Good discipline.What is it?

acequion

I was very interested in a recently closed thread about a discipline issue. The thread was closed before I had a chance to get my two cents in, and, feeling that discipline is such a crucial issue, I decided to start a new thread. In the closed thread the OP described an incident with a student who became aggressive. Some of the replies were interesting in what they revealed about current attitudes to discipline, described by the OP as the “rot setting in”. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but overall, I’d be in full agreement with the OP about that issue.

Attitudes to discipline have swung to the other extreme from the dark days of corporal punishment, and as with everything, extremes are bad. Unruly, unacceptable, even threatening behaviour is glibly explained away nowadays as the “poor child has issues” and in a classroom situation, the tendency is to always blame the teacher. This is wrong. Teachers are human and with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally. If younger teachers and nqt’s can’t see that simple logic, then the rot is setting in and those eager beaver, idealistic teachers will get a rude awakening, sooner rather than later.

So, what is good discipline? To me it’s common sense and boundaries. Everyone and every relationship needs both. I have always been impressed by teachers whose presence immediately stills a hyper class.But I’ve never been able to do that and I’m not convinced it’s natural. My junior classes tend to be noisy affairs, but overall, cheerful environments with good learning. My senior classes on the contrary, are generally quiet and focused, because I insist on it. This varies, obviously, depending on the activity, but more self discipline is required of older kids and this is good preparation for adult life. My discipline is completely based on bonding with my students and establishing a strong rapport. If a teacher can get kids on side, then in many, even most, cases, anything is possible. However, even in my noisy, more chaotic classes, there are always boundaries and lines that must not be crossed.

I think aggression and disrespect should never be tolerated. Everyone, teacher and pupils, alike, have the right to a secure environment. So, to put it bluntly and politically incorrectly, we should be able to turf out a kid who won’t tow the line. Not permanently. But until such time as the issue has been dealt with and an apology made. Every teacher should insist on that.

Times might have changed, but human nature hasn’t and teachers need better support in this crucial issue.

seavill

To me in general discipline is what a principal makes it.

If a kid knows that disruption is not accepted and will result in removal from class and there will be a sanction then it is easier to keep good discipline in a class.
If a kid knows that "sure teacher roars for a minute but nothing else will happen" then it is difficult for any teacher to keep absolute discipline in their class.

Like you said discipline can mean different things to different people, you might think noisy work is acceptable, I know a few in my school that think nothing is acceptable but silence.

My view is that discipline is where they know how to respect you and they know where the line is, that is not to be crossed. Yes there will always be the odd incident but they can be dealt with.
Some classes have to be kept in line more than others so I don't think that one teacher will have one way of dealing with discipline but I think it can be summed up with the line above, even with the worst of students (and I have dealt with those)

acequion

seavill wrote: »

To me in general discipline is what a principal makes it.

If a kid knows that disruption is not accepted and will result in removal from class and there will be a sanction then it is easier to keep good discipline in a class.
If a kid knows that "sure teacher roars for a minute but nothing else will happen" then it is difficult for any teacher to keep absolute discipline in their class.

Like you said discipline can mean different things to different people, you might think noisy work is acceptable, I know a few in my school that think nothing is acceptable but silence.

My view is that discipline is where they know how to respect you and they know where the line is, that is not to be crossed. Yes there will always be the odd incident but they can be dealt with.
Some classes have to be kept in line more than others so I don't think that one teacher will have one way of dealing with discipline but I think it can be summed up with the line above, even with the worst of students (and I have dealt with those)

I agree. And you're right about the discipline structures in the school and that it must come from the top. But, ultimately,the teacher is alone in the classroom and often has to make an immediate call.

But, like so much else in teaching,good discipline is indefinable and unquantifiable. Good classroom management comes with experience and there's no "How to" manual. But I feel for younger collegues who are often overwhelmed and who get little support. A class might behave well for an older, established teacher,but will feed a new teacher or a sub to the lions and often with impunity. Many such teachers are afraid to report incidents for fear they'll be branded with the idiotic "can't control the class" catch phrase.

And then, when the inspector calls the class might behave like little angels, and it's one big false act.

Less time, energy and money should be spent on superficial stuff like inspections and the various,inane policies,and a lot more on discipline support.

Bananatop

I was speaking to a primary school principal a few years back who had been in the game a long time. I asked him did he think that student behaviour was worse now that it was say twenty/thirty years ago. He told me that the same percentage of students cause trouble nowadays as they did twenty/thirty years ago, but the type of trouble they cause is far worse than the type caused twenty/thirty years ago.

I often speak to older teachers about their experiences too, and a few have told me that the ability of students to concentrate for any length of time has gone down dramatically in that last fifteen to twenty years. We're spoon-feeding them now compared to the eighties/nineties.

I think low attention levels and lack of personal discipline in some students are huge factors which every teacher has to deal with. I do believe though that most students are on the whole grand, and just get on with their work. I also look at the classroom like it's a microcosm of society, most people are decent and hard-working, but you'll always have a percentage of people who just can't be arsed to do anything for themselves.

Nicole.

acequion wrote: »

I was very interested in a recently closed thread about a discipline issue. The thread was closed before I had a chance to get my two cents in, and, feeling that discipline is such a crucial issue, I decided to start a new thread. In the closed thread the OP described an incident with a student who became aggressive. Some of the replies were interesting in what they revealed about current attitudes to discipline, described by the OP as the “rot setting in”. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but overall, I’d be in full agreement with the OP about that issue.

Attitudes to discipline have swung to the other extreme from the dark days of corporal punishment, and as with everything, extremes are bad. Unruly, unacceptable, even threatening behaviour is glibly explained away nowadays as the “poor child has issues” and in a classroom situation, the tendency is to always blame the teacher. This is wrong. Teachers are human and with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally. If younger teachers and nqt’s can’t see that simple logic, then the rot is setting in and those eager beaver, idealistic teachers will get a rude awakening, sooner rather than later.

So, what is good discipline? To me it’s common sense and boundaries. Everyone and every relationship needs both. I have always been impressed by teachers whose presence immediately stills a hyper class.But I’ve never been able to do that and I’m not convinced it’s natural. My junior classes tend to be noisy affairs, but overall, cheerful environments with good learning. My senior classes on the contrary, are generally quiet and focused, because I insist on it. This varies, obviously, depending on the activity, but more self discipline is required of older kids and this is good preparation for adult life. My discipline is completely based on bonding with my students and establishing a strong rapport. If a teacher can get kids on side, then in many, even most, cases, anything is possible. However, even in my noisy, more chaotic classes, there are always boundaries and lines that must not be crossed.

I think aggression and disrespect should never be tolerated. Everyone, teacher and pupils, alike, have the right to a secure environment. So, to put it bluntly and politically incorrectly, we should be able to turf out a kid who won’t tow the line. Not permanently. But until such time as the issue has been dealt with and an apology made. Every teacher should insist on that.

Times might have changed, but human nature hasn’t and teachers need better support in this crucial issue.

Whist I would agree with discipline being a very important issue in regard to schools I despise this doom and gloom attitude whereby when someone says something that you don't agree with people reply with 'that's the problem of today's society'.

The way the initial discipline thread was worded asked what would have happened in the school which you worked. I do work in a school and have only recently left secondary school in the past number of years so I do have experience in regard to discipline and wasn't referring to 'school days gone by', I'm on the front line too. Many people have different approaches to discipline and all should be valued. My views about discipline might not be universally accepted but they are nonetheless valid for me.

I will agree that attitudes towards discipline have changed, I was told before I began my teaching placement by the head of the educational dept of a major university (I won't say which one) that I wasn't allowed to remove any student from a classroom even if they were disruptive because it would be my fault if they got themselves into trouble. I also will admit that I am afraid to discipline a child because of the crazy parents you can sometimes meet but I still enforce what I believe to be the correct decision. I feel that I shouldn't be afraid to make a decision about discipline when the decision is reasonable within the classroom without that fear. I will also admit that I am at a cross roads at times because discipline seems to have become a very complicated issue with regard to children with emotional or behavioral problems in the classroom.

I don't know any 'eager beavers' but I don't like this us and them attitude, we are all teachers. I may be new to teaching as are many doing their teaching practice but we do see what's going on in front of our eyes. I can only speak about my post but I wasn't blaming the teacher, I was simply saying what I would have done as I work in a school. It is very difficult to judge a situation by a post by one party, I also of course believe that threatening behavior by either party is totally unacceptable. A certain amount of compassion is needed in the teaching practice about a student's mind frame but drawing the line is important too. In my post I was trying to imagine what the student might have felt because sometimes it calms them down to emphatise with them and this was judged to have been blaming the teacher.

Yes, my classes are noisy sometimes too especially with younger classes but it is always related to the topic which we are covering which is key. I don't want to stunt their ability to engage with a topic. I ask them to put up their hands too to make sure my quieter students have a chance to say what they think. I think it helps to set boundaries too.

Theequalizer67

No learning can take place without proper classroom management.
Rules, routines, relationships (Marzano).
IMO, the teacher MUST be in control - absolutely no fudging this one!
However, that does mean having or indeed winning every single argument, discussion etc. etc.
Equally presence does not have to mean shouting (I find it funny how some teachers forget their own school days! This is what some kids actually want)
Generally, repeatedly raising your voice means you are losing.
A good referee - be discreet.

acequion

I disagree that raising your voice, repeatedly or otherwise, means you're losing.

Classroom management comes in different styles. Some teachers are shouters, others are not, whatever works! Though I agree that a bullish, shouty attitude doesn't achieve much in the long term.

Nicole.

acequion wrote: »

I disagree that raising your voice, repeatedly or otherwise, means you're losing.

Classroom management comes in different styles. Some teachers are shouters, others are not, whatever works! Though I agree that a bullish, shouty attitude doesn't achieve much in the long term.

I totally agree, I never shout because I remember being at school in classrooms where teachers did shout and it was disruptive to my learning. I was a quiet student and when teachers shouted (never at me) but when I was in the room it forced me into shut down mode. The atmosphere in the room after a teacher shouts is so tense, nobody feels that they can say anything even related to the coursework. I feel that teacher's are an example for students and if we shout why can we tell them not to? Obviously it's different in times of emergency where a quick and loud response is needed but in the day to day life of the school it isn't needed.

spurious

In one of my many moments of, um, something...I did a school wide survey of what it was that teachers did that the children disliked most.
The number one thing for just over 70% of them was shouting. They absolutely hate it. Second was giving out, which in many cases probably meant shouting too.

acequion

Sorry folks ie the last two posters,Spurious and Nicole,but you're both taking a one sided approach here,in the sense of presenting it from the kids point of view and either intentionally or otherwise, blaming the teacher.

What I said in my original post is very important - "with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally" Losing the plot might be launching into a tirade,throwing a kid out or even the teacher storming out of the class.

In an ideal world of course the teacher doesn't raise his /her voice. In an ideal world the teacher is always patient and always keeps the head.

But we are in the real world, which in the average Irish school of 2014, is far from ideal. And if teachers aren't going to yell and if we want to protect the quiet kid who hates a hostile atmosphere, then we must have better discipline supports,which is exactly my original point.

Nicole.

acequion wrote: »

Sorry folks ie the last two posters,Spurious and Nicole,but you're both taking a one sided approach here,in the sense of presenting it from the kids point of view and either intentionally or otherwise, blaming the teacher.

What I said in my original post is very important - "with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally" Losing the plot might be launching into a tirade,throwing a kid out or even the teacher storming out of the class.

In an ideal world of course the teacher doesn't raise his /her voice. In an ideal world the teacher is always patient and always keeps the head.

But we are in the real world, which in the average Irish school of 2014, is far from ideal. And if teachers aren't going to yell and if we want to protect the quiet kid who hates a hostile atmosphere, then we must have better discipline supports,which is exactly my original point.

But why would it be necessary for a person to shout to get their point across? Consider the effects that a shouting teacher has on a classroom, it could be harmful for the student teacher relationship. Yes, teachers are overworked and under supported but should this be taken out on the children? Surely we are there to teach them to be well mannered citizens of this country. People have made the point about discipline in relation to what if a child behaved a certain way in the workplace for example shouting, a teacher is in their workplace. I don't know why a person cannot discipline their students without shouting, you may get them to be quiet but at what cost? My favourite teacher never raised her voice at us once in the six years she taught us even though I knew she was frustrated with us at times. When we saw that she wasn't happy with us we quietened down because we respected her and her choice not to shout at us. I aim to be like her in my role as a teacher. You cannot escape the fact that students do not like being shouted at which is what Spurious was drawing attention to. I know you, the OP aren't advocating shouting all of the time, and your point is in relation to how the teacher feels in this situation, isn't that by your own definition bias towards the teacher? We pride ourselves on having an impact on the education of young people so we thus acknowledge that we have an impact on young people's lives so that means that every interaction that we have with students has a particular impact so while I understand that someone may shout etc, I don't believe that it is the right thing to do morally.

spurious

acequion wrote: »

Sorry folks ie the last two posters,Spurious and Nicole,but you're both taking a one sided approach here,in the sense of presenting it from the kids point of view and either intentionally or otherwise, blaming the teacher.

What I said in my original post is very important - "with ever deteriorating job conditions, overcrowded classes and little help with discipline, it’s no wonder we lose the plot occasionally" Losing the plot might be launching into a tirade,throwing a kid out or even the teacher storming out of the class.

In an ideal world of course the teacher doesn't raise his /her voice. In an ideal world the teacher is always patient and always keeps the head.

But we are in the real world, which in the average Irish school of 2014, is far from ideal. And if teachers aren't going to yell and if we want to protect the quiet kid who hates a hostile atmosphere, then we must have better discipline supports,which is exactly my original point.

I think I know what the real world is like - take it from me, without mentioning the schools, I spent almost 30 years at the coal face until I decided my life and health was worth more.

I was simply reporting what the children said. My colleagues and I were convinced they would say homework, but it wasn't - it was shouting by a mile.

They also disliked shouting by other students, but that was another survey.

acequion

Nicole. wrote: »

But why would it be necessary for a person to shout to get their point across? Consider the effects that a shouting teacher has on a classroom, it could be harmful for the student teacher relationship. Yes, teachers are overworked and under supported but should this be taken out on the children? Surely we are there to teach them to be well mannered citizens of this country. People have made the point about discipline in relation to what if a child behaved a certain way in the workplace for example shouting, a teacher is in their workplace. I don't know why a person cannot discipline their students without shouting, you may get them to be quiet but at what cost? My favourite teacher never raised her voice at us once in the six years she taught us even though I knew she was frustrated with us at times. When we saw that she wasn't happy with us we quietened down because we respected her and her choice not to shout at us. I aim to be like her in my role as a teacher. You cannot escape the fact that students do not like being shouted at which is what Spurious was drawing attention to. I know you, the OP aren't advocating shouting all of the time, and your point is in relation to how the teacher feels in this situation, isn't that by your own definition bias towards the teacher? We pride ourselves on having an impact on the education of young people so we thus acknowledge that we have an impact on young people's lives so that means that every interaction that we have with students has a particular impact so while I understand that someone may shout etc, I don't believe that it is the right thing to do morally.

I get what you're saying,Nicole, but I think you may be missing my point. I'm not advocating shouting. I'm simply saying that until such a time as better discipline supports are put in place, I find it perfectly understandable that an extremely stressed teacher loses the plot. And yes absolutely,my bias is towards the teacher,because not enough consideration is ever given to the teacher. A happy teacher creates a good environment, a stressed out teacher, well,go figure! It's great that you have such good memories of your favourite teacher,but don't forget that those,while not that long ago, were easier times for teachers.

I think,at least I hope, that my posts make it clear that I have great affection for my own students and because I like my job,I rarely get mad. But it can happen and when it does, the volume goes up. The kids don't like it and I don't either, but it's life in the real world and we get over it. Other work places are different,with different stressors, so I don't think you can compare.

My original point is that there are different styles of classroom management just as there are diverse teacher personalities. As long as it's mainly positive,I would say each to his own.

Nicole.

acequion wrote: »

I get what you're saying,Nicole, but I think you may be missing my point. I'm not advocating shouting. I'm simply saying that until such a time as better discipline supports are put in place, I find it perfectly understandable that an extremely stressed teacher loses the plot. And yes absolutely,my bias is towards the teacher,because not enough consideration is ever given to the teacher. A happy teacher creates a good environment, a stressed out teacher, well,go figure! It's great that you have such good memories of your favourite teacher,but don't forget that those,while not that long ago, were easier times for teachers.

I think,at least I hope, that my posts make it clear that I have great affection for my own students and because I like my job,I rarely get mad. But it can happen and when it does, the volume goes up. The kids don't like it and I don't either, but it's life in the real world and we get over it. Other work places are different,with different stressors, so I don't think you can compare.

My original point is that there are different styles of classroom management just as there are diverse teacher personalities. As long as it's mainly positive,I would say each to his own.

I did acknowledge that you didn't advocate such an approach of shouting all of the time. So you would reason that it's acceptable in some instances to shout in one workplace and not another? Question why exactly why this is. I know you say there are different stressers but there are people who work in other professions with very stressful jobs who deal with the public who are often not well behaved but it wouldn't be acceptable for them to shout at anytime. It isn't exactly comparable due to the size of a classroom compared to some workplaces I will admit but I still believe it is important to question why one thing is acceptable in one place and not another. What I mean is WHY is it unacceptable in some places? I won't go into how many years exactly it has been since I left school (let's just say I was still in school after Croke Park etc) but I did my placement there and have a lot of contact with this teacher and her approach hasn't changed as I have contact with her students during the working day.

The point you've made about diversity actually ties in with something I had written before you replied which is:I think this thread has been useful because it again highlights this theme of 'not having a handbook' for every situation with regard to discipline. It has also been interesting for me in the sense that if someone does not agree with you, you can be accused of idealism, a real Woodrow Wilson. Is it not possible for people to see the same thing but have different responses? In the previous thread about discipline it was also mentioned that the teacher's actions were reactionary but others also expressed that they would have handled the situation differently. Doesn't this highlight the diversity of attitudes relating to discipline? Does it make one opinion more right than another opinion, if so who has the power to make that judgement? You've referred to additional supports needed for teacher's in relation to discipline what supports specifically would you like to see in place? I would like to see a lower pupil teacher ratio so discipline would be easier to maintain and it would mean more one to one time with students so help them.

acequion

Nicole. wrote: »

I did acknowledge that you didn't advocate such an approach of shouting all of the time. So you would reason that it's acceptable in some instances to shout in one workplace and not another? Question why exactly why this is. I know you say there are different stressers but there are people who work in other professions with very stressful jobs who deal with the public who are often not well behaved but it wouldn't be acceptable for them to shout at anytime. It isn't exactly comparable due to the size of a classroom compared to some workplaces I will admit but I still believe it is important to question why one thing is acceptable in one place and not another. What I mean is WHY is it unacceptable in some places? I won't go into how many years exactly it has been since I left school (let's just say I was still in school after Croke Park etc) but I did my placement there and have a lot of contact with this teacher and her approach hasn't changed as I have contact with her students during the working day.

The point you've made about diversity actually ties in with something I had written before you replied which is:I think this thread has been useful because it again highlights this theme of 'not having a handbook' for every situation with regard to discipline. It has also been interesting for me in the sense that if someone does not agree with you, you can be accused of idealism, a real Woodrow Wilson. Is it not possible for people to see the same thing but have different responses? In the previous thread about discipline it was also mentioned that the teacher's actions were reactionary but others also expressed that they would have handled the situation differently. Doesn't this highlight the diversity of attitudes relating to discipline? Does it make one opinion more right than another opinion, if so who has the power to make that judgement? You've referred to additional supports needed for teacher's in relation to discipline what supports specifically would you like to see in place? I would like to see a lower pupil teacher ratio so discipline would be easier to maintain and it would mean more one to one time with students so help them.

You ask,"Is it not possible for people to see the same thing,but have different responses"? Absolutely.That's my whole point.To the extent that I think that you're now labouring the point about shouting. I'm fine with the fact that you're against shouting.You have your views and I have mine and my view is that a teacher losing the plot is not such a big deal in the great scheme of things. You don't agree and that's fine.Your former teacher has a different approach and that's fine too. Can we stop arguing about it now,please and allow the thread to develop?

Regarding the workplace. You can't compare a school with another workplace in this particular issue and I never said that it's acceptable to shout in one place and not another.I'm only talking about a classroom environment here and what may or may not happen in difficult situations.

What supports would I like? Also a lower pupil teacher ratio, to be sure.More support for teachers struggling with discipline. More general support and consideration for the teacher and more acknowledgement of the difficulties. Better mechanisms to remove very disruptive pupils,be it suspension or expulsion. A culture of lower tolerance of bad behaviour. I could go on.

evolving_doors

In my experience its strict silence in other teachers classes... I've found out the hard way that if you don't conform to what other teachers are doing (basically being a %%%% till Christmas philosophy) then the students will see you as the dos class and walk alllllll over you.

acequion

Armelodie wrote: »

In my experience its strict silence in other teachers classes... I've found out the hard way that if you don't conform to what other teachers are doing (basically being a %%%% till Christmas philosophy) then the students will see you as the dos class and walk alllllll over you.

That's interesting Armelodie. I guess a lot depends on the size of the school. My school is very big,with all sorts of classes,so that probably allows for a greater variety of class management and teaching styles, with no one teacher feeling obliged to follow some sort of set pattern.In fact that is something I really like about my own school.

I go back to my earlier point though. For me, bonding with the class and getting them onside is the key. And that has always worked very well for me, though sometimes I feel I should be stricter with juniors,for my own sake,as it takes less energy when they're all quiet and compliant. But I don't think having them all quiet and compliant is natural. I think it's too inhibiting,but I'd like to get the views of teachers who do it successfully. I've also never subscribed to the %%%% til Christmas philosophy.

f140

just out of curiosity what would you don in the following situations:


1. child didn't do his homework where you caught them out by checking? (they tried to get away with you not knowing)
2. child makes a joke, starts laughing and gets 3 others laughing
3. child tells you to fcuk off
4. child throws a paper airplane across the room

Afroshack

f140 wrote: »

just out of curiosity what would you don in the following situations:


1. child didn't do his homework where you caught them out by checking? (they tried to get away with you not knowing)
2. child makes a joke, starts laughing and gets 3 others laughing
3. child tells you to fcuk off
4. child throws a paper airplane across the room

1. Calmly assign them a detention - if they argue/protest they get a warning
2. Depends on the child - if it is someone who is persistantly disruptive and does that type of thing to be disruptive to others, they get a warning
3. kicked out, detention, phonecall home
4. warning


I just realised..my school's reaction to everything is to give them a warning rather than immediate sanctions..no wonder discipline is so bad!

teacherhead

f140 wrote: »

just out of curiosity what would you don in the following situations:


1. child didn't do his homework where you caught them out by checking? (they tried to get away with you not knowing)
2. child makes a joke, starts laughing and gets 3 others laughing
3. child tells you to fcuk off
4. child throws a paper airplane across the room

1. Stay in at lunchtime for a detention with me and record in journal. Year Head follows up journals and further sanctions apply as notes accumulate

2. Depends on situation, no set procedure for me but would involve a talking to first and escalate if necessary. Also depends on the people involved, if it was ongoing etc.

3. Child ****s off home for a few days

4. Child accompanied me around at lunchtime picking up papers / cleaning the canteen / washing desks

kermitpwee

acequion wrote: »

I get what you're saying,Nicole, but I think you may be missing my point. I'm not advocating shouting. I'm simply saying that until such a time as better discipline supports are put in place, I find it perfectly understandable that an extremely stressed teacher loses the plot.

This is unacceptable and unprofessional that you find it understandable that a stressed teacher can lose the plot. They are kids that we are dealing with, we are the adults. There is no other job you would get away with shouting at people in. It is not necessary and counter productive, everyday I manage my emotions in class because I am a educated professional and I am in control of my mind regardless of what the kids do or say or regardless of the stress levels. I enjoy my job as a result and the kids feel safe in my class and it results in less discipline problems than someone who shouts at them.
We are the adults so lets take control by having fair rules, mutual respect where the kids wont shout at me and I wont shout at them and build a relationship with the students.

acequion

kermitpwee wrote: »

This is unacceptable and unprofessional that you find it understandable that a stressed teacher can lose the plot. They are kids that we are dealing with, we are the adults. There is no other job you would get away with shouting at people in. It is not necessary and counter productive, everyday I manage my emotions in class because I am a educated professional and I am in control of my mind regardless of what the kids do or say or regardless of the stress levels. I enjoy my job as a result and the kids feel safe in my class and it results in less discipline problems than someone who shouts at them.
We are the adults so lets take control by having fair rules, mutual respect where the kids wont shout at me and I wont shout at them and build a relationship with the students.

Listen, I don't know the first thing about you but I do know that your righteous and provocative attitude had a lot to do with the last thread on discipline getting closed, and the OP of that thread quite rightfully reported you for your attitude.

If you've got it all so sussed and you're so perfect with the kids, it's a bit ironic that you can't see that you are actually being offensive to your collegues with your sanctimonious criticism.

When you're teaching as long as I am, come back and lecture me with your black and white views!

Til then, I wish you a good Easter.

kermitpwee

acequion wrote: »

Listen, I don't know the first thing about you but I do know that your righteous and provocative attitude had a lot to do with the last thread on discipline getting closed, and the OP of that thread quite rightfully reported you for your attitude.

If you've got it all so sussed and you're so perfect with the kids, it's a bit ironic that you can't see that you are actually being offensive to your collegues with your sanctimonious criticism.

When you're teaching as long as I am, come back and lecture me with your black and white views!

Til then, I wish you a good Easter.

Maybe let the mods do their job! I am amazed at how sensitive teachers on here are. I don't wish to insult you, I am not telling you to change your ways. I am stating that its not acceptable or professional to hold your belief that its okay to shout at kids when your under stress. If I was to ever shout at a kid I would immediately have to apologise profusely because I believe its wrong. It is in my eyes and in the eyes of the school I teach in a form of bullying. I am teaching 10 years and have an excellent discipline record, I have had 80 to 120 kids in the one lunch room of various years and kept them as quiet as a mouse. The principal and senior members of staff have asked me what is my secret, that they could not do it.
The answer is reflection! For the first 2 years of my career I was a shouter. I let my emotions get in the way until one day I came home and was about to quit. I started to evaluate the actions I had made that day. I started to question my classroom management, I started to experiment with various methods and I became a better teacher.
I am not here to make you feel bad but perhaps to make you question yourself.
Top tip for all teachers, never eve use sarcasm its something kids don't understand and adults rarely enjoy when its used on them!

kermitpwee

If I am upsetting people in here I will agree to never post in the Teaching and Lecturing forum again. It will be a sad day as I have a lot to give the forum! If the mods want me out then I will agree.

acequion

kermitpwee wrote: »

Maybe let the mods do their job! I am amazed at how sensitive teachers on here are. I don't wish to insult you, I am not telling you to change your ways. I am stating that its not acceptable or professional to hold your belief that its okay to shout at kids when your under stress. If I was to ever shout at a kid I would immediately have to apologise profusely because I believe its wrong. It is in my eyes and in the eyes of the school I teach in a form of bullying. I am teaching 10 years and have an excellent discipline record, I have had 80 to 120 kids in the one lunch room of various years and kept them as quiet as a mouse. The principal and senior members of staff have asked me what is my secret, that they could not do it.
The answer is reflection! For the first 2 years of my career I was a shouter. I let my emotions get in the way until one day I came home and was about to quit. I started to evaluate the actions I had made that day. I started to question my classroom management, I started to experiment with various methods and I became a better teacher.
I am not here to make you feel bad but perhaps to make you question yourself.
Top tip for all teachers, never eve use sarcasm its something kids don't understand and adults rarely enjoy when its used on them!

Top tip for you.Question yourself!

kermitpwee

acequion wrote: »

Top tip for you.Question yourself!

I do all the time:D

Nicole.

kermitpwee wrote: »

For the first 2 years of my career I was a shouter. I let my emotions get in the way until one day I came home and was about to quit. I started to evaluate the actions I had made that day. I started to question my classroom management, I started to experiment with various methods and I became a better teacher.
I am not here to make you feel bad but perhaps to make you question yourself.

Fair play for coming out, being honest and reviewing your teaching practice and I'm glad that you were able to move on from a difficult time. It's nice to hear stories like this and to see a teacher stop and evaluate their actions which I all think we should do because none of us are perfect.

I would also agree that many on this forum are very sensitive, I can understand why, teaching is a way of life for us, and for many of us it defines who we are. However, I also agree that constructive debate is helpful to our learning as people. I find the sensitivity off-putting at times because at college we always debate things, find holes in each other's logical and thus increase our understanding of things. The head of my department told us to do this and I believe that we should all use it as a tool to improve our practice. I never mean to be offensive to people even though I have been told I was offensive or that I have misunderstood something, but I haven't, I just have a different view of the topic. After all, aren't we mean to be academics? Have we not spent years in college debating, criticizing and learning? Don't we always tell our pupils that constructive criticism is helpful?

acequion

Nicole. wrote: »

Fair play for coming out, being honest and reviewing your teaching practice and I'm glad that you were able to move on from a difficult time. It's nice to hear stories like this and to see a teacher stop and evaluate their actions which I all think we should do because none of us are perfect.

I would also agree that many on this forum are very sensitive, I can understand why, teaching is a way of life for us, and for many of us it defines who we are. However, I also agree that constructive debate is helpful to our learning as people. I find the sensitivity off-putting at times because at college we always debate things, find holes in each other's logical and thus increase our understanding of things. The head of my department told us to do this and I believe that we should all use it as a tool to improve our practice. I never mean to be offensive to people even though I have been told I was offensive or that I have misunderstood something, but I haven't, I just have a different view of the topic. After all, aren't we mean to be academics? Have we not spent years in college debating, criticizing and learning? Don't we always tell our pupils that constructive criticism is helpful?

And what I find off putting is people who insist that their way is the right way,whose idea of constructive criticism is imposing their opinions on others,regardless of that fact that others have a different viewpoint, and who absolutely must hog a thread and have the last word.

So,be it. I'm actually amused by the tunnel vision at this stage. It would have been nice to get the views of various posters, with everyone respecting differences, but it looks like this thread on discipline is as doomed as the last one for the same reasons. It also looks as if the sensible folk are switched off for the holidays.:cool:

kermitpwee

acequion wrote: »

And what I find off putting is people who insist that their way is the right way,whose idea of constructive criticism is imposing their opinions on others,regardless of that fact that others have a different viewpoint, and who absolutely must hog a thread and have the last word.

So,be it. I'm actually amused by the tunnel vision at this stage. It would have been nice to get the views of various posters, with everyone respecting differences, but it looks like this thread on discipline is as doomed as the last one for the same reasons. It also looks as if the sensible folk are switched off for the holidays.:cool:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Mahatma Gandhi

Im out kids enjoy the forum bye!

evolving_doors

Mod Warning:
Seriously folks, this thread has good potential, please consider these points if you are new to discussion fora;

1. Discuss the point at hand. If you disagree, that's ok, but don't make judgements on other posters teaching ...we dont know each other that well.
2. If your post includes the word "you" then you need to reconsider the what has been written. Are you discussing the issue or the person?
3. Do not refer to mod decisions, We dont want to be brought into a spat (esp. during holidays).
4. READ THE CHARTER (that was me shouting, next time itll all be in caps.)
5. We honestly dont mind the odd infraction if folk are new .. But infractions for the same reasons means you ain't learning too good.

Do not refer to this post..(I'm serious this time )

Drive on.

Bananatop

I think the Easter break has come at the right time! I know it has for me, I've been tearing my hair out these last few weeks :pac:

MrJones1973

We are human beings not Valium fueled Emotional sponges. I think we as teachers tolerate too much in the classrooms. Health and welfare legislation applies to us. We act as if it doesnt. If you were in a workplace and a colleague/subordinate flung something at you-what would happen? If this was a second or third incident . (Everyone can have a once off). You would not be permitted back in the work place on Health and welfare grounds. An evaluation (psychological) would be insisted upon. Believe it or not-all we can do is ask for a psych report!
Contrast what happens in schools?
What if in your workplace you had a small cohort who slowed down work by say 20%? What would happen? Im under no illusions about how difficult it is to fire people but there are ways. I do accept that under 15 -you should bend over backwards to keep kids in but Im scratching my head as to why we have to put up with molly coddling at senior level?

But the Key thing for discipline in schools is to have a good Principal and in my experience they remove their bxxxx before they take the job. Mostly.

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

We are human beings not Valium fueled Emotional sponges. I think we as teachers tolerate too much in the classrooms. Health and welfare legislation applies to us. We act as if it doesnt. If you were in a workplace and a colleague/subordinate flung something at you-what would happen? If this was a second or third incident . (Everyone can have a once off). You would not be permitted back in the work place on Health and welfare grounds. An evaluation (psychological) would be insisted upon. Believe it or not-all we can do is ask for a psych report!
Contrast what happens in schools?
What if in your workplace you had a small cohort who slowed down work by say 20%? What would happen? Im under no illusions about how difficult it is to fire people but there are ways. I do accept that under 15 -you should bend over backwards to keep kids in but Im scratching my head as to why we have to put up with molly coddling at senior level?

But the Key thing for discipline in schools is to have a good Principal and in my experience they remove their bxxxx before they take the job. Mostly.

@? I don't think its that simple.

Its not the same as any normal workplace... you are in loco parentis to the children... would parents at home put their child out on the street for misbehaviour. Shouldn't the school be a mirror of society? Exclusion into the prison system hasn't really got us anywhere. I heard today that 6/10 of children who have a parent in prison wind up in prison themselves.

Does the student have a learning problem or does the teacher have a teaching problem?

MrJones1973

Armelodie wrote: »

@? I don't think its that simple.

Its not the same as any normal workplace... you are in loco parentis to the children... would parents at home put their child out on the street for misbehaviour. Shouldn't the school be a mirror of society? Exclusion into the prison system hasn't really got us anywhere. I heard today that 6/10 of children who have a parent in prison wind up in prison themselves.

Does the student have a learning problem or does the teacher have a teaching problem?

It is our workplace. Age of criminal consent is 10 ie you can be charged with a crime because you know right from wrong. The Health and Welfare act applies in school. You cant just park it. All laws apply in schools. We excuse atrocious behavior by pretending its not a workplace. Im not sure where you got-the send pupils home? I never advocated that by Principals, You obviously have a process. Its not instantaneous
I also think its quite a leap to relate people going to prison and expulsions. A tiny % of students expelled end up in prison. Taking away your freedom or telling you you cant go to a particular school are worlds apart.

Excluding kids is a last resort but it has to be done. They other kids who are willing to behave-deserve an Education not their teachers spending ten minutes trying to get x to do straight forward tasks. The expelled kid has rights too-but not unlimited, Its up to the state to provide back up for these kids but failing that-its up to the school to educate the overwhelming majority who want to work and remove out those who dont. Not all dossers-just those who wont work and want to stop others from working.
If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by bad behavior-what would you say to me?

The local Parentis argument is weak. Teachers and parental roles are not interchangeable. There is some over lap but not all that much. I deal with 25 plus for a start. They deal with what 2? So My role will allow me to do stuff a parent cant because of numbers etc and same for a parent

MrJones1973

Is that it? Armelodie? Do you agree? Curious?

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

It is our workplace. Age of criminal consent is 10 ie you can be charged with a crime because you know right from wrong. The Health and Welfare act applies in school. You cant just park it. All laws apply in schools. We excuse atrocious behavior by pretending its not a workplace. Im not sure where you got-the send pupils home? I never advocated that by Principals, You obviously have a process. Its not instantaneous
I also think its quite a leap to relate people going to prison and expulsions. A tiny % of students expelled end up in prison. Taking away your freedom or telling you you cant go to a particular school are worlds apart.

Excluding kids is a last resort but it has to be done. They other kids who are willing to behave-deserve an Education not their teachers spending ten minutes trying to get x to do straight forward tasks. The expelled kid has rights too-but not unlimited, Its up to the state to provide back up for these kids but failing that-its up to the school to educate the overwhelming majority who want to work and remove out those who dont. Not all dossers-just those who wont work and want to stop others from working.
If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by bad behavior-what would you say to me?

The local Parentis argument is weak. Teachers and parental roles are not interchangeable. There is some over lap but not all that much. I deal with 25 plus for a start. They deal with what 2? So My role will allow me to do stuff a parent cant because of numbers etc and same for a parent

Well essentially I would take the view that the 'workplace' arguement is weaker than the loco parentis arguement. In saying all that though I've never been physically threatened and I think I manage to get those who are interested onto the next stage!

MrJones1973

Not a very detailed rebuttal. I think my arguments had more supporting detail. The health and Welfare Act as withall legislation in our state applies in schools. Those involved in the union -know its being used. Schools being sued etc. Never gets to court-settlements etc. However obviously we dont go quoting H and W all the time. There is obviously some difference between an office and a classroom but teachers tend to suck it up too much . You failed to answer my question also-in bold. Mr white closes his marking folder and says " Im disappointed Armelodie" and marks her as a C.

evolving_doors

Well ok then lets follow the logic of the said emboldened statement and broaden it a bit..
If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by someone with a Special Educational Need (adhd or a disruptive form of Autism) that took a lot of a teachers time ..would it be proper to have this student removed 'for the greater good'?

I think lately the terminology has changed from 'challenging behaviour' to 'behaviour that challanges'... As I said, is it the learning problem or the teaching problem that should be addressed? Sure there is a process and a code of behaviour in every school but isn't it incumbent on us to question what triggered the behaviour, what makes a student act out in one particular class. As we all know, most days we chose our battles to some extent, so we dont blindly follow every single rule. I think if you are dealing with kids its not quite the same as dealing with adults. There's always other developmental factors at play.

MrJones1973

The vast majority of students dont have special need or autism for that matter. The vast majority of disruptive puipls dont have special needs. I never put that in my question nor was it implied.

True-its worth exploring the causes of disruption but we are in a chronically underfunded system. I would love to send many kids to a psychologist but you know and I know there is feck all access.
So I dont regard my question as answered. Many kids disrupt for the sheer joy of it-knowing the " only kids" attitude will see them safely in the system. They often will get jobs where they know this behavior would not be tolerated.
Bleeding hearts want inclusion of disruptive pupils at the cost of the majority. Same bleeding hearts wont fund system properly .
The Minority do not have the right to disrupt the majority. Despite bending over backwards-many will continue to act the clown . You know in your heart that you and I would be making much more progress without the clowns. You can be an acrobat in class and they will still disrupt. In fact group work allows them to let rip. They want to entertained and the new Jc seems to give into that attitude. If only life was always entertaining!
True-its not the same as dealing with Adults but the line of accepting poor behavior has shifted too much., Too many bleeding hearts -who are safely not teaching or in middle class schools are propagating this false inclusion.
Though I respect your opinions and dont count you as a bleeding heart.

seavill

What should be done with the "clowns" - should they be thrown out? If they are at 12 or 13 what happens to them then?

Afroshack

seavill wrote: »

What should be done with the "clowns" - should they be thrown out? If they are at 12 or 13 what happens to them then?

Age is a big factor. So many kids act up at age 12 and 13, but by 15,16,17 they have grown up a little and with the LC looming, they know they can't afford to act up.

In all honesty, if I was a teacher to an LC class where there was one persistently disruptive pupil (and detentions, phonecalls home etc hadn't worked) then I would want that child pulled out altogether until he had learned to behave. Assign work on a weekly basis, send it home and let the parents homeschool them. Child can return when they are bothered to concentrate and stop disrupting others. I'm all for working out solutions with troubled or disruptive kids, but at the expense of another student's LC, it really is not fair.

MrJones1973

I think under 15/16 you must be careful about expulsions but that doesnt mean it should not happen. However at 17/18 if you are still acting up then I tend to agree with expulsion. The majority have rights. No students right to an education is unlimited and I have seen kids despair over having to be in a class where a good third of the time is taken up with clowns. I have seen their grades go down because they cant get attention because Johnny rotten wastes so much time.
You always look for ways to instill behavior and discipline but in 5th and 6th year in most schools (not middle class areas) there are at least ten toe rags running circles around a system. Some of these kids do have special needs but even in those cases I have seen them turn on/off the special need when it suits. Im really talking about ADHD.

seavill

So i will repeat the questions - what do you say should be done with the "clowns" at 12/13?

evolving_doors

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The vast majority of students dont have special need or autism for that matter.

Exactly my point... the vast majority of pupils don't misbehave either.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

The vast majority of disruptive puipls dont have special needs. I never put that in my question nor was it implied.

Yes you never implied it... however.. as I said following on from your emboldened statement "If I was a decent kid having my education destroyed by bad behavior-what would you say to me?"
What would you say to the same kid who was having their education destroyed by another 'demanding' student who requires a lot of personal teacher time.

What would you seek to do with this 'disruptive' student? You may indeed argue that the two situations require or deserve different strategies. But as I questioned earlier.. 'Does the student have a learning problem or do you have the teaching problem'. In the case of the student with an SEN I'm sure you would do your best to seek out help and try new strategies or maybe ask a few colleagues how they include the student better within the lesson. Why then is it the first port of call to blame the misbehaving student rather than question our own teaching approaches. As I have posed the question earlier.. why do some students chose to act out in our classes but wouldn't look sideways in another class.

If you say it is a 'management' issue of non-support ( or 'loosing their ba&&s' as you put it')... Shouldn't it be also a whole school approach with all teachers involved.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

True-its worth exploring the causes of disruption but we are in a chronically underfunded system. I would love to send many kids to a psychologist but you know and I know there is feck all access.

It's worth exploring the causes of disruption because we are in a chronically underfunded system. Notice your next sentence pointed the solution towards the 'outsourcing approach' i.e. sending the kid to a psychologist. I agree that class size is a factor (probably the msot limiting factor these days)... however if you take it to the other extreme and you had, say, a class of 5 pupils (we can dream!) with one disruptive kid. I bet you and I would do a heck of a lot more talking and discussing with that 1 pupil to get to the root of the misbehaviour. Back to the current extreme of a class of 30.. why should we act differently towards that one student who disrupts the class.. just because of class size?

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

So I dont regard my question as answered. Many kids disrupt for the sheer joy of it-knowing the " only kids" attitude will see them safely in the system. They often will get jobs where they know this behavior would not be tolerated. Bleeding hearts want inclusion of disruptive pupils at the cost of the majority. Same bleeding hearts wont fund system properly. The Minority do not have the right to disrupt the majority. Despite bending over backwards-many will continue to act the clown . You know in your heart that you and I would be making much more progress without the clowns. You can be an acrobat in class and they will still disrupt. In fact group work allows them to let rip. They want to entertained and the new Jc seems to give into that attitude. If only life was always entertaining!
True-its not the same as dealing with Adults but the line of accepting poor behavior has shifted too much., Too many bleeding hearts -who are safely not teaching or in middle class schools are propagating this false inclusion.
Though I respect your opinions and dont count you as a bleeding heart.

I totally agree that the new 'sexy' JC is pushing for more edutainement where it'll be all singing and dancing without the foundations (or boring stuff) that just has to be learned off by rote. The more we pander to this the more the student expects to be entertained rather than educated.
I know only too well that there are a few students who do act out for the sheer fun of it, but I always have to ask if it's just my class (why is this) or if it's in all classes... is this a cue for all teachers to get together, surely someone must have an idea! We're stuck with these students whether we like it or not.

MrJones1973

This could go on and on and we both know I will never fully agree with you nor you with me. Comparing a class of 5 with 30 is not a strong argument. Firstly you have more time with a class of 5-you simply dont with a class of 30.
You are right about a whole school approach but that can be difficult as some people roll with the disruption. They accept it and the wasted time does not bother them.. But I do agree more whole school approaches are needed. We need leadership. But in my experience we dont get it.
Sure I often ask colleagues for perspectives but often you get the same response about a core few. They just want to disrupt and despite bending over backwards they continue to do so.
I dont have a ;Teaching problem' with any student. I can teach. I have to teach 25 students on avegage and cant adjust my approach to suit the 2/3 who want to be entertained and are determined to disrupt. You have to pick an approach that works for the 25. Of course you allow for differentiation but realistically these clowns will soak up so much time-that the genuinely weak student who sits quietly goes downhill.
So we will agree to disagree but one last question
Does the whole school approach work in your school?
Does talking to pupils/investigating as you seem to do-WorK?

Pinkycharm

Restorative practice, isn't that the new thing??

evolving_doors

Pinkycharm wrote: »

Restorative practice, isn't that the new thing??

Brehon Law around 12th Century!!