Corrib Logboats

_Puma_

Really interesting reading about the Corrib Logboats that were discovered by Sonar mapping of Lough Corrib. The 4500 year old wreck really is a massive find.

In total there were 12 logboats discovered in the Corrib dating from 2500BC to the 11th Century. Press release from the department that some of the weapons found in the newer boats would be on display in the National Museum of Ireland's battle of Clontarf exhibition.

One thing that jumped out at me when reading the release was that some of the boats that contained the weapons may have been on a raid. Being from Annaghdown we learnt about the 11th century abbey ruins on the shore of the Corrib that were presumably burnt down and rebuilt on a number of occasions after Viking raids. The wreck where the weapons were found is approx 6km away from the abbey ruins so would I be right in assuming that was were these raiders could have been going.

robp

_Puma_ wrote: »

Really interesting reading about the Corrib Logboats that were discovered by Sonar mapping of Lough Corrib. The 4500 year old wreck really is a massive find.

In total there were 12 logboats discovered in the Corrib dating from 2500BC to the 11th Century. Press release from the department that some of the weapons found in the newer boats would be on display in the National Museum of Ireland's battle of Clontarf exhibition.

One thing that jumped out at me when reading the release was that some of the boats that contained the weapons may have been on a raid. Being from Annaghdown we learnt about the 11th century abbey ruins on the shore of the Corrib that were presumably burnt down and rebuilt on a number of occasions after Viking raids. The wreck where the weapons were found is approx 6km away from the abbey ruins so would I be right in assuming that was were these raiders could have been going.

I 'd love to read the official report about the axe finds. A lot of these boats were basically for freight transport. Weapon delivery maybe?

dublinviking

The tradition of making logboats survived in Slavic lands until 20th century. In medieval time Slavs were famous for their log boats:

De Administrando Imperio details how the Slavs built monoxyla that they sold to Vikings in Kiev.[9] These ships were then used against the Byzantine Empire during the Rus'–Byzantine Wars of the 9th and 10th centuries. They used dugouts to attack Constantinople and to withdraw into their lands with bewildering speed and mobility. Hence, the name of Δρομίται ("people on the run") applied to the Rus in some Byzantine sources. The monoxyla were often accompanied by larger galleys, that served as command and control centres. Each Slavic dugout could hold from 40 to 70 warriors.

The Cossacks of the Zaporozhian Host were also renowned for their artful use of dugouts, which issued from the Dnieper to raid the shores of the Black Sea in the 16th and 17th centuries. Using small, shallow-draft, and highly maneuverable galleys known as chaiky, they moved swiftly across the Black Sea. According to the Cossacks' own records, these vessels, carrying a 50 to 70 man crew, could reach the coast of Anatolia from the mouth of the Dnieper River in forty hours.

More than 40 pre-historic log-boats have been found in the Czech Republic. The latest discovery was in 1999 of a 10 m long log-boat in Mohelnice (Šumperk District). It was cut out of a single oak log and have a width of 1.05 m. The log-boat have been dated to around 1.000 BC and is kept at the 'Mohelnice Muzeum' (Museum of National History). Geographically, Czech logboat sites and remains are clustered along the Elbe and Morava Rivers. [10]

Poland is known for the socalled Lewin-type log-boats, found a Lewin Brzeski, Koźle and Roszowicki Las accordingly. These boats, are characterized by square or trapezoidal cross-section, rectangular hull-ends and low height of the sides in relation to vessel length. In addition, nearly all the Lewin-type boats have a single hole in the bow and two at the stern. The low height is a result of the parent log being split lengthwise in half, in order to obtain two identical timbers from a single trunk. The advantage lies in the resulting identical twin hulls, which are then joined to form a double-hulled raft. The paired hulls were joined by transverse poles, which did not go through the holes in the platform ends but were fastened to the top walls or in special grooves at the hull ends. These vessels were typically 7–12 m in length, and the largest of them could carry up to 1.5 tons of cargo because of the special design. The Lewin type logboats are usually associated with the Przeworsk culture in the early centuries AD. [11] [12]

In Northern Europe, the tradition of making dugout canoes survived into the 20th and 21st centuries only in Estonia, where seasonal floods in Soomaa, a 390 km² wilderness area, make conventional means of transportation impossible. In recent decades a new surge of interest in making dugouts (Estonian haabjas) has revitalized the ancient tradition.[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dugout_(boat)

19th century dugout boat from Serbia



Dugout boat, Serbia, undetermined age




Figure 13. Cˇelákovice vessel transverse ridge. (JasonRogers)



corrib boat




http://www.academia.edu/1365226/Logboats_from_Bohemia_and_Moravia_Czech_Republic

Have a look at these:

http://www.academia.edu/2323028/Ossowski_W._2009_The_Origins_of_Flat_-Bottomed_River_Craft_on_the_Odra_and_Vistula_catchments_In_R._Bockius_Ed._Between_the_Seas._Transfer_and_Exchange_in_Nautical_Technology._Procceedings_of_the_11_ISBSA_RGZM_-_Tagungen_3_pp._177-188_Mainz

A chaika (Ukrainian: чайка, Serbian: Шајка / Šajka, pl. Шајкe / Šajke) was a wooden boat with a mast and sail, a type of galley, used in early modern warfare by the:

Zaporozhian Cossacks in the 16th–17th centuries in Ukraine on the Dnipro River and the Black Sea.
Serbs in the 16th-19th centuries on the Danube, known as Šajkaši, under Kingdom of Hungary, Austrian Empire and Habsburgs.

Chaikas were between 18 to 20 metres in length, 3 to 3.5 metres in width, and 3.5 to 4 metres in depth. The bottom of a chaika was carved out of a single tree trunk, with sides built out of wooden planks. To protect the boat from enemy guns or from sinking, reed bales were tied to the gunwales of the boat.

Chaikas also had two helms, so that the boat never needed turning around in order to switch direction. One such boat could carry around 50 to 60 men and up to 6 falconets (small cannon).

A similar, but larger boat used by the Zaporozhian Cossacks for both transport and warfare was called a baidak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaika_(boat)

cfuserkildare

As interesting as the facts regarding Slavic Logboats,

I think this post is primarily about the 12 Logboats found on the bottom of Lough Corrib that date back possibly 4500 years.

robp

Its too bad logboat in the RoI are not that well studied. There is an excellent survey of northern Irish logboats.

_Puma_

Interesting to see a design used from the 4500 years ago used right up to the 20th Century.

It said that the 4500 year old boat could have been made from a single piece of Oak up to 50ft high. I haven't seen any details about the other 11 logboats, especially the ones, from the Viking era, but I would imagine that there would have been more of an abundance of Oaks over 50 ft 4500 years ago and a lot less in the viking era leading to a lot of their logboats being smaller.

dublinviking

I posted these to show that the same design survived in Slavic lands til 50 years ago. And for people who are wandering how were the boats made and used, like in the report link posted by puma, the links i posted can help understanding how.

You don't have to go to amazon to find how.

The same technology was once used in Ireland, and probably all over Eurasia...You can also see examples found in the Baltic. The same design. Even older than Irish boats.

robp

Its easy to see a dugout as just a dug out but there is many different styles, many different purposes of the vessel and many different manufacturing techniques, probably even in Ireland. Analogies from other countries are helpful but they are not everything.

slowburner

cfuserkildare wrote: »

As interesting as the facts regarding Slavic Logboats,

I think this post is primarily about the 12 Logboats found on the bottom of Lough Corrib that date back possibly 4500 years.

Indeed it is.

dublinviking

i give up guys. you obviously know everything already...

anglingcharts

Each one of the logboats is entirely different, the Annaghkeen Boat being the oldest that has so far been carbon dated. The thinking that the quality of timber has a bearing on the size and age of the boat appears to be absolutely correct. The vessel that the iron spears were found in was of a very much lower quality oak than the Annaghkeen boat, and would have been 1000 years younger. It seems likely that in the space of a thousand years what was an Oak jungle, with trees struggling for light, became sparse woodland, enabling the trees to spread out and become more like the Oaks we know today.
The boat that the Viking axes were found in is of a type and quality unseen before in this country, and was most probably an attack boat or raiding boat. The axes were stowed in a partitioned section of the bow, to be grabbed as the raiders piled out over the bow as the boat beached.
A lot more information will be made available this year, and it would be wonderful to be able to exhibit any of these vessels, my favourites being The Annaghkeen Boat, and the "Axe Boat" (Now known as the Carrowmoreknock Boat). All we need is a little money to finance it.

cfuserkildare

dublinviking wrote: »

i give up guys. you obviously know everything already...

No mate,

The issue is that you take over other peoples posts, if you post a link people will look at it, but when you inundate somebody elses thread, then people get annoyed.

_Puma_

Fantastic work anglingcharts, I have been aware of the your work mapping the Lake for while now so these discoveries must really be exciting! Are you hopeful that there are more Log boats to be found yet?

I wasn't actually aware of the trouble you had with your "Collaboration" and reading up on it on your site is really disappointing to say the least. Any word on when the Chartbook might be published? I was meaning to get a copy of your chart to update our old admiralty one so will be putting in an order!

Would be great to see these artefacts on display in the Galway Museum, be sure to keep us up to date on how to help!

robp

anglingcharts wrote: »

The boat that the Viking axes were found in is of a type and quality unseen before in this country, and was most probably an attack boat or raiding boat. The axes were stowed in a partitioned section of the bow, to be grabbed as the raiders piled out over the bow as the boat beached.

That is very interesting. What in particular is distinct about this boat's design?

anglingcharts

robp wrote: »

That is very interesting. What in particular is distinct about this boat's design?

Aside from the forward weapons stowage, the boat is so remarkably intact that it was initially mistaken for a modern vessel by the divers conducting the initial assessment. It is completely intact, it has thole pin fittings in the gunwhales, for either pins or rowlocks (or possibly leather straps), it has complete thwarts, footrests and seat aft, and beautifully constructed jointing.
It was constructed as an important vessel, not something to be abandoned.

Fries-With-That

dublinviking wrote: »

i give up guys. you obviously know everything already...

On the contrary, my knowledge is limited to what I pick up on threads and posts on here.

I imagine I am like many other boards readers we dip in and dip out and if something interests us, we earmark it for further reading.

The problem I have with your posts is your're trying to do my further research for me by pointing me in a direction which you clearly have an immense knowledge and personal interest.

If you wish to instruct people the best way is to point them in a direction, but try not to do their thinking for them.

Aiel

That was a very interesting Find in Lough Corrib but something has been bugging me about it. Why are some of these artifacts being displayed in the National Museum in Dublin and not in the Galway City Museum? It seems a bit unfair that Dublin should get the tourist benefit for this find even though it wasn't found in Dublin. I know the Galway museum isn't big but with a display like that to show and also the if the Terryland Castle bodies that were found last year but are being shown in Dublin were displayed in Galway it would also add to the appeal of that museum.

Bonedigger

Aiel wrote: »

That was a very interesting Find in Lough Corrib but something has been bugging me about it. Why are some of these artifacts being displayed in the National Museum in Dublin and not in the Galway City Museum? It seems a bit unfair that Dublin should get the tourist benefit for this find even though it wasn't found in Dublin. I know the Galway museum isn't big but with a display like that to show and also the if the Terryland Castle bodies that were found last year but are being shown in Dublin were displayed in Galway it would also add to the appeal of that museum.

It's 1000 years since the 'Battle of Clontarf',and the National Museum have a special exhibition for this event.One of the logboats found(dating to circa 1000 A.D.) contained weapons which were believed to belong to a Viking raiding party.I'm sure it was felt appropriate to display these weapons at the NMI to show people what type of weaponry the Vikings were using around the time of the 'Battle of Clontarf' in 1014.I do share your frustration though,that there are not more County museums where locally found artefacts can be put on display.

slowburner

And of course the primary conservation resources are based in Dublin.

robp

Aiel wrote: »

That was a very interesting Find in Lough Corrib but something has been bugging me about it. Why are some of these artifacts being displayed in the National Museum in Dublin and not in the Galway City Museum? It seems a bit unfair that Dublin should get the tourist benefit for this find even though it wasn't found in Dublin. I know the Galway museum isn't big but with a display like that to show and also the if the Terryland Castle bodies that were found last year but are being shown in Dublin were displayed in Galway it would also add to the appeal of that museum.

Storing stuff in Dublin is a very efficient safe system and from my understanding they are very willing to loan to regional museums for long periods of display.

Bonedigger

robp wrote: »

Storing stuff in Dublin is a very efficient safe system and from my understanding they are very willing to loan to regional museums for long periods of display.

Absolutely,but there are far too few regional museums.

anglingcharts

I've put a couple of the sidescan images of the recent finds on my Facebook page. The Carrowmoreknock boat is particularly interesting as it is a very good exercise in geophysics.
The boat itself was 95% buried, but I was able to pull a return from under the silt. The axes can be clearly seen in their forward stowage compartment. I'm not a prolific poster, so dont have linking ability yet, but if you have a look for "loughcorrib.charts" on Facebook I'm sure you'll find it.
I've also put the imagery on my website in the sidescan section.

AnglingCharts

slowburner

The images are well worth a look. Thanks to anglingcharts!

This is the Carrowmoreknock Boat (just to the right of centre running down the screen). The boat was completely buried when this image was taken, apart from one small section of gunwhale. The Viking Battleaxes can be seen as the bright spot in the bow. They were at least 18 inches under the silt.


Bream browsing on Zebra Mussels on Bronze Age boat.

Here you can see one of the recently announced boats with a shoal of Bream in attendance.
When I filmed this boat with the dropcamera video it appeared that the fish had actually been digging into the silt to get at the zebra mussels on the wood. The mussels were scattered all around the wreck.
Here they are - caught red-handed. The boat is 2/3 buried in the silt, although the Bream are doing their best to dig it out.
Lough Corrib - The Viking Battleaxes and the boat they came in. - sidescan

davycc

robp wrote: »

Storing stuff in Dublin is a very efficient safe system and from my understanding they are very willing to loan to regional museums for long periods of display.

Id have to disagree strongly about it being an "very efficient safe system",:rolleyes:

A copy & paste from the Examiner following the 2008 report. I have read the full report PDF myself and it makes for grim uninspiring reading.

873,700 out of 905,000 national artifacts suitable to be exhibited are kept in incompetently managed storage in Dublin, many decaying over time as a result of this negligence.

Meanwhile museums and galleries in Cork at UCC, School of Art, Fitzgerald Park etc etc remain boring, deprived of content, showing mainly the same stuff, year in, year out.

FOUR million priceless artifacts in the care of the National Museum are at risk because of shoddy storage facilities, poor management and scant record keeping, a damning report has warned.

The report of Comptroller and Auditor General John Purcell called for wholesale reform in how the National Museum of Ireland manages its collection. He looked at how the museum keeps its stock of four million items — which includes the Ardagh Chalice and Tara Brooch — and the structure of its four museums and four storage facilities. He found significant shortcomings, including:

The museum has no policy for managing collections. It buys objects without assessing how much it will cost to care for them.

It keeps objects with potentially no historical value and its policy lends itself to the expansion of a collection it may not be able to afford to keep.

Of 17 buildings used for storage, the report described 10 as poor enough to put artifacts at high level of risk.

Just 30% of objects which could be electronically recorded are catalogued. The museum does not carry out an inventory of its stock to check items are still in its possession.

In attempts to locate a random sample of items, supposed to be held by the museum, 19% of objects could not be found.

The museum only met nine out of 24 best practice criteria in management set down by the Heritage Council and a group set up to develop a long-term strategy for the museum has not met since September 2006 — shortly after it was established.

873,700 out of 905,000 objects suitable to be exhibited were not displayed.

But, because 85% of its resources are spent on presenting objects for display, the vast majority of its collection remains untouched.

Yesterday’s report was the third in 20 years to highlight the damage being done from poor storage facilities.

“On-site inspections [of storage facilities] revealed a great disparity in the quality of the different stores. Problems encountered were overcrowding, dirt, dampness and leaks,” it said.

The Department of Arts Sports and Tourism has proposed a €30 million central storage facility. Mr Purcell’s report revealed the museum is at odds with this and wants the development of smaller units.

Director of the museum Pat Wallace welcomed the report and said “huge changes were under way”.

---

robp

davycc wrote: »

Id have to disagree strongly about it being an "very efficient safe system",:rolleyes:

A copy & paste from the Examiner following the 2008 report. I have read the full report PDF myself and it makes for grim uninspiring reading.

873,700 out of 905,000 national artifacts suitable to be exhibited are kept in incompetently managed storage in Dublin, many decaying over time as a result of this negligence.

Meanwhile museums and galleries in Cork at UCC, School of Art, Fitzgerald Park etc etc remain boring, deprived of content, showing mainly the same stuff, year in, year out.

FOUR million priceless artifacts in the care of the National Museum are at risk because of shoddy storage facilities, poor management and scant record keeping, a damning report has warned.

The report of Comptroller and Auditor General John Purcell called for wholesale reform in how the National Museum of Ireland manages its collection. He looked at how the museum keeps its stock of four million items — which includes the Ardagh Chalice and Tara Brooch — and the structure of its four museums and four storage facilities. He found significant shortcomings, including:

....

Yesterday’s report was the third in 20 years to highlight the damage being done from poor storage facilities.

“On-site inspections [of storage facilities] revealed a great disparity in the quality of the different stores. Problems encountered were overcrowding, dirt, dampness and leaks,” it said.

The Department of Arts Sports and Tourism has proposed a €30 million central storage facility. Mr Purcell’s report revealed the museum is at odds with this and wants the development of smaller units.

Director of the museum Pat Wallace welcomed the report and said “huge changes were under way”.

---

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. As bad as the NMI may be, who says regional museums are any better?

There is no doubt that the national museum has been historically underfunded. I think part of the problem is people think its just a national exhibition. Those in power don't understand its crucial role for curation and research.

Another thing that has to be pointed the museum has made many improvements since that report. For example the brand new modern facility in Swords must have helped the situation a lot.

slowburner

I fail to see the value of a newspaper report from eight years ago.
There is no question that the NMI was under-resourced then, and is probably even more so now.
It is not as if the staff of the museum wantonly and maliciously set out to ensure that objects are stored in poor circumstances, inaccessible and hidden away. The museum is duty bound to accept all archaeological material found during excavation and they have been doing so for 200 years - that's a whole heap of material - close to 4 million objects and rising! They are bound by law to store material and that is the primary reason why objects are slow to show up in regional museums. Furthermore, accreditation criteria are particularly strict for decentralised museums and the funds necessary to fulfill those requirements (storage conditions, archiving, conservation methodologies etc.) can be prohibitively expensive - especially in these austere times.

The most up to date report recognises the knowledge and expertise of the museum's curatorial staff and indeed anyone who has had reasons to research collections will attest to that. Equally, anyone who has tried to pick their way through the antiquated indexing systems will know that it is seriously in need of an overhaul.

The good news is that it seems that the museum's shortcomings are about to be mitigated somewhat as funding will become available through a shared €21 million fund for digitisation and outreach and €30 million towards a shared off-site storage facility.

anglingcharts

Back to the subject in hand......

A report in the UK Times, which was derived from a large report shortly to be published in "Current Archaeology" has further details, and some possibilities for the demise of the vessel. The possibility that this is one of the best preserved logboats ever to have been found in the British Isles would raise hopes that this vessel may be lifted and conserved. All that's needed is a wealthy benefactor, as the DAHG is pitifully short of funds for such endeavours.


"A bungled attempt by a nobleman to deliver gifts across a lake has led to the discovery — 1,000 years later — of one of the best preserved boats of its kind in the British Isles.
The exact cause of the 11th-century accident is unclear, but the sinking of the six-metre (20ft) log-boat, right, and its cargo into the fine silt of Loch Corrib in Co Galway has given new insights into medieval life.
Not only does the presence of a double-handed battle axe show how the Irish adopted some of the methods of Viking invaders, but the length of the wreck is part of a pattern that suggests that boats grew smaller over time as craftsmen ran out of tall trees.
Archaeologists have identified pivots for oars for a four-man crew to ferry a fifth person across the lake. The purpose of the journey is suggested by a red sandstone slab and a rock rich in fossils, which may have been diplomatic gifts for one of the monasteries dotted around the lake.
The items never reached their destination, however, and may even have caused the accident. The slab was found directly over a split in the hull that caused the boat to founder 500 metres from shore. If the crew were able to swim to safety, they were unable to return to salvage the wreck.
Karl Brady, of Ireland’s Underwater Archaeology Unit, whose team uncovered the wreck, said it was “among the best preserved log-boats ever found in Britain and Ireland”.
“It was designed for travelling around the lake at speed,” he told Current Archaeology magazine , which features a full report. “It’s just beautifully crafted and probably made for a high-status individual.”
He said that the boat’s owners had paid attention to the aesthetics of the boat, which has more intricate repairs than older wrecks found in the area. “Clearly people were proud of how the boat looked, and wanted it to remain beautiful.”
Mr Brady’s team, which found a dozen wrecks in a recent sonar survey, found that log-boats appear to have grown smaller the later they were made. The earliest, from 2500 BC, is 12 metres long — double the length of the 11th-century wreck.
“We wonder if this is because the large oak forests that dominated much of Ireland throughout antiquity were gradually depleted, and the older, taller trees ran out. If later boat-builders simply did not have access to these longer timbers, it could explain why boats gradually got shorter.”

AnglingCharts

slowburner

anglingcharts wrote: »

“We wonder if this is because the large oak forests that dominated much of Ireland throughout antiquity were gradually depleted, and the older, taller trees ran out. If later boat-builders simply did not have access to these longer timbers, it could explain why boats gradually got shorter.”

Seems to be a fair conclusion. Larger trees can be tackled as the technology develops and the largest trees will be the obvious first choice.
Substantial trees were required to make dugouts.
I had an interesting conversation about the dimensions required for oak dugouts recently.
It's a purely informal observation, but I believe that the boat builders knew that inclusion of the pith in the fabric of the dugout would inevitably lead to problems with splitting - not a desirable effect in a boat!
The accepted practice with primary timber conversion is to saw the log into two halves - through the pith where the tree is straight and true. This process can be achieved by splitting with hammer and wedges. Some woodworkers (bodgers) still prefer to convert the log in this way, because the split follows natural patterns of strength and weakness ingrained in the natural structure of the tree. Cleaving the log eliminates the troublesome pith but of course means that only 50% of the log is available.
Then a minimum of 10% of the trunk diameter is non-durable sapwood which must be discarded.
So a 1m diameter trunk for example, would only yield a usable section of about 40cm. Allow a further reduction for error/shaping and a log of 1m would clearly be too small.
All in all, trees with a pretty substantial girth were needed. Possibly 70% larger than the finished diameter of the dugout.

If there is any truth in the above, we can estimate the unconverted log diameter of the Lurgan dugout to have been no less than 2m.
It would be a tall order to find an oak of those dimensions today.

anglingcharts

I've put a new video of the Carrowmoreknock boat on my bookface page (loughcorrib.charts) - maybe someone can link to it.

The Annaghkeen boat is also in a remarkable state of preservation. This boat is actually rather better than the Lurgan boat in its state of preservation, being intact from bow to stern. Inspection of the Lurgan boat in the National Museum reveals a lot of plaster reconstruction, with one end seemingly having been almost completely rebuilt (the far end in the photo does not look intact).

In most cases we have found that the pith wood only remains at the bow and stern where it remains of necessity. The preservation under the silt is such that the colour difference is still very obvious. They certainly knew their stuff, and the sunken lakeboats of the modern era that I've found are in nothing like the same state of preservation.

anglingcharts

anglingcharts

There is a special feature (and the cover photo) on the Corrib boats in this months "Current Archaeology".

anglingcharts

slowburner

anglingcharts wrote: »

I've put a new video of the Carrowmoreknock boat on my bookface page (loughcorrib.charts)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=1439743849611340&set=vb.100007272151036&type=2&theater