New driving and using mobile ph regulations

Volthar

Hi,
Can anyone help me to decipher this:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/drivers-caught-on-mobiles-to-face-1-000-fine-1.1759612

Especially part about accessing information. It looks to me that using your smartphone as gps is accessing info and can cost me €1000.

I understand txting is distracting but is using handsfree to make a phoncall now also banned? Shall we all dump handsfree kits?

Thanks for helping.

Steve

Do you have a link to the actual text of the legislation?

Would be interested to see that if a car that has bluetooth integrated phone / smart device tech essentially becomes a 'phone that you drive' falls under this in which case it could now be illegal to look at your speedometer...

Zambia

Seems pretty clear to me if you touch the phone while driving.

In fact that's what the legislation should simply state.

I thought the rise to 400 dollars and 4 points was hefty here but Ireland is going all out.

Pat Mustard

This seems to be a simple increase in penalty, rather than any change in the substantive law, but as the Irish statute book website has not yet been updated to show how the existing legislation has been affected, I have not managed to locate the new legislation to confirm anything.

The pre-existing legislation refers to holding a mobile phone, meaning to support or cradle it in one's hand or other part of the body, as opposed to simply touching it.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2006/en/act/pub/0023/sec0003.html

“ hold ”, in relation to a mobile phone, means holding the phone by hand or supporting or cradling it with another part of the body

There doesn't appear to be a difficulty in just touching a mobile phone. For example, touching the screen of a phone held in a phone cradle, to use GPS, etc.

I don't see this apparent need to increase the penalty, but it seems to be seen as popular with yet another government to continue to blithely increase the severity of road traffic offences. It is irritating that successive governments resort to the same tactic time after time, without any overall strategy to achieve a reduction in road deaths, or whatever it is that they are trying to achieve.

I can't see the difficulty in setting an appropriate penalty and basically sticking to that.

I suppose that governments think that continuous increases in penalties is a policy that somehow appeases voters with short memories.

This is annoying headless-chicken type government action. I'd vote for somebody else in the next general election if there was a choice that didn't involve communists, Fianna Fáil or Shinners.

Mikros

The Mustard wrote: »

This seems to be a simple increase in penalty, rather than any change in the substantive law, but as the Irish statute book website has not yet been updated to show how the existing legislation has been affected, I have not managed to locate the new legislation to confirm anything.

There doesn't appear to be a difficulty in just touching a mobile phone. For example, touching the screen of a phone held in a phone cradle, to use GPS, etc.

I can't find the new legislation either, so this is all speculation, but my understanding is it will be a new addition to the previous offence of holding a mobile phone. It was proposed in the heads of a bill previously to close off a loophole of people texting or accessing Facebook etc. on their phone while driving when the phone is in a cradle. The wording was:

A person shall not use or handle the keypad of a hands-free mobile phone for the purposes of texting or accessing information while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place.

So this would likely include accessing GPS. In my opinion I agree with this - if your driving along your attention should be on the road - not trying to work a phone or SatNav regardless of where it is held.

Snake

Well if you're trying to drive and focus on having a conversation your focus is split between two actions.. You cannot 100% focus on safe driving while 100% listening to what the person on the other end of the phone is saying... It's a bit hefty in fairness but not like those ****s are gonna care, they don't have to drive they can pay people to do that. And even if they were caught, who'd say anything. Sounds like they're trying to distract people from the T.D who was trying to chat up a teenager, well in my opinion anyway

Flippyfloppy

When I had a TomTom it always instructed upon start up to set the gps up before starting the journey. I have always assumed messing around with the gps on my smartphone and being caught by the Garda would result in some kind of fine!

same ol sh1te

It's not just GPS, I play my music through my phone, it connects by Bluetooth and is easily more accessible in the cradle than the car stereo, besides that, Google Play Music is a lovely clean interface.

Metroid diorteM

Say you're sitting in a traffic jam and you check a text message - is that illegal?

Obviously while driving/moving using a phone is retarded but if you're stuck and common sense says you won't be moving more than an inch every 5 minutes and no one is going anywhere shouldn't that be overlooked?

Mikros

same ol sh1te wrote: »

It's not just GPS, I play my music through my phone, it connects by Bluetooth and is easily more accessible in the cradle than the car stereo, besides that, Google Play Music is a lovely clean interface.

One difference is that you have to look at the screen of a phone to interact with it because of the way a touch screen works - whereas a stereo in most cars you have tactile buttons which you don't need to pay the same level of attention to because you can feel what you are pressing.

But you have highlighted an issue with the proposed legislation - as car manufacturers install more and more "smart" devices in cars - trip computers, GPS, touch screen stereos etc. - how do you ensure you are not distracting the driver and how do you frame legislation around it.

While most of us will adopt a common sense approach and not use a device in a situation where it would be a risk, there will always be people tapping away on their phones irrespective of the traffic around them.

The Royal Scam

This issue is much bigger than people think. I drive in Europe and the UK and honestly it seems like a very Irish issue. If you stand at the side of the road in Ireland I estimate approx 1 in 8-10 cars are holding their phone. Anywhere else in my opinion it is very rare.
What honestly is starting to scare me is the amount of times I travel on the motorways in Ireland and come across somebody in the inside lane taking it easy, and only when I overtake and notice they are taking it easy as they are updating Facebook or texting on their smart phone.

happywithlife

Metroid diorteM wrote: »

Say you're sitting in a traffic jam and you check a text message - is that illegal?

Obviously while driving/moving using a phone is retarded but if you're stuck and common sense says you won't be moving more than an inch every 5 minutes and no one is going anywhere shouldn't that be overlooked?

That scenario was always open to prosecution as far as I know
You are driving the car and need to focused on the road all the time. Traffic stopped or not.

same ol sh1te

Mikros wrote: »

One difference is that you have to look at the screen of a phone to interact with it because of the way a touch screen works - whereas a stereo in most cars you have tactile buttons which you don't need to pay the same level of attention to because you can feel what you are pressing.

But you have highlighted an issue with the proposed legislation - as car manufacturers install more and more "smart" devices in cars - trip computers, GPS, touch screen stereos etc. - how do you ensure you are not distracting the driver and how do you frame legislation around it.

While most of us will adopt a common sense approach and not use a device in a situation where it would be a risk, there will always be people tapping away on their phones irrespective of the traffic around them.

Yes, it's ridiculous that they went ahead and changed the law knowing this. Sounds rushed to me, not fully thought out. Typical

I would go on to say crossing a road on foot with a phone would be just as serious, should be an on the spot penalty

Pat Mustard

Mikros wrote: »

I can't find the new legislation either, so this is all speculation, but my understanding is it will be a new addition to the previous offence of holding a mobile phone. It was proposed in the heads of a bill previously to close off a loophole of people texting or accessing Facebook etc. on their phone while driving when the phone is in a cradle. The wording was:

A person shall not use or handle the keypad of a hands-free mobile phone for the purposes of texting or accessing information while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place.

So this would likely include accessing GPS. In my opinion I agree with this - if your driving along your attention should be on the road - not trying to work a phone or SatNav regardless of where it is held.

Just looked at breakingnews.ie where it says that the new law will prohibit using a phone while it's in a cradle (understandable) but will also prohibit using a mobile phone on handsfree (OTT).

I'll be interested to see the wording of the legislation here.

I receive calls on handsfree and it is no more distraction to me than talking to someone in the car. Eyes on the road and hands on the wheel; if anything suffers, it's the conversation.

I hope that this isn't yet more Nanny State horsesh1t by the government.

Mikros

The Mustard wrote: »

Just looked at breakingnews.ie where it says that the new law will prohibit using a phone while it's in a cradle (understandable) but will also prohibit using a mobile phone on handsfree (OTT).

I'll be interested to see the wording of the legislation here.

I receive calls on handsfree and it is no more distraction to me than talking to someone in the car. Eyes on the road and hands on the wheel; if anything suffers, it's the conversation.

I hope that this isn't yet more Nanny State horsesh1t by the government.

I don't think it will be an outright ban including handsfree - not the impression I got from it. AFAIK the only country with such a ban is Japan.

But irrespective what you think, all the research would say there is an impairment to your concentration when having a conversation on a hands free kit. It's the extra cognitive load required to hold the conversation regardless of where your hands are. But there is always a trade off between what is practical or desirable to legislate for versus what is an acceptable risk.

To take it to an extreme we could limit cars to 10 mph and get rid of serious collisions tomorrow, but it is neither practical nor desirable to do so. Similarly with hands free mobiles - that is the case today anyway but it is always subject to review.

Pat Mustard

Mikros wrote: »

But irrespective what you think, all the research would say there is an impairment to your concentration when having a conversation on a hands free kit. It's the extra cognitive load required to hold the conversation regardless of where your hands are. But there is always a trade off between what is practical or desirable to legislate for versus what is an acceptable risk.

Although I haven't found any empirical evidence that that there is an extra cognitive load required to hold a conversation, this sounds plausible and may make sense.

What does not make sense to me is what appears to be a baseless assertion (that I have read) that talking to a disembodied voice on a bluetooth speaker is more of a distraction than having a conversation with a real passenger. The assertion appears to be grounded upon yet another assertion that a passenger can stop a conversation if/when a situation arises which demands the driver's attention.

Should we outlaw conversations in cars now, too?

I agree that there is a trade off between what is desirable versus acceptable risk.

Mikros

The Mustard wrote: »

Although I haven't found any empirical evidence that that there is an extra cognitive load required to hold a conversation, this sounds plausible and may make sense.

What does not make sense to me is what appears to be a baseless assertion (that I have read) that talking to a disembodied voice on a bluetooth speaker is more of a distraction than having a conversation with a real passenger. The assertion appears to be grounded upon yet another assertion that a passenger can stop a conversation if/when a situation arises which demands the driver's attention.

Should we outlaw conversations in cars now, too?

I agree that there is a trade off between what is desirable versus acceptable risk.

I think the research is pretty mixed when comparing the difference between holding a conversation with a passenger vs. a conversation on a phone with studies both for and against. As you said the usual assertion was that a passenger in the car can respond to changing conditions as opposed to a person on the other end of a phone, but that might not actually be the case. You would hope that a responsible driver would be able to know when a conversation either in person or on the phone is not appropriate based on the driving conditions at hand. No way to legislate for common sense though.

Will have to wait and see what the Government are actually proposing with this one before I can comment on whether they struck the balance right.

No Pants

Mikros wrote: »

It's the extra cognitive load required to hold the conversation regardless of where your hands are.

Unless you're a guard. They must have different brains.

Benbulnen64

Volthar wrote: »

Hi,
Can anyone help me to decipher this:
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/drivers-caught-on-mobiles-to-face-1-000-fine-1.1759612

Especially part about accessing information. It looks to me that using your smartphone as gps is accessing info and can cost me €1000.

I understand txting is distracting but is using handsfree to make a phoncall now also banned? Shall we all dump handsfree kits?

Thanks for helping.

Unless there's a change to the definition of holding in the Statute, the conduct you've referred to shouldn't attract the grand penalty...

rdhma

The statutory instrument is now available
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/pdf/2014/en.si.2014.0178.pdf

3. In these Regulations—
“read a text message” includes access or open a text message (other than by
voice-activation) so that it can be read;
“send a text message” includes compose and type a text message, but does not
include anything done without touching the mobile phone;
“SMS” and “MMS” have the meanings assigned to them by Regulation 2(1) of
the European Communities (Electronic Communications Networks and
Services) (Framework) Regulations 2011 (S.I. No. 333 of 2011);
“text message” includes an SMS, an MMS message and an email.
4. A person shall not while driving a mechanically propelled vehicle in a
public place—
(a) send a text message, or
(b) read a text message,
from a mobile phone

Pat Mustard

Fair dues for finding that.

The legislation directory does not yet show the update.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/isbc/2006_23.html

Oryx

I understand the need for this legislation, but all this talk of phone conversations being distracting makes me wonder when the government are going to ban the transport of children in cars. (Particularly squabbling preteen siblings). Now theres a distraction worse than any mobile phone conversation.

John Mason

so we can still use GPS and handfree?

i use my GPS for work a lot

Pat Mustard

Oryx wrote: »

I understand the need for this legislation, but all this talk of phone conversations being distracting makes me wonder when the government are going to ban the transport of children in cars. (Particularly squabbling preteen siblings). Now theres a distraction worse than any mobile phone conversation.

Sounds logical.
www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/public-needs-a-break-from-logical-leo-175841.html

Everybody knows I don’t have any people skills.

John Mason wrote: »

so we can still use GPS and handfree?

i use my GPS for work a lot

The existing legislation prohibits holding a mobile phone while driving, meaning holding the phone by hand or supporting or cradling it with another part of the body.

From 1st May, while driving, it will be an offence to send or read text messages (including SMS, MMS, email).

Use of a phone cradle should allow a motorist to be able to use a phone without holding it (bearing in mind the issue of text messages, as above).

However, it is possible that someone who is not concentrating on driving could be guilty of other offences such as careless or dangerous driving.