failing marriage

worried1000

Hi folks,

I really don't know what to about my marriage!
I have been married over 13 years and I don't really love my wife. We have 3 wonderful kids, but to be honest, most of the time she is a disaster.
She is an unhappy, grumpy person who takes her frustrations out on me and the eldest child. It is bullying manipulative behaviour at best and downright crazy at worst. There is fair degree of passive aggressive behaviour on her part too. She is overbearing, loud, self-opinionated - like someone who doesn't have a low volume button. She is always too busy for me or indeed any nice things in life. I think it is just so wrong how she treats the eldest and I can see it going the same way with the other kids.
I am a great provider and try my best as father & husband. I have my failings, like everyone, but always have done my best. I hardly drink, don't smoke or do drugs. I am a decent law abiding person who wants his kids to have a happy fulfilling childhood and great future. I work my b*lls off and have done reasonably well for us all.
My wife and I have grown apart over the years, don't sleep together and frequently row. We spend zero time together. I am the one who always has to patch things up for the sake of the kids.
She has a relatively easy life, works in the home, but even that is a struggle for her. My eldest and I do our own laundry, breakfast/lunches and cleaning up. My wife doesn't "do breakfast" and has all sorts of odd stuff going on about food, some days dinner is early, sometimes late, sometimes not at all. If she was a teenager, you would say its a eating disorder. If you ask the wrong question at the wrong time, you will get a hostile uncooperative response, most of the time. Its all about power & control with her, although she doesn't recognise it as such.
In fact she is totally oblivious to her own failings, has a low emotional intelligence and will take no positive role in the marriage.
I have tried my very best, initiated counselling many many times, but she has always caused it to stop. There is a load of other stuff going on - I think she is neurotic and has OCD tendencies. There is binge drinking too. She has few re-deeming qualities, but can put on a good-show outside of the house.
What makes it so sad is that she doesn't realise how good things are compared to a lot of families, (all of us are healthy, including wider family, no serious money worries). There is no pressure on her and I have always been supportive of her with career/study/pastimes.
So I have told her recently that we should split - the only thing holding me back is how upsetting it would be for he kids and the meltdown a separation will bring..... I guess I am the peace-maker and I fear for how much crap the kids will get. I also know that I will be the one who suffers the most as I will have to leave the family home. It just wouldn't work the other way around, I think.
But I could put that behind me if I thought the kids long-term interests were best served by a separation. However if I move, it will be a victory for nasty behaviour and I think my eldest will be forced out, (ultimately to me) which will multiply the hardship on the remaining kids and due to my job would be unworkable.
So - what I asking people for is their tuppence worth. Has anyone gone through similar? At what point did you say, "enough is enough"?
Sometimes I feel very lonely, even with the kids around me and worry will the stress of a separation crush me! Again any advice would help. I don't have family or friends near, so isolation would be a problem. Any constructive advice please?
I should finish by saying, I want my marriage to work, but can't continue like this.

Merkin

What was her reaction when you said you wanted to split up?

worried1000

Thanks for replying. She said sell the house but don't think she meant it as it was after a heated argument

You appear to have a very low opinion of her. I don't think your marriage has a chance of working if you don't even like your spouse, never mind love them. She sounds like a person in need of help, which is not intended to diminish your own problems. Maybe if she got some support and help with the litany of faults she seems to have, she'd be more likely to engage with counselling. Other than that, I wish you well whatever you decide.

worried1000

Thanks for replying. I am worn down by years of negativity and difficult behaviour, so yes my opinion of her is pretty low. But I do want to like my wife - she is great when the nice person is present, the rest of the time its very tough to like someone who is hostile and difficult.
I am not looking for nirvana either, just the basics.

The problem is that she won't go to a doctor, counsellor, friend or family to try and resolve her issues or indeed our problems as a couple. Its just head in the sand stuff. Any suggestions?

Chara1001

I'm not sure how you originally intended your post to be, but to me it reads as vitriolic where your wife absorbs 100% of the blame and you have suffered through a 13 year miserable situation for the sake of your children- one of who is suffering now also.

Taking your post at face value:
You don't like your wife, let alone love her. She is controlling, aggressive, passive aggressive, loud, selfish, manipulative with low emotional intelligence who punishes her husband and eldest child. You don't want to stay with her, and have told her so. The biggest step has been taken here op, you've told her.

Then you say you're willing to leave for the sake of the kids but your eldest will be 'forced out to you' - hang on a sec here- if what you say is true and the eldest has an abusive parent that isn't you, you would leave the child in the situation while you take yourself out of it? And then wait for the child to be forced on to you after god knows how much more abuse without you around to protect him/ her?

I think firstly you probably do need to leave, as you clearly seem to hate her. However from reading your post, the vicious way you have worded it and your presentation of yourself as the long suffering, giving and supportive husband & parent, i think personally think there is an awful lot more to it than you say here. If you and your child together are being abused by this woman, I can't believe is hasn't dawned on you that you need to take the child with you without hesitation!!

Colser

I totally agree with what Chara1001 says regarding your child.That is the biggest issue thats jumps out to me from your post.You are aware that your own child is suffering from emotional abuse similar to you yet you are an adult concidering leaving because of it and willing to leave a child to suffer on..thats very selfish imo.Who do you think is going to protect your child and what is the extent of the abuse he/she is being subjected to?

With regards to yourself I actually feel alot of sympathy for you.If what youve posted is all true(and Im sure it is)this is a very difficult and soul destroying situation to be in.Threatening to move out is useless unless you actually mean it and more importantly that your wife knows that its not an idle threat. I think leaving is the best possible solution but can be very difficult to do particularly when kids are involved.

In your position I would step back a little let her see that you will not be a doormat or tolerate any more abuse.It may take a shock to the system for her to see that you are no longer willing to put up with the situation.(Also if she needs help she may be more willing to seek it out if she sees a change in your attitude).Walk away as much as possible when she starts to kick off and try to ignore it without reacting(if possible).If she turns on her nice side when she sees this I would encourage you not to fall for it as the cycle will probably start again.You will have to maintain your stance or things will go around in circles.

I say all this as I am taking your post at face value and I do believe that you are at the end of your tether.Again I would have to repeat that i would be very worried regarding your eldest child and that would be my first concern in all of this. If you do nothing else you have to protect him/her immediately..you are an adult and at the end of the day you can walk away but your child cannot.

One question..when did your wife start behaving like this ..was it gradual or were there any signs before you married? Also never underestimate how tiring and frustrating rearing children can be especially when the other parent is away working long hours ect.

worried1000

Hi Chara1001 - I don't want to leave the home but I would leave if I thought it was the best thing to do.

If the words appear "vicious" well maybe they are the precisely the right words.
Sorry don't want to sound sanctimonious but it ain't pretty. Of course, you are right there is loads more to it as there would be any relationship in crisis,, but I would need many many pages to give a complete picture and it wouldn't alter the narrative one bit.

I don't know if "abusive" , as you call it, is the right word for her behaviour towards the eldest child. There is no physical violence involved nor threat of same. But it is oppressive at the very least and I spend a good amount of time trying to diffuse arguments between them. I also understand completely that teenagers can be trying and that my wife usually has the child's interests at heart - its just that she doesn't show or express them in any obvious way. I would say its like she is trying to make life hard for her to make her "mature".

If it was easy to work out whether me leaving would help or not, then I suppose I wouldn't be asking for help. And I think further dividing up the children, if the eldest child left too, would be very damaging to the other kids. Furthermore my job is away from home early and involves travelling so I can't be I around at key times (early in morning, when child gets home etc).

I suppose what I would like to know if anyone has been in a similar situation and managed to resolve it, especially if the other person doesn't seem willing or able

worried1000

Colser wrote: »

I totally agree with what Chara1001 says regarding your child.That is the biggest issue thats jumps out to me from your post.You are aware that your own child is suffering from emotional abuse similar to you yet you are an adult concidering leaving because of it and willing to leave a child to suffer on..thats very selfish imo.Who do you think is going to protect your child and what is the extent of the abuse he/she is being subjected to?

With regards to yourself I actually feel alot of sympathy for you.If what youve posted is all true(and Im sure it is)this is a very difficult and soul destroying situation to be in.Threatening to move out is useless unless you actually mean it and more importantly that your wife knows that its not an idle threat. I think leaving is the best possible solution but can be very difficult to do particularly when kids are involved.

In your position I would step back a little let her see that you will not be a doormat or tolerate any more abuse.It may take a shock to the system for her to see that you are no longer willing to put up with the situation.(Also if she needs help she may be more willing to seek it out if she sees a change in your attitude).Walk away as much as possible when she starts to kick off and try to ignore it without reacting(if possible).If she turns on her nice side when she sees this I would encourage you not to fall for it as the cycle will probably start again.You will have to maintain your stance or things will go around in circles.

I say all this as I am taking your post at face value and I do believe that you are at the end of your tether.Again I would have to repeat that i would be very worried regarding your eldest child and that would be my first concern in all of this. If you do nothing else you have to protect him/her immediately..you are an adult and at the end of the day you can walk away but your child cannot.

One question..when did your wife start behaving like this ..was it gradual or were there any signs before you married? Also never underestimate how tiring and frustrating rearing children can be especially when the other parent is away working long hours ect.

Thanks for your considered reply. I hope I answered some of the worries about the child first in the response to Chara1001.

I think the behaviour started when the first child was very young. There was P-N-D, which wasn't really dealt with and like you said a mothers life can be very challenging with young kids. So this destructive behaviour has been going on for over 10 years.
I am not looking for a praise for staying, but I suppose I am an optimist by nature and always believed things would get better when the kids grew up.

So my response was always try harder, turn the other cheek and yes at times react in despair. But there has been a lot of reaching out on my behalf, to in-laws, who would be very sympathetic to my point of view, aswell as counsellors, doctors, friends etc. I have tried the plenty of love option and the cold shoulder, but nothing really works.

Is it a case of short-term pain for everyone for long term gain?

strobe

It seems you both actively dislike each other, if not hate each other, and have done for many years. That's a horrendous situation for your children to be growing up in, stuck in the middle of. For their sake the two of you should separate as soon as possible.

Colser

Very difficult to say Op...You really have tried every avenue.Is it a question that really only you can answer? How much more can you take or do you really want to take anymore at all?
You seem like someone who would find it difficult to leave and that is probably the crux of the matter.could you in all honesty see yourself leaving? If not are you willing to put up with this for life?

Sorry Im posing questions and you are here looking for answers:)

I think you will have to sit down with someone that can listen and go through the realistic options(ones that you would genuinely carry through) and make a decision based on that. One the one hand you have only one life and its a shame to spend like this but on the other you married your wife and had 3 children with her so can you ever really walk away without carrying alot of the problems with you...I think not in reality.

I do know that some people can act similar to your wife when they feel resentment for whatever reason and again I stress that being at home with children can cause this.Do you think that she may feel stuck in a rut and is taking it out on her nearest and dearest( as noone else would put up with it).Would she have liked a career and maybe feeling like life is passing her by? Do you feel that you could fall back in love again if things got sorted or has it gone too far and are you just looking for ways to continue albeit with less abuse/stress?

alleystar

I don't have much advice but I just wanted to say OP, I have a relation who would be very similar to your wife. I know myself how difficult it can be to live with someone like that. To the outside world they seem to be the most well adjusted individual around and then at home it's hell. There are two sides to every story but ultimately I empathise with you and your children. It wouldn't be fair on them to leave them with her if she is so ill though. I would be especially worried about her disordered eating affecting your children too.

Chara1001

Yep op, fair point and thank you for clarifying a few things.

Ok, I don't know if this helps but my parents waited to separate when my youngest brother finished school. My brothers and I think it was a huge mistake though, our household growing up was a pressure cooker. We acted up a bit (well i did) but at the same time we walked on eggshells constantly in fear of setting our parents off- and one might be simply trying to diffuse a situation with one of us, but they'd usually end up at each others throats.
They didn't expect our reaction when they told us they were splitting up though, after the horrible day my dad moved out, life became so much happier so quickly. Not just for us but for our parents too- it was so nice to see them happy after the life had been drained out of them with tension.
In short- I don't believe there's much long term gain to staying together for the kids if you're both utterly miserable- and you clearly are.

A few things:
I don't think your household will become a better place without longer term professional help for both of you. It means that your wife will have to want to make the effort though, she will have to address some really unpleasant things about herself and you will too. Do you think she will do this?

If you move out, could you possibly arrange it that your eldest child can stay with you at the weekends? It might help to alleviate the tension at home if he/ she knows they have somewhere stress- free to go every week. Honestly, sometimes splitting up really is the best solution. My parents went from despising each other to being mates! They hang out now, they go for dinner all the time and have even traveled together. Separating was the best thing they ever did.

The best of luck to you:)

worried1000

Thanks for the replies - it is heartening to see so many well thought out views.

Re: Colser

Yes I think you have it right about her feelings about missing out on a career/life and there is jealousy or other negative stuff as part of that. I don't think she feels fulfilled in the house but a lot of that is down to herself and her lack of effort and self-development.
I don't know if I could fall in love again with her unless the stressful stuff stops and there is a commitment to change. I recognise that I have to change some things too but I ain't the one who has the biggest journey to make. If the crap stopped that would ironically make it easier for me to make a decision about leaving as I would feel that its a less volatile/hostile home that I "left behind" and that my kids would ALL feel totally at home.
Does that make sense?

Colser

It does make sense but also sounds too good to be true.Could you really see that happening?
As regards to feeling unfulfilled..Its not easy to develop workwise while rearing 3 children and also taking into account that your job doesnt sound to be a 9-5 one. Also pnd can extend beyond the baby stage.Life can be a lot more depressing/difficult when you are stuck at home rather than when you are combining a job and running the home.Work can be/often is a right pain but it does give a senee of achievement and generates more energy for the household stuff(just my opinion).
The fact that you are concidering your options now even though the situation started years ago indicates that you really need to make some definite changes.Would you concider moving out but staying in the locality so that you are still very much hands on with your children?You could still see them as much as you do but you and your wife would have space away from each other?

Is there any other reason that you are thinking of separating now? Remember far away hills arent always greener(just saying:)).

One other thing I would say is that you are most definitely not the only one living in this kind of situation and would probably be surprised at the ammount of people going through similar situations (again my opinion ).

What advise would you give to a friend that was in this situation? I often find this helps when faced with problems like this.

LegacyUser

You need to have a serious chat with you wife and say to her that you are not happy with the way things are going between you and her.
I would also tell her that you are not going to put up with her making your eldest child's life a misery.

At this stage I would say to her that you want you both to go to marriage counselling.
I would also say that I want us both to go to the doctor as I feel that you need help with your anger, ocd and with your drinking.
I am sure she won't want to do this but I would tell her that if she does not do this you will employ a housekeeper and she can move out of the family home, get a job and support herself.

If you leave the family home your daughter will end up taking the brunt of you doing this. Her mother will leave her to do all the jobs and continue to make her life a misery.
Your wife needs to know that you are no longer going to put up with her taking her misery ect out on the rest of you.

neveah

A friend of mine was in an almost identical situation to you. He was miserable for years and his marriage was gone, he and his wife did not have a good relationship. Luckily he had a good job so financially he was able to move out of home. His ex-wife was a housewife, still is and luckily they can maintain this situation for the time being, although he thinks she will have to work at some stage to contribute to the running of 2 households. It is expensive to run two households so you need to look at your financial situation and how you could cope with this as this will obviously have a major impact on your decision to move out.

My friend found a place very close to the family home so he can regularly call, the kids can call to him easily etc. He has gone out of his way to remain on cordial terms with his ex-wife, he has learned to let most of her attacks go over his head and he doesn't react to them, he has found that this attitude has resulted in a reduction of the arguments/fights, it is still not easy but things are much much better for him. He is now about 6-7 months out of the house, he has been dating and seeing a girl for the last few weeks and he's like a different guy. He said the kids are much happier with the situation and they wouldn't go back to the way things were. It's not all a bed of roses though, it's obviously a very difficult time to go through a separation. It was a lot for him to get used to, so it is a stressful and difficult time initially for everyone involved.

There are lots of people out there going through this. In my work alone there have been 5 marriage splits in the last 12 months, this is in a company with about 40-50 employees so that's a high rate of marriage breakups. My point being is that there must be other forums where you can connect to dads that are in a similar situation to yourself and get more advice? I know my friend went through a mediation process with his separation so maybe you should look into this? This process discusses how things would work if you separated and it is the basis on which a separation agreement is drawn up. I know my friend went to several sessions of these before he moved out of the house and he found that having the mediator there was very helpful as he/she is not biased so can give a rounded opinion on the situation and help discuss & difuse 'bones of contention' between you both. Mediation is not counselling as far as I am aware, you should probably find out what's involved as it is probably the next step if you want to go ahead with a separation anyway. I know there is a long waiting list to get an appointment so you should probably think about it sooner rather than later.

There is also a Separation and Divorce forum here on Boards that you may find full of useful information and people in a similar situation that can advise you further.

Cauchy

Chara1001 wrote: »

I'm not sure how you originally intended your post to be, but to me it reads as vitriolic where your wife absorbs 100% of the blame and you have suffered through a 13 year miserable situation for the sake of your children- one of who is suffering now also.

Taking your post at face value:
You don't like your wife, let alone love her. She is controlling, aggressive, passive aggressive, loud, selfish, manipulative with low emotional intelligence who punishes her husband and eldest child. You don't want to stay with her, and have told her so. The biggest step has been taken here op, you've told her.

Then you say you're willing to leave for the sake of the kids but your eldest will be 'forced out to you' - hang on a sec here- if what you say is true and the eldest has an abusive parent that isn't you, you would leave the child in the situation while you take yourself out of it? And then wait for the child to be forced on to you after god knows how much more abuse without you around to protect him/ her?

I think firstly you probably do need to leave, as you clearly seem to hate her. However from reading your post, the vicious way you have worded it and your presentation of yourself as the long suffering, giving and supportive husband & parent, i think personally think there is an awful lot more to it than you say here. If you and your child together are being abused by this woman, I can't believe is hasn't dawned on you that you need to take the child with you without hesitation!!

Why do you think there is an awful lot more to it? It's perfectly possible for a woman to not be a very nice person.

Chara1001

Yes of course it's possible and if you read my following post, you would have seen that the op clarified some major points and I responded more in line with the questions he was asking.
This post you're asking about was written before he cleared up some concerns, what jumped out at me about his op was the way he portrayed his wife and portrayed himself. But the major problem i saw was the issue I raised about him leaving the family home and leaving the eldest child alone in a situation where they are not treated well by their mother.
The op has made his position more clear, he is in an awful situation and is trying to do his best.
Op, please accept my apologies if i have caused offense.

worried1000

Thanks again for all the posts - some stuff that I need to consider.
Re "Lady 2013" its very difficult to get her to sit down & engage in a conversation. But maybe direct is the only way.

Neveah - I can see the point your making & it probably is the most likely scenario, but not necessarily the one I like. Its some comfort to think others are going thru similar but it still is not desirable. I appreciate the good advice nevertheless

jane82

Would going out early Saturday and spending all day in the pub and then scuttering home at 3 am and going straight to bed help?
She might wanna have a discussion in the morning then.
Key points : dont have the discussion until youve slept.

Flippyfloppy

jane82 wrote: »

Would going out early Saturday and spending all day in the pub and then scuttering home at 3 am and going straight to bed help?
She might wanna have a discussion in the morning then.
Key points : dont have the discussion until youve slept.

Explain how that dysfunction would help?!

jane82

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Explain how that dysfunction would help?!

Well it seems the wife is denying there is a problem. Its all handy for her. Do what she likes and have a well behaved overworked husband toeing the line.

A machine wont get oiled until it starts to squeek.

Oryx

Listening to your descriptions of your wife, she sounds like a woman who is in crisis and has been for some time. She is not in a good place and there may be many reasons for that. You say 'you aren't the one with the biggest journey to make'. Tbh, I think if you asked your wife, she would be of a different opinion. You may be working hard. You may be trying very hard, but for some reason, your wife sees a very different picture of you. Be ready to accept that some of her points about you might be valid. If you are entrenched in your picture that she is wrong and you are right, you will get nowhere.

Regardless of whether you stay or go, you both need to have counselling together. Your relationship has broken down to the point that you hate each other, and you need to reconcile enough that you can raise your children civilly and rationally together, whether living together or not. To go forward into separation as things stand may only make a bad situation worse. I dont think this is something you should attempt to solve alone. Your wife may need persuading, but perhaps if she realises that this is it, the final straw, she will concede.

worried1000

Oryx wrote: »

....................You say 'you aren't the one with the biggest journey to make'. Tbh, I think if you asked your wife, she would be of a different opinion. You may be working hard. You may be trying very hard, but for some reason, your wife sees a very different picture of you. Be ready to accept that some of her points about you might be valid. If you are entrenched in your picture that she is wrong and you are right, you will get nowhere.

Thanks for replying but I have got objective feedback from friends, family & professionals and they do feel that I am making most of the running, effort and have indeed the shortest journey to make.
I readily accept that I have to change some aspects of my life to at least allow changes to happen and I am not so arrogant to believe that all the problems are caused by my wife or other factors outside my control. But I can only tell you as I see it so that I can get any sensible advice that people have.

worried1000

Flippyfloppy wrote: »

Explain how that dysfunction would help?!

As quoted above getting hammered would be of no use whatsoever and its not my thing

LegacyUser

OP I might be stating the obvious but I wonder what approach has been tried to date.
Has it been "I am not happy, You do this XYZ, You etc etc?
or another aspect is that what is being heard from by wife?

Perhaps the talk could come from a different coalface.
You dont seem happy how can I help? and try to continue in that manner.
What do we and I need to do? How do we get back to being a team and being great together (assuming it was in the past)?
Lets do something about this together, this isnt you or your fault its a shared issue and we together can get this sorted.

Do less talking when you have your talk and more listening.
She sounds like a woman thats broken and frustrated and needs help.
You also do.

worried1000

rw3uhrwe wrote: »

OP I might be stating the obvious but I wonder what approach has been tried to date.
Has it been "I am not happy, You do this XYZ, You etc etc?
or another aspect is that what is being heard from by wife?

Perhaps the talk could come from a different coalface.
You dont seem happy how can I help? and try to continue in that manner.
What do we and I need to do? How do we get back to being a team and being great together (assuming it was in the past)?
Lets do something about this together, this isnt you or your fault its a shared issue and we together can get this sorted.

Do less talking when you have your talk and more listening.
She sounds like a woman thats broken and frustrated and needs help.
You also do.

Hi there - I try not to be judgemental and don't use confrontational or accusatory words when trying to discuss things. My wife however will always hark back to the most recent issue irrespective of the importance of it. She tends to miss the elephant in the room and is hell bent on been told she is right all the time. I avoid blaming her on things and usually share the blame even when its apparent that she has been the one at fault. She likes to re-visit things over & over again in minute detail.
My default position is that I usually will accept things are at least my fault or someone else's (rarely hers) as the conversation will just disintegrate if I try to apportion blame in her direction. I have been doing this for an awful long time and I think my policy of appeasing her doesn't work.
Its very frustrating really.
I did tell her today that we need to move things on (e.g try counselling again) so hopefully we will progress things a bit