Marathon in late May OR train through for DCM14

Running Fool

Hi guys,

Long-time lurker, occasional poster.

Ran 5 marathons with a PB in Dublin last year of 3.36 (was on for 3.30 up until mile 20 and broke down).
I did Great Ireland Run in 44mins 23secs on Sunday.

I’ve been looking at Newry marathon at end of May and have been on P&D up to 55 week plan.

All going well, pretty happy with it but really I am confused and finding it hard to see what pace I can aim for in the marathon and really if it’s much different to what I was doing for DCM2013. I feel that maybe I see myself breaking 3.30 is all.

While that’s good and a PB it still feels close enough to DCM2013 and I really want a more significant improvement in the marathon.
I felt good running Great Ireland Run but running a race again made me think of the marathon and how it really is (as opposed to what it is in my head) and maybe it’s better to be patient and play the long game and push hard for DCM2014?
End of last Aug was the first time I ever did any intervals or tempo runs and while it helped me it was a bit late for DCM. This year it’s definitely helped but if I keep at it longer, and don’t race a marathon till Oct I think there may be more benefits.


So should I -

• Push through and run Newry at xx:xx pace and then spend the summer training for DCM14.

• Scale back, refocus on HM training and run a strong half marathon in Newry, continue through May (don’t lose it for recovery) and into June on shorter distance training to really get my speed finely tuned and then in late June/early July start to train for Dublin with the speed work added and try and really crack the best I can?

Thanks

MacSwifty

I ran Waterford last June 29th 3.33 and took a week off and then trained for DCM did 3.29 and found it much easier so I would go for it but take a little time off after Newry

I plan to do the same this year!!

Running Fool

MacSwifty wrote: »

I ran Waterford last June 29th 3.33 and took a week off and then trained for DCM did 3.29 and found it much easier so I would go for it but take a little time off after Newry

I plan to do the same this year!!

Thanks, but I guess I feel I want a bigger improvement, 3.15 or more so I suppose I wonder what would be the best in the long term for DCM14.

ThePiedPiper

There's probably not much harm in doing the May marathon but if you think you're going to lose a month of training for what your goal race really is, then what is the upside? I'm doing a June marathon as a stepping stone to the autumn goal race, but it fits into my normal training schedule so there's benefit

Running Fool

RunForestRun wrote: »

There's probably not much harm in doing the May marathon but if you think you're going to lose a month of training for what your goal race really is, then what is the upside? I'm doing a June marathon as a stepping stone to the autumn goal race, but it fits into my normal training schedule so there's benefit

I am up to 17miles with 12 at MP next week and have a few 16milers done, some with MP miles in them.

I guess it's that I can do both marathons, but I'd get the best time from training hard now on shorter distances, move up in the summer and do just 1 in autumn.

Thanks

Running Fool

Also - one last quick Q for anybody that might know. What's the chances of improving my HM time in the 6 weeks I have to the HM?

Thanks

yaboya1

Running Fool wrote: »

Also - one last quick Q for anybody that might know. What's the chances of improving my HM time in the 6 weeks I have to the HM?

Thanks

Very possible I would say. I ran the Clontarf HM on 23rd November, and improved on that by 13 minutes 6-7 weeks later in the middle of marathon training.

ecoli

Judging by your post I think you have already made up your mind with regards to knocking Newry on the head. Some people can find that small improvements in the marathon don't justify the effort and as such small improvements can be more a hindrance mentally.

I can empathize with your situation as I was in a similar situation this year with one or two set backs in the build up to Rotterdam making me question whether or not to run it or knock it on the head and aim for Dublin. I chose the latter and have not regretted it. I PB'ed in the Half and an focusing on shorter distances before the build up to Dublin.

The one thing I will say is don't see it as "scaling back" with regards training for the shorter distances. There should be very little mileage difference between training for 5k and a marathon. You will surprise yourself with what you can achieve if you manage to keep the consistency going between now and your marathon cycle in Dublin.

Also worth nothing that many here (myself included) PB off marathon training in the shorter distances so it doesn't have to change your training dramatically just shift the emphasis a little from the long run to other style sessions (but do not ignore long runs) and you will notice the difference it makes.

Running Fool

ecoli wrote: »

Judging by your post I think you have already made up your mind with regards to knocking Newry on the head. Some people can find that small improvements in the marathon don't justify the effort and as such small improvements can be more a hindrance mentally.

I can empathize with your situation as I was in a similar situation this year with one or two set backs in the build up to Rotterdam making me question whether or not to run it or knock it on the head and aim for Dublin. I chose the latter and have not regretted it. I PB'ed in the Half and an focusing on shorter distances before the build up to Dublin.

The one thing I will say is don't see it as "scaling back" with regards training for the shorter distances. There should be very little mileage difference between training for 5k and a marathon. You will surprise yourself with what you can achieve if you manage to keep the consistency going between now and your marathon cycle in Dublin.

Also worth nothing that many here (myself included) PB off marathon training in the shorter distances so it doesn't have to change your training dramatically just shift the emphasis a little from the long run to other style sessions (but do not ignore long runs) and you will notice the difference it makes.

Thanks. As mentioned I'd been following the P&D up to 55 plan. Any recommendation on how I should adjust it between now and end of May - for instance attached is what the next 6 weeks would have been for the full marathon - or there's an advanced Hal Higdon HM plan here that I could jump into the last 6 wks of - http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51133/Half-Marathon-Advanced-Training-Program

Thanks again

ecoli

Running Fool wrote: »

Thanks. As mentioned I'd been following the P&D up to 55 plan. Any recommendation on how I should adjust it between now and end of May - for instance attached is what the next 6 weeks would have been for the full marathon - or there's an advanced Hal Higdon HM plan here that I could jump into the last 6 wks of - http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51133/Half-Marathon-Advanced-Training-Program

Thanks again

To be honest I would stick with the plan you have been working off and I wouldn't change too much if you have come through the plan unscathed so far.

Perhaps decreased the long runs to 16-18 miles instead of the 20 milers and drop one of the tune up races and perhaps drop in a progression run (1 mile easy, 3 miles MP, 2 mile HMP and 1 mile @ 10k pace 1 mile easy) or a Long tempo (45 min - 1 hr @ MP)

Going off a 55 mpw plan there us still great scope for aerobic development and as such the marathon training is going to be able to yield significant improvements

yaboya1

Running Fool wrote: »

Thanks. As mentioned I'd been following the P&D up to 55 plan. Any recommendation on how I should adjust it between now and end of May - for instance attached is what the next 6 weeks would have been for the full marathon - or there's an advanced Hal Higdon HM plan here that I could jump into the last 6 wks of - http://www.halhigdon.com/training/51133/Half-Marathon-Advanced-Training-Program

Thanks again

I followed the Up to 55 P&D 12 week plan from the beginning of December and ran my HM time at the end of January if that's any help?

Running Fool

yaboya1 wrote: »

I followed the Up to 55 P&D 12 week plan from the beginning of December and ran my HM time at the end of January if that's any help?

Sorry, just so I understand. You just worked through the normal marathon training and the HM PB came during that training?

yaboya1

Running Fool wrote: »

Sorry, just so I understand. You just worked through the normal marathon training and the HM PB came during that training?

Yeah, there was a recommended tune-up race of 10-15k in the plan four weeks before the marathon. It suggested a total of 9-13m including warm-up but I read it wrong and ran the HM distance. Didn't do me any harm :pac:

T runner

Running Fool wrote: »

Hi guys,

Long-time lurker, occasional poster.

Ran 5 marathons with a PB in Dublin last year of 3.36 (was on for 3.30 up until mile 20 and broke down).
I did Great Ireland Run in 44mins 23secs on Sunday.

I’ve been looking at Newry marathon at end of May and have been on P&D up to 55 week plan.

All going well, pretty happy with it but really I am confused and finding it hard to see what pace I can aim for in the marathon and really if it’s much different to what I was doing for DCM2013. I feel that maybe I see myself breaking 3.30 is all.

While that’s good and a PB it still feels close enough to DCM2013 and I really want a more significant improvement in the marathon.
I felt good running Great Ireland Run but running a race again made me think of the marathon and how it really is (as opposed to what it is in my head) and maybe it’s better to be patient and play the long game and push hard for DCM2014?
End of last Aug was the first time I ever did any intervals or tempo runs and while it helped me it was a bit late for DCM. This year it’s definitely helped but if I keep at it longer, and don’t race a marathon till Oct I think there may be more benefits.


So should I -

• Push through and run Newry at xx:xx pace and then spend the summer training for DCM14.

• Scale back, refocus on HM training and run a strong half marathon in Newry, continue through May (don’t lose it for recovery) and into June on shorter distance training to really get my speed finely tuned and then in late June/early July start to train for Dublin with the speed work added and try and really crack the best I can?

Thanks

The marathon is primarily about aerobic conditioning i.e big overall volume in a balanced aerobic schedule. You can also make gains by improving your 5k-half marathon times.

You need to assess it honestly. If you can match you're marathon training volume for the target half, then drop the May marathon. If you cant then running the May marathon could be the better training for Autumn, even with the downtime.
If you train for the May half in a balanced way on high volume, definitely go that way. To improve youre autumn marathon chances significantly, the volume needs to be high.

You need to look at upping the mileage for the Autumn attempt. Up to 55 is not enough. Have a strategy for that through you're training.

Running Fool

T runner wrote: »

The marathon is primarily about aerobic conditioning i.e big overall volume in a balanced aerobic schedule. You can also make gains by improving your 5k-half marathon times.

You need to assess it honestly. If you can match you're marathon training volume for the target half, then drop the May marathon. If you cant then running the May marathon could be the better training for Autumn, even with the downtime.
If you train for the May half in a balanced way on high volume, definitely go that way. To improve youre autumn marathon chances significantly, the volume needs to be high.

You need to look at upping the mileage for the Autumn attempt. Up to 55 is not enough. Have a strategy for that through you're training.

Cool - makes sense and thanks. One thing though is If you train for the May half in a balanced way on high volume, definitely go that way. I can put the time in for the half, but do I continue with the up to 55 programme, adjust it slightly, or is there another programme to try switch to now?

T runner

Running Fool wrote: »

Cool - makes sense and thanks. One thing though is If you train for the May half in a balanced way on high volume, definitely go that way. I can put the time in for the half, but do I continue with the up to 55 programme, adjust it slightly, or is there another programme to try switch to now?

Id suggest training using a specific half marathon schedule. It will make you faster so youre speed will be better starting out for the Autumn marathon. Id aim for up to 70 miles, for the Autumn one.

For the Half. You need more LT runs, 10k paced runs etc than a P and D marathon program allows. Youre working on improving endurance at LT. The marathon is more concerned with improving AT. (2 hour race pace)

Jack Daniels has a HM program in his new book. Im sure other posters will have other links. If you can keep the current marathon mileage for the HM program you'll do well. Don't overdo it. Keep all running controlled and relaxed.

After youre HM program youd start the P and D up to 70 mile. Youd tweak it slightly by adding a bi-weekly LT maintenance session to maintain the gains from the gains. When you reach the P and D schedules first LT session, you've bridged the gap and continue the schedule as it says on the tin.

If you've less time, your starting point on the P and D schedule would be after the LT phase there. But youd tweak the HM training by making the long run longer than suggested. Not a bad idea anyway if the ultimate goal is a marathon.

That's just the way id suggest it to get optiumum results, my opinion only, Im no coach. Mileage needs to be built slowly, so work out what volume you can manage without risking injury.

Eat well, drink plenty of water.
Be aggressive with your time target initially.

Running Fool

T runner wrote: »

Id suggest training using a specific half marathon schedule. It will make you faster so youre speed will be better starting out for the Autumn marathon. Id aim for up to 70 miles, for the Autumn one.

For the Half. You need more LT runs, 10k paced runs etc than a P and D marathon program allows. Youre working on improving endurance at LT. The marathon is more concerned with improving AT. (2 hour race pace)

Jack Daniels has a HM program in his new book. Im sure other posters will have other links. If you can keep the current marathon mileage for the HM program you'll do well. Don't overdo it. Keep all running controlled and relaxed.

After youre HM program youd start the P and D up to 70 mile. Youd tweak it slightly by adding a bi-weekly LT maintenance session to maintain the gains from the gains. When you reach the P and D schedules first LT session, you've bridged the gap and continue the schedule as it says on the tin.

If you've less time, your starting point on the P and D schedule would be after the LT phase there. But youd tweak the HM training by making the long run longer than suggested. Not a bad idea anyway if the ultimate goal is a marathon.

That's just the way id suggest it to get optiumum results, my opinion only, Im no coach. Mileage needs to be built slowly, so work out what volume you can manage without risking injury.

Eat well, drink plenty of water.
Be aggressive with your time target initially.

Thanks.

I'd actually bought the Daniels book a few weeks ago and hadn't looked at it. Had a look last night - parts are like reading a different language and I really dunno how to get a hang of how many miles per week - like how long the easy runs should be. I'm sure the detail is in there though and will look again at the weekend to try and decipher.