Champs Elysees

Sea The Starz

I think this stallion has the most potential of any stallion standing at the mo given his price of 5k sterling. I'd be all over him if i had a mare. Will eat my laptop if he's not triple his current price next year. That is all.

tryfix

Sea The Starz wrote: »

I think this stallion has the most potential of any stallion standing at the mo given his price of 5k sterling. I'd be all over him if i had a mare. Will eat my laptop if he's not triple his current price next year. That is all.

A Gp 1 winning full brother to Dansili and Cacique, Banks Hill and Intercontinental, all five matings between Danehill and Hasili producing GP 1 winners except for Dansili himself who was multiple times placed in Championship Gp 1 company. out of one of the greatest blue hen mares of the modern era.

He's a great prospect and started his career very cheaply indeed.

Sea The Starz

As I expected Champs Elysees having an excellent season with Jack Naylor becoming his 6th stakes winner this year (same as Sea the Stars), and very interesting that all of them are fillies. 5k sterling this yr was a snip.

Everyone saying STS having a great start to stud , but given the fact that he's 85k and covered the who's who of the stud book I think Champs Elysees has outperformed him thus far given his book of mares and his lowly fee in comparison. Not surprisingly imo as I think the Hasili family is superior to that of Urban Seas, not to mention danehill vs cape cross as a sire of sires.

Jack Naylor basically his only 2yo to run so far, so if he can get a couple more promising 2 year olds this I think he's a very exciting stallion and could potentially follow his bro Dansili and become a premier sire.

Peintre Celebre

Getting a bit ahead of yourself there?

Sea The Starz

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Getting a bit ahead of yourself there?

In what sense?

Peintre Celebre

To say he has had a better start to Sea the Stars. Didn't Duke of Marmalade have 8 or so Stakes winners from his first book. 6 stakes winners from a 5k fee is very good alright but Sea the Stars has sired 2 Classic winners and has had outstanding figures through the ring. Champs Elyesses colts sold very well averaged around 32k the fillies were awful through the ring they just matched the cover fee. They would want to be selling better if his fee is going to go 3x that next year.

Danehill obviously a much better sire of sires but what do they say, you don't want a slow son of a precocious sire. Dylan Thomas, the well bred Duke of Marmalade very similar to Champs in that sense.

Wouldn't agree about Hinsili being a better broodmare. Hinsili didn't produce any outstanding runners even if they were gr.1 winners. Sea the Stars and Galileo two top class Derby winners and the family gets stronger even through the generations. Wonder of Wonders, Bracelet, All too Beautiful, Wading the list is endless

Sea The Starz

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

To say he has had a better start to Sea the Stars. Didn't Duke of Marmalade have 8 or so Stakes winners from his first book. 6 stakes winners from a 5k fee is very good alright but Sea the Stars has sired 2 Classic winners and has had outstanding figures through the ring. Champs Elyesses colts sold very well averaged around 32k the fillies were awful through the ring they just matched the cover fee. They would want to be selling better if his fee is going to go 3x that next year.

Danehill obviously a much better sire of sires but what do they say, you don't want a slow son of a precocious sire. Dylan Thomas, the well bred Duke of Marmalade very similar to Champs in that sense.

Wouldn't agree about Hinsili being a better broodmare. Hinsili didn't produce any outstanding runners even if they were gr.1 winners. Sea the Stars and Galileo two top class Derby winners and the family gets stronger even through the generations. Wonder of Wonders, Bracelet, All too Beautiful, Wading the list is endless

Duke of Marmalade covered at 40k first season. Champs Elysees first crop covered at 10k gbp. STS at 85k euro. Have you looked at the respective book of mares for their first year covering? Do you just disregard the quality of the mare? STS got the best book of mares for a first season sire I have ever seen, so to compare the two on absolute terms doesn't make sense. What would Champs Elysees have to do in your opinion to outperform STS.

With regards to sales results, I don't care about what Champs has sold for in the past, I recommended him this year at 5k, so we will have to see respective sales results next year and the year after to see how he performed (given my assumption that CE fee will increase, and STS won't I would think results would be a lot more favourable)

Cool so we agree Danehill is obviously a far superior sire, and sire of sires.

Fair enough, Urban Sea is a ridiculously good family, just my personal opinion that Hasili's is better, seriously LOL at "no outstanding runners", made me laugh. If we you think that then you must think Galileo was not an outstanding racehorse, Golan and fantastic light the only horses of note he beat really, and considering he couldn't beat Fantastic Light over 10f.- not outstanding.

Peintre Celebre

Sea The Starz wrote: »

Duke of Marmalade covered at 40k first season. Champs Elysees first crop covered at 10k gbp. STS at 85k euro. Have you looked at the respective book of mares for their first year covering? Do you just disregard the quality of the mare? STS got the best book of mares for a first season sire I have ever seen, so to compare the two on absolute terms doesn't make sense. What would Champs Elysees have to do in your opinion to outperform STS.

With regards to sales results, I don't care about what Champs has sold for in the past, I recommended him this year at 5k, so we will have to see respective sales results next year and the year after to see how he performed (given my assumption that CE fee will increase, and STS won't I would think results would be a lot more favourable)

Cool so we agree Danehill is obviously a far superior sire, and sire of sires.

Fair enough, Urban Sea is a ridiculously good family, just my personal opinion that Hasili's is better, seriously LOL at "no outstanding runners", made me laugh. If we you think that then you must think Galileo was not an outstanding racehorse, Golan and fantastic light the only horses of note he beat really, and considering he couldn't beat Fantastic Light over 10f.- not outstanding.

Of course I didn't disregard the mares. Sea the Stars probably got the best book bar Frankel. You say you can't compare them on face which is correct they're at totally opposite ends of the spectrum. For what it's worth wouldn't be all that surprised if Sea the Star's fee did increase slightly especially if Taghrooda beats the boys or Sea the Moon wins the Arc. Who is the last sire to have two classic winners in his first book?

And why the need for the ''LOL''? Just which of Hasili's offspring was an outstanding racehorse? You do realise there is a difference between top class and outstanding? Sea the Stars, Frankel, Montjeu, Zarkava, Generous, Peintre Celebre all outstanding. Champs Elysees, Cacique, Banks Hill? Note I said Galileo was a top class Derby winner, not outstanding. LOL

andyman

The way I look at it, although Sea The Stars has had an incredible book of mares for his first season, so have the likes of Galileo, Fastnet Rock, Oasis Dream, Dansili etc. He still sired two Classic Winners in his first crop and, in my opinion, two of the better horses in this years Arc. That is an incredible achievement whatever he cost and whatever he had available to him.

Peintre Celebre

I wouldn't strictly agree Andy, think it would have been very poor if Sea the Stars didnt get a group 1 winner with the book he got, but 2 classic winners is a very good start. The difference with the names you listed is none got a book like that, Galileo did sire Nightime to win the Irish Guineas in his first book. Dansili started from 8k so there is every chance Champs Elysees could keep progressing too. Fastnet Rock got a very small book first time in Ireland. When the bigger books start racing expect some top class sprinters on good ground cannot wait

andyman

I wasn't necessarily talking about those horses getting good books first time around, more this year. Suggesting that, although STS first book was incredible, he was already entering a competition with established sires who get top books year on year.

I never expected him to get a Classic, never mind two. I do agree there would have been worrying times if he didn't secure a group one. The fact that his best 2yo (in UK and Ire at least) hasn't been able to train on so far makes his achievements even better in my opinion.

Sea The Starz

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Of course I didn't disregard the mares. Sea the Stars probably got the best book bar Frankel. You say you can't compare them on face which is correct they're at totally opposite ends of the spectrum. For what it's worth wouldn't be all that surprised if Sea the Star's fee did increase slightly especially if Taghrooda beats the boys or Sea the Moon wins the Arc. Who is the last sire to have two classic winners in his first book?

And why the need for the ''LOL''? Just which of Hasili's offspring was an outstanding racehorse? You do realise there is a difference between top class and outstanding? Sea the Stars, Frankel, Montjeu, Zarkava, Generous, Peintre Celebre all outstanding. Champs Elysees, Cacique, Banks Hill? Note I said Galileo was a top class Derby winner, not outstanding. LOL

Afaik, just last year New Approach had 2 and was close to 3. STS could potentially get 3 this year. Personally I'd be very surprised if his price was put up, but then again I was surprised they didn't drop it at the start of this year. I'd say there was some discount on the advertised 85 though.

The difference between top class and outstanding - that's very subjective. In your reply you quoted STS and Galileo immediately after saying hasili hadn't produced an outstanding runner so presumed you were saying Galileo was outstanding or at least that's the way it read . Banks Hill was a champion 3 yr old and older filly in Europe - some may say she was outstanding.

Thread has completely derailed lol. Regardez has a good chance this evening at York, interesting to see if she can improve from Newcastle.

Huntthe

I like champs élysées too but I think you're comparing apples with oranges. As regards whether sts can be deemed a success or not as a sire of race horses (as opposed to a commercial entity) it's hard to say. At worst he's decent. if at end of the season he ends up with a champion filly and a German derby winner as his best two runners will the people that sent him the top class mares be returning or will they be looking at Galileo, dansili or dubawi instead ?

tryfix

Huntthe wrote: »

I like champs élysées too but I think you're comparing apples with oranges. As regards whether sts can be deemed a success or not as a sire of race horses (as opposed to a commercial entity) it's hard to say. At worst he's decent. if at end of the season he ends up with a champion filly and a German derby winner as his best two runners will the people that sent him the top class mares be returning or will they be looking at Galileo, dansili or dubawi instead ?

At the very least Sea The Stars has bought time with his two wonder horses.

I'd judge him a success, he has a good deal of winners and okay performers, but he falls down badly on group class 2yos.

The only worry with him is the lack of precocity and the lack of serious quality classic trial prospects in Ireland and England.

Both Sea The Moon and Taghrooda are exceptionally physically strong looking individuals for 3yos, something which I don't see in the rest of his stock and something which the Galileo's don't need to be to be top performers.

FIVE2_THREE

tryfix wrote: »

At the very least Sea The Stars has bought time with his two wonder horses.

I'd judge him a success, he has a good deal of winners and okay performers, but he falls down badly on group class 2yos.

The only worry with him is the lack of precocity and the lack of serious quality classic trial prospects in Ireland and England.

Both Sea The Moon and Taghrooda are exceptionally physically strong looking individuals for 3yos, something which I don't see in the rest of his stock and something which the Galileo's don't need to be to be top performers.

I think some risk the chance of overrating Sea the Stars. indeed he has produced two group one winners in his first crop BUT what are the chances of those two training on at 4 ? the Filly will probably retire at years end and the German horse still has questions to answer. Breeders these days want a bigger bang for their buck. sure a fast peaking 3 year old gives you a chance to compete for the classics but a stallion prospect can really stamp himself if He trains on as a four year old. Galileo has Frankel who trained on at 4, High Chaparral Has So You Think who trained on at 4. If the Sea The Stars offspring close the door after their 3 year old season it will hurt his value. Storm Cat had the highest advertised stud fee in North America since Northern Dancer when he was advertised at $500k soon after his Value plummeted not because breeders were unwilling to pay the fee but because they noticed a trend. and the trend was most of his noted offspring hit the wall and tailed off at 4.

ronsh2000

Surely it's a bit early to start cribbing about Sea The Stars' four-year-olds. He doesn't have any yet. Give the poor horse a chance.

Huntthe

Sts problem will be the lack of 2 yr old precocity, not whether they train on.

tryfix

Sea The Stars now up to 3 Gp1 winners from his first 3yo crop. With the disqualification of the Prix Saint-Alary winner We Are, the Sea The Stars filly Vazira gets promoted to 1st place.