Club policy on fighting outside

patjunfa

Hi all

I've been planning on doing a page of club ethos and rules for a while. In part to have something to have the kids know its not not cool for them to be getting into fights outside and something that their parents can use as a sanction for such stuff. Perhaps "try to avoid any fighting outside class or any behaviour that brings the club into disrepute..any reports of unjustified fighting will result in suspension or expulsion".
Trouble is I'm not sure what stance to take on fighting outside...certainly people have a right to defend themselves. At times to take the preemptive strike. But need t be able to justify it after that it was the best thing to do. After talking with a teenager recently I could really see the different rules of his society. If someone did something ****ty to him he'd be expected to box the guy or something otherwise he'd get labeled a pussy...havin an assertive straight talk with the other guy as would be the thing to do in the adult world would only be met with laughs...nobody's listening..get on with it and hit him...I can understand that perspective that those
are kinda the rules of some teenage cultures. While you don't want to be a slave to those rules or what you think others expect you to do, it's also hard to ignore such rules...
How does this relate to no fighting outside of class?

Thanks for any replys..

cletus

patjunfa wrote: »

Hi all

I've been planning on doing a page of club ethos and rules for a while. In part to have something to have the kids know its not not cool for them to be getting into fights outside and something that their parents can use as a sanction for such stuff. Perhaps "try to avoid any fighting outside class or any behaviour that brings the club into disrepute..any reports of unjustified fighting will result in suspension or expulsion".
Trouble is I'm not sure what stance to take on fighting outside...certainly people have a right to defend themselves. At times to take the preemptive strike. But need t be able to justify it after that it was the best thing to do. After talking with a teenager recently I could really see the different rules of his society. If someone did something ****ty to him he'd be expected to box the guy or something otherwise he'd get labeled a pussy...havin an assertive straight talk with the other guy as would be the thing to do in the adult world would only be met with laughs...nobody's listening..get on with it and hit him...I can understand that perspective that those
are kinda the rules of some teenage cultures. While you don't want to be a slave to those rules or what you think others expect you to do, it's also hard to ignore such rules...
How does this relate to no fighting outside of class?

Thanks for any replys..

I would be very wary of wording anything that implies that you condone pre-emptive striking outside the club. Personally, I would not put anything regarding fighting outside the club at all on your website etc. and deal with each issue on an individual basis

Do you have a lot of issues re. students fighting outside of training

patjunfa

I certainly wouldn't have anything written about preemptive strikes. Anything I'd write as a club ethos would be along the lines of "fighting outside the club is not condoned". However I'm just trying to reconcile this with the more realistic complexity of the issue.teenagers Will have to fight at times most likely...last time I had a street fight was perhaps 12 years ago. I took a preemptive strike. Othe guy had just decked my mate and was coming at me. Preemptive was neutralising the situation...tho its potentially dicey to advise anyone on this

Fights outside haven't been an issue thankfully. One kids parents didnt let him come one week cause he had hit his brother.which I thought was a good sanction..

I'm just thinking of making a formal club policy on this, that highlights the need for respect, self development and awareness, but seeing if can have a nod to reality, or even the need to defend oneself at times... Delicate thing to put into words..

MagicIRL

As said above; You're getting in to all sorts of legality issues if you are seen to be condoning premptive striking or even fighting on the streets.

I would word you statement similar to the following, but I am not a legal advisor, only a simple internet forum user.

While <Club name> does not condone violence of any kind, <Club name> recongizes that events can and do arise outside of training where self defence may be required. As such, any and all cases of altercations involving students of <club name> will be dealt with on a case by case scenario. <Club name> would like to remind any and all students that the first option in any scenario is to run, and that any proactive or reactive self defence technique or principal may bring severe consequences for both the aggressor and the defender. Your life is worth more than your wallet and pride.

Doug Cartel

patjunfa wrote: »

While you don't want to be a slave to those rules or what you think others expect you to do, it's also hard to ignore such rules...

Honestly if you're not even willing to go as far as telling kids not to fight people over something minor like losing face, what 's the point in putting any rules in place?

If you don't feel strongly about the subject, then just don't bother with it.

patjunfa

It is actually something I feel strongly on, that increased confidence, power. self awareness and fulfilment through the pursuit of excellence and all the friendships built in club should help one develop the skill of avoiding conflict. That's somethin I've always put across but chatin with a teenager(not in club) recently I could understand his different perspective. I say that what someone else says or thinks of me, say more about them than me, I'm not going to take it personally. However I could unstand that as a teenager, depending on the situation, loosing face IS a big thing...I don't think it's black and white and we could come up with different scenarios to look at where is violence condonable except for circumstances of threats to safety..
I think as suggested I could say situations will be dealt with on a case by case basis...imply a that I'm open to reason and can tease stuf out in discussion..

Doug Cartel

patjunfa wrote: »

However I could unstand that as a teenager, depending on the situation, loosing face IS a big thing...I don't think it's black and white and we could come up with different scenarios to look at where is violence condonable except for circumstances of threats to safety..

If you think it's OK to throw a lad a few slaps because he called you names or whatever, then put that in your rules.

If you think instead there has to be a threat to your own safety first before you hit someone, then put that in your rules.

Your problem right now is that you don't sound like you feel very strongly either way. Take some time, make your mind up about it and then you'll have an easier time drafting some rules.

smacl

I certainly wouldn't put anything in writing relating to fighting outside of the club for whatever reason, regardless of whether or not you would condone it yourself. Rory Miller's Facing Violence is worth a read in this regard, notably the opening chapter on legal and ethical considerations, albeit that it relates to American law. Bottom line, which I understand is similar here, is that where you have any reasonable opportunity to avoid violence, you can be held liable for injury caused regardless of who was at fault.

Doug Cartel

Forgot to say the important bit in my last post.

You are not drafting a set of laws which must be followed by everyone in the country, and which must be fair and balanced, and which will be argued in detail in public court.

You are writing a bunch of rules for your private club. They only have to be followed by people who want to be in your club. The rules don't have to be fair - if people don't like them they are welcome to leave. (Though make the rules too restrictive and pretty soon you'll have no members.) These rules have to be simple enough for small kids to understand.

Don't make a bunch of hard fast rules. Decide on what your basic ideals are. Make those your rules. Do not list the exceptional circumstances where these rules may be broken, but recognise yourself that there are often times when enforcing the rules strictly is not in anyone's best interests.

Stillweak

Just write what you believe to be true.
''Dont ever fight outside of the club. Its not cool. Only fight when a group peer pressures you into doing so. You dont want people thinking youre a pussy''

patjunfa

Decide on what your basic ideals are. Make those your rules. Do not list the exceptional circumstances where these rules may be broken
That makes sense thank

Rory millers book looks v interesting..

I'm getting tired of needing to defend the point that I don't condone fighting outside a club because of peer pressure. I'd never do it and don't think any of my students would. Our club doesn't go in for macho bull****

A teenager in another environment just made me think and question...i could see how in his society its maybe unrealistic to expect he will always walk away or have any sucess with assertive talking...for instance if i was a young travellor lad in a certain environment, i could see there are times where maybe standing up for yourself means fighting. obviously too many take this to extreme but im just interested if this was the scenerio is violence more acceptable? ive taught stuff on assertive communication and believe you can avoid or deescalate most situations by practice and awarness...but perhaps this is more difficult in different societys...so I put it here as an open question...not a stance to have to defend..

CIARAN_BOYLE

I think the easiest rule to have is that your members don't get into legal trouble.

You can always make an exception if you feel it is justified but its rare enough that someone would get into legal trouble for violent assault and be justified

Plastikman_eire

If a student feels that a physical assault is an appropriate response to verbal abuse, they need to be kicked out of the club. No one needs a person like that learning to become more dangerous.

brozman

patjunfa wrote:

I'm getting tired of needing to defend the point that I don't condone fighting outside a club because of peer pressure.

patjunfa wrote:

i could see how in his society its maybe unrealistic to expect he will always walk away or have any sucess with assertive talking

This seems like a contradiction. Either verbal abuse is a valid reason for getting into a fight, or it isn't. There isn't really an "in-between". It's not like you can say "it's okay if saving face was really important".

patjunfa wrote:

im just interested if this was the scenerio is violence more acceptable?

Why should this matter? Assault is assault. Don't make excuses - it's easy to avoid a crowd that will peer-pressure you into fighting. It's also certainly possible to walk away from a fight knowing you will lose face, when you understand the consequences of violence.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsnDzazyn00

It's kind of embarrassing that someone in your position is trying to make excuses for someone to proceed with a fight based on a verbal altercation. It doesn't work, whether you're the meanest "travellor (sic)" around or the common Joe. Fighting someone for reputation etc. is not justifiable.

Niall Keane

Club policy on fighting outside

wear proper attire.