolt

I'll send the agent a registered letter, then it's the small claims court.
Many thanks for taking the time to reply.