"Not to be sold individually"

MrStuffins

Hi,

My local Spar refused to sell me a special pack of Coca Cola, I think it was 2 of €3.50, on the basis that "We're opening them and selling them separate".

They then opened up the packs and sold them as individual bottles for €2.40 a bottle, dispite the fact that it said "not to be sold separately" on the bottles.

Is there anyone I can email in this situation?

L1011

As far as I know there is absolutely no legal restriction on this, the marking is solely there to try discourage it from happening. Realistically their wholesaler won't care and Coca Cola HBC won't have a direct relationship with them.

irish_goat

Take your business elsewhere.

Ken.

Coke-cola is the only one you could email. There is no law against it at the moment. http://www.valueireland.com/2013/04/its-not-illegal-to-sell-multi-pack-items-individually/

The_Pretender

I think the only thing you can really do is contact the supplier, there's no law against it as it's just down to manufacturers.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Not much you can do about it. I saw the local garage shop emptying selection boxes in January to sell the bars separately but nobody I contacted cared an iota about it.

eireannBEAR

Rey Raspy Yokel wrote: »

Not much you can do about it. I saw the local garage shop emptying selection boxes in January to sell the bars separately but nobody I contacted cared an iota about it.

Why do you care about it?

MrStuffins

Yeah I didn't think there was much to be done legally but it seems a bit unfair to the consumer.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

eireannBEAR wrote: »

Why do you care about it?

I don't particularly, but felt it was mean-spirited and wondered was it even legal. Not that I should have to explain myself to you. I was answering the query raised by the OP!:mad:

Red Crow

Actually the manufacturer should care about it. Usually these promotions are done at the cost of the producer so that they can get new customers to try their products hence the special price.

However, they know this happens all the time. The only way to deter this practice is to take your custom elsewhere. These are just greedy shop owners who are refusing to pass on the discount to the customer.

Red Crow

Just in case you're interested I'd say the deal you're referring to is the current Coca Cola Promotion which is 2 x 2ltr for €3.80. Typically a batch of Coca Cola 2ltr bottles will come in 4's. This means that in a single batch there will be 4 x 2ltr bottles. They buy these in for about a €10 delivered, which Spar would probably be able to negotiate an even better price. If they split these double packs that means that they have 8 x 2ltr bottles of Coca Cola which they bought for €1.25 each and are now selling them for €2.40 each.

That's a profit of 92% when they should be only making 52% profit on each 2ltr pack if they sell at the manufacturers recommended price. In monetary terms they're charging you an extra 50c a bottle just to shop with Spar when Tesco and Dunnes will probably have the €3.80 promotion.


Shop local, eh?

Atlantic Dawn

For certain items that are sold seperately from the main box (eg if you were selling individual bars from selection box) the wrapper of the item doesn't come with the ingredients in english and contact details of a European supplier, selling items like this would be illegal. Selection boxes normally list the items ingradients on the main box and not on the item itself.

OP if it was me I would take my business elsewhere.

Soundman

From the National Consumer Agency's Facebook page dated 4th February:

Have you ever seen items being sold individually that say they are part of a multipack? Phrases like ‘not to be sold separately’ are only a recommendation from the manufacturer - it is not a breach of consumer law.

punisher5112

Maybe contact the main brand of Spar as it is a franchise and the department may not be happy with this type of thing going on as they will loose business.

These types of offers are what brings customers in.

To me it seems very bad practice but do know where there have been times where the order was late and products may be split to cover the area of single bottles lets say.

foggy_lad

Soundman wrote: »

From the National Consumer Agency's Facebook page dated 4th February:

Quote:
Have you ever seen items being sold individually that say they are part of a multipack? Phrases like ‘not to be sold separately’ are only a recommendation from the manufacturer - it is not a breach of consumer law.

But if the label on the inner packaging does not carry certain information about weight, ingredients nutritional values etc that must legally be provided on food then offences are being committed by the shopkeepers.

OP you should contact the manufacturers and let them know. They will get on to the wholesalers who should sort it out.

punisher5112

foggy_lad wrote: »

But if the label on the inner packaging does not carry certain information about weight, ingredients nutritional values etc that must legally be provided on food then offences are being committed by the shopkeepers

Usually all thats missing is the barcode.

Shelflife

Red Crow wrote: »

Just in case you're interested I'd say the deal you're referring to is the current Coca Cola Promotion which is 2 x 2ltr for €3.80. Typically a batch of Coca Cola 2ltr bottles will come in 4's. This means that in a single batch there will be 4 x 2ltr bottles. They buy these in for about a €10 delivered, which Spar would probably be able to negotiate an even better price. If they split these double packs that means that they have 8 x 2ltr bottles of Coca Cola which they bought for €1.25 each and are now selling them for €2.40 each.

That's a profit of 92% when they should be only making 52% profit on each 2ltr pack if they sell at the manufacturers recommended price. In monetary terms they're charging you an extra 50c a bottle just to shop with Spar when Tesco and Dunnes will probably have the €3.80 promotion.


Shop local, eh?

Im not condoning what the shop did, for me its poor practise. However your figures are so far off the mark its a joke.

Based on the €3.80 price the shop will make approx. 13% profit by doing what they are doing they would make approx. 30%, which are nowhere near what you are quoting.

Quoting crazy figures which fail to take VAT into account gives people a false impression of the profit margins that retailers have.

glued

Shelflife wrote: »

Im not condoning what the shop did, for me its poor practise. However your figures are so far off the mark its a joke.

Based on the €3.80 price the shop will make approx. 13% profit by doing what they are doing they would make approx. 30%, which are nowhere near what you are quoting.

Quoting crazy figures which fail to take VAT into account gives people a false impression of the profit margins that retailers have.

Hi Shelfie,

Both of you are completely incorrect.

The vendor pays €1.25 per bottle. That has a VAT input of 29c. They sell for €2.40. Which has a VAT output of 55c. This gives rise to a VAT liability of 26c per bottle. The vendor makes €1.15 - 26c = €0.89 per bottle.

You would probably want to get your figures correct before attacking another poster.

dudara

Coca-Cola take their marketing & brand very seriously. Contact Coca-Cola Hellenic (the bottlers and distributors for Ireland).

foggy_lad

dudara wrote: »

Coca-Cola take their marketing & brand very seriously. Contact Coca-Cola Hellenic (the bottlers and distributors for Ireland).

They will remove any of their fridges or promotional materials from shops that split multiple packs or sell imported cans/bottles of coke. I reported a shop in Carlow before that was selling foreign coke with Arabic writing, had no ingredients in English which was illegal and the shop had them in a fridge rented from coca-cola.

L1011

Spar shops rarely (not never obviously) have branded fridges from my experience.

JackieChan

This practice seems to be more common.My local Supervalu does the same with beers. Ive seen them take the cans out of 8 packs(which they sell at 13 euro) and sell them individually for somewhere between 2 and 2.15 a can nearly dependending on the day you go in!

foggy_lad

JackieChan wrote: »

This practice seems to be more common.My local Supervalu does the same with beers. Ive seen them take the cans out of 8 packs(which they sell at 13 euro) and sell them individually for somewhere between 2 and 2.15 a can nearly dependending on the day you go in!

The difference there is those cans do not have "not to be sold separately" printed on them.

Akrasia

Its a free market. If your shop wants to charge you a hundred euros for a bottle of coke, he can do so as long as the price is marked clearly. You're free to take your business elsewhere.

Some convenience style shops like to offer variety and value, others choose to sell a limited stock of items at a higher mark-up and compete based on the convenience of their location. The consumer then has the choice to pay the higher price for the convenience, or shop somewhere else.

The margins in small shops are excruciatingly tight. All shops need a few reliable sellers that are higher mark-up so that they can afford to cover the costs of other items that are sold at barely even break-even prices. (Ice cream cones, deli food, car washes etc have kept petrol stations going when the profits from the sale of petrol itself could be miniscule (or even loss making when theft is factored in)

doublej

glued wrote: »

Hi Shelfie,

Both of you are completely incorrect.

The vendor pays €1.25 per bottle. That has a VAT input of 29c. They sell for €2.40. Which has a VAT output of 55c. This gives rise to a VAT liability of 26c per bottle. The vendor makes €1.15 - 26c = €0.89 per bottle.

You would probably want to get your figures correct before attacking another poster.

I'm taking the quote "delivered around€10" to be a VAT- exclusive trade price as that is how retailers understand pricing,i.e cost price is an ex VAT price.
If the retailer sold at €3.80 that is VAT incl so it's €3.09 ex VAT.
They sell at 3.09 having paid 2.50, a profit of .59 cent, or 19.1%.
If they choose to break them up and sell each bottle for €2.40 the sale price is €1.95 ex vat on a cost of €1.25, a cash margin of 75c or 38.5%.
The shop sells 4 x 2 packs and earns €2.36 or the shop sells 8 individual bottles and makes €6.00.

skelligs

glued wrote: »

Hi Shelfie,

Both of you are completely incorrect.

The vendor pays €1.25 per bottle. That has a VAT input of 29c. They sell for €2.40. Which has a VAT output of 55c. This gives rise to a VAT liability of 26c per bottle. The vendor makes €1.15 - 26c = €0.89 per bottle.

You would probably want to get your figures correct before attacking another poster.

vendor price is never ever quoted including VAT.

Also cost price of €10 for 4x2x2l bottles is probably the bulk discounted price. Musgraves currently show that selling at 3.80 give a 13% return which gives a cost of about 2.70 + vat per pack.

I'm in Musgraves later and will give a precise price. Also, the cost price difference between the promotional packs and the normal packs is miniscule.

P. Breathnach

Promotional multi-packs are intended to benefit the consumer, and the supplier gives discounts that are intended to be passed on to customers.

If a retailer splits them in order to take for himself the benefit of the discount, it is a mean thing to do. I see that as an issue between the retailer and the supplier.

Where, as in the case described by the OP, the retailer actually refuses to sell any of the multipacks, it is meanness on a level that shows contempt for consumers, and that retailer would never again get my business.

Shelflife

glued wrote: »

Hi Shelfie,

Both of you are completely incorrect.

The vendor pays €1.25 per bottle. That has a VAT input of 29c. They sell for €2.40. Which has a VAT output of 55c. This gives rise to a VAT liability of 26c per bottle. The vendor makes €1.15 - 26c = €0.89 per bottle.

You would probably want to get your figures correct before attacking another poster.

How to calculate magins 101.

Cost price of product is €10.85 (actual price charged to me by my supplier) this is net of vat. therefore each split single unit costs €1.36 and the twin pack costs €2.72

Selling price is €3.80 less the vat €3.09.

Take €3.09 - €2.72 = €0.37 this is your gross profit

€0.37 is then divided by the vat exclusive selling price (€3.09 in this case) to give you your gross margin % which is 12%

Based on selling them individually at €2.40 each the gross margin works out at 30%.

glued dont try to tell your moma how to suck eggs

glued

doublej wrote: »

I'm taking the quote "delivered around€10" to be a VAT- exclusive trade price as that is how retailers understand pricing,i.e cost price is an ex VAT price.
If the retailer sold at €3.80 that is VAT incl so it's €3.09 ex VAT.
They sell at 3.09 having paid 2.50, a profit of .59 cent, or 19.1%.
If they choose to break them up and sell each bottle for €2.40 the sale price is €1.95 ex vat on a cost of €1.25, a cash margin of 75c or 38.5%.
The shop sells 4 x 2 packs and earns €2.36 or the shop sells 8 individual bottles and makes €6.00.

You can't ignore VAT inputs when calculating profit. It defeats the purpose

TerrorFirmer

My issue would be far less with selling 'not for individual sale' items but you actually went to the till with a promotional pack that was intact and at the point of sale you were told "sorry, you cannot buy this promotional pack as you found it on the shelf for sale, as we open them and sell them individually"?

glued

Shelflife wrote: »

How to calculate magins 101.

Cost price of product is €10.85 (actual price charged to me by my supplier) this is net of vat. therefore each split single unit costs €1.36 and the twin pack costs €2.72

Selling price is €3.80 less the vat €3.09.

Take €3.09 - €2.72 = €0.37 this is your gross profit

€0.37 is then divided by the vat exclusive selling price (€3.09 in this case) to give you your gross margin % which is 12%

Based on selling them individually at €2.40 each the gross margin works out at 30%.

glued dont try to tell your moma how to suck eggs

:rolleyes:

Read my post again

doublej

glued wrote: »

You can't ignore VAT inputs when calculating profit. It defeats the purpose

Glued;be sensible.
A product that is vat inclusive cost of €12.30 is ex vat €10.00.
It sells for €18.45 vat incl,€15.00 ex vat.

The cash and % margin are exactly the same whether with or without VAT .€18.45- €12.30 is €6.15 vat incl;less vat it is €5, which is the same as €15-€10.

If I buy for €10 and sell for €15, the margin is 33.3%
If I buy for €12.30 and sell for €18.45 the margin is 33.3%.

Shelflife

glued wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Read my post again

I did, you said that I was completely wrong when I was talking about margins and then rambled on about VAT figures when we were discussing margins.

I backed up my original figures with specifics and you give me rolly eyes and read my post again crap.

The original poster stated that retailers made 52% on a pack sold at €3.80 and 92% on a split pack which is utter bull****, if those figures were true id be retired in the bahamas at this stage instead of working 7 day weeks, I corrected the poster and you stated that I was completely wrong and threw out some vat figures, which although they were correct added nothing to the discussion.

I stand over my figures.

skelligs

glued wrote: »

Hi Shelfie,

Both of you are completely incorrect.

The vendor pays €1.25 per bottle. That has a VAT input of 29c. They sell for €2.40. Which has a VAT output of 55c. This gives rise to a VAT liability of 26c per bottle. The vendor makes €1.15 - 26c = €0.89 per bottle.

You would probably want to get your figures correct before attacking another poster.

No-one seems to be able to get your figures.

Retail price of €2.40 = net price before vat of €1.95 (1.95 = 23% = 2.40)

Cost price is 1.25 (for ease of figures)

So by splitting the pack which very few retailer do (bottle are marked part of multi pack) the retailer has a profit before costs of 70c or 36%. Selling at 3.80 based on a cost of 2.50 + Vat (1.25x 2) give a profit before costs of 59c or 19% net of vat.

When calculating margins or doing a cost/retail analysis, you always disregard vat as vat is not a net part of your cost or profit.

MrStuffins

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

My issue would be far less with selling 'not for individual sale' items but you actually went to the till with a promotional pack that was intact and at the point of sale you were told "sorry, you cannot buy this promotional pack as you found it on the shelf for sale, as we open them and sell them individually"?

Well I hadn't gone to the till. I was in the shop and the promotional packs were out on the floor. When I went to pick one up I was told that they were goin to be broken p and sold individually. Later on when I returned to the shopm the bottles all had "Not to be Sold Separately" on them.

P. Breathnach

MrStuffins wrote: »

Well I hadn't gone to the till. I was in the shop and the promotional packs were out on the floor. When I went to pick one up I was told that they were goin to be broken p and sold individually. Later on when I returned to the shopm the bottles all had "Not to be Sold Separately" on them.

Hmm. Did you return to buy stuff there, or to satisfy your (and our) curiosity?

MrStuffins

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Hmm. Did you return to buy stuff there, or to satisfy your (and our) curiosity?

Well, I thought "surely the bottles say 'not to be sold separately'?" so I went back to check if they had. I then bought my Coca Cola in the neighbouring shop alongside everything else I had on the shopping list

glued

skelligs wrote: »

No-one seems to be able to get your figures.

Retail price of €2.40 = net price before vat of €1.95 (1.95 = 23% = 2.40)

Cost price is 1.25 (for ease of figures)

So by splitting the pack which very few retailer do (bottle are marked part of multi pack) the retailer has a profit before costs of 70c or 36%. Selling at 3.80 based on a cost of 2.50 + Vat (1.25x 2) give a profit before costs of 59c or 19% net of vat.

When calculating margins or doing a cost/retail analysis, you always disregard vat as vat is not a net part of your cost or profit.

I was ignoring VAT and I removed it from the calculation. I'm sure if you re-read my post you will see that.

Also 3.80 is the RRP not the figure the shop is selling it for, which was the whole point of the thread....

rubadub

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

For certain items that are sold seperately from the main box (eg if you were selling individual bars from selection box) the wrapper of the item doesn't come with the ingredients in english and contact details of a European supplier, selling items like this would be illegal.

Can you point to the law on this? I also presumed they purposely left off information to make it harder to sell. But then how are shops selling other stuff with little or no labelling? If I go into a Leonidas shop and select chocolates I get no info like weight or ingredients, or they can be ready boxed. I can get cakes in tesco with no info, or chocolate biscuits etc.

The only legal issue I do imagine is at risk is the weights. I expect if you say a bag of crisps is 25g then legally it must be within a certain tolerance, like 20-30g. Often with multipack crisps you will get some really light bags, far lighter than any retail pack variation. I figure they have machines running faster at wider tolerances. Then I imagine the overall weight of the multipack is within tolerance but you might have a 15g and a 35g bag in the same pack -cancelling each other out.

MrStuffins wrote: »

I then bought my Coca Cola in the neighbouring shop alongside everything else I had on the shopping list

I often buy broken up packs since the retailer can afford to sell cheaper if working on the same margins. Or course some will charge the same or even more, but the way some people go on you would swear no shop has ever passed on even a small % of the savings.

Many shops I go to engage in this practice, I seek out shops which are good value and it makes sense that they would be doing this. I avoid expensive shops, many of which also engage in this practice.

slimjimmc

rubadub wrote: »

Can you point to the law on this? I also presumed they purposely left off information to make it harder to sell. But then how are shops selling other stuff with little or no labelling? If I go into a Leonidas shop and select chocolates I get no info like weight or ingredients, or they can be ready boxed. I can get cakes in tesco with no info, or chocolate biscuits etc.

The only legal issue I do imagine is at risk is the weights. I expect if you say a bag of crisps is 25g then legally it must be within a certain tolerance, like 20-30g. Often with multipack crisps you will get some really light bags, far lighter than any retail pack variation. I figure they have machines running faster at wider tolerances. Then I imagine the overall weight of the multipack is within tolerance but you might have a 15g and a 35g bag in the same pack -cancelling each other out.


I often buy broken up packs since the retailer can afford to sell cheaper if working on the same margins. Or course some will charge the same or even more, but the way some people go on you would swear no shop has ever passed on even a small % of the savings.

Many shops I go to engage in this practice, I seek out shops which are good value and it makes sense that they would be doing this. I avoid expensive shops, many of which also engage in this practice.

Here you go.
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_of_food.html
and
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_presentation_advertising_foodstuffs/general_labelling_provisions.html

The current legislation applies to the general labelling of pre-packaged foodstuffs for sale to the consumer and the catering industry within the European Union.

kc90

glued wrote: »

You can't ignore VAT inputs when calculating profit. It defeats the purpose

glued wrote: »

I was ignoring VAT and I removed it from the calculation. I'm sure if you re-read my post you will see that.

Also 3.80 is the RRP not the figure the shop is selling it for, which was the whole point of the thread....

What am I missing here?

rubadub

slimjimmc wrote: »

Here you go.
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_of_food.html
and
http://www.fsai.ie/legislation/food_legislation/labelling_presentation_advertising_foodstuffs/general_labelling_provisions.html

Some interesting stuff in this PDF, which explains it in normal language.

https://www.fsai.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=1220

Sugar, cocoa and chocolate confectionery products less
than 50gm in weight are exempt from declaring the net
quantity on the label however, the remaining general
labelling rules apply (as per European Communities
(Labelling, Presentation and Advertising of Foodstuffs)
(Amendment) (No.2) Regulations, 2003 (S.I. No. 451
of 2003))

I always noticed wispas & aeros and some other light bars did not declare weight and I wondered how they got away with hiding the fact that they are miserably small. Several bars have dropped below that limit recently.

(e) Other exemptions
Individually wrapped fancy confectionery
Individually wrapped fancy confectionery not enclosed
in any further packaging and intended for sale as a single
item need only indicate the name of the product and the
name and address of the manufacturer, packer or seller on
the label. Fancy confectionery is taken to mean a product in
the form of a figure, an animal, egg etc. or in any other
fancy form

You could argue a mulitpack bar is this. Often the address would be missing though.


Below is probably the Leonidas case

(b) Food pre-packaged for direct sale
Pre-packaged food that is packaged by a person who sells
them for retail sale on the same premises (or from a vehicle
used by that person) need only indicate the name of the
food on the label, e.g. coleslaw pre-packed into containers
on the premises need only declare the name ‘coleslaw’ on
the label.
However, where the person packaging the food sells it from
another premises owned by him/her, or onto another
business, the exemption no longer applies and the food
must be labelled in full.

Below would be tesco chocolate cookies made in house

(c) Pre-packaged flour confectionery for direct sale
Pre-packaged flour confectionery for sale on the premises
from which they are produced, need only indicate the
name of the food on the label, e.g. a pre-packaged
Madeira Cake baked on the premises from which it is sold
need only indicate ‘Madeira Cake’ on the label.

http://ec.europa.eu/food/food/labellingnutrition/foodlabelling/docs/qanda_application_reg1169-2011_en.pdf

2.1.2 In the case of a 'multipack' package consisting of individually
packed items which are sold by producers to
wholesalers/retailers, should the mandatory particulars required
under Articles 9 and 10 of the FIC Regulation appear on each
individually packed item?
This transaction concerns a stage prior to sale to the final consumer where the sale/supply to mass caterers is not involved. In such a case, the mandatory particulars required under Articles 9 and 10 of the FIC Regulation shall appear in one of the following places:
• On the prepackaging [i.e. on the 'multipack' package]; or,
• On a label attached thereto; or,
• On the commercial documents referring to the foods, where it can be guaranteed that such documents either accompany the food to which they refer or were sent before or at the same time as delivery. In such cases, however, the following particulars must also appear on the external packaging in which the prepacked foods are
presented for marketing:
ƒ The name of the food;
ƒ The date of minimum durability or the 'use by' date;
ƒ Any special storage conditions and/or conditions of use;
ƒ The name or business name and address of the responsible food business operator.
Therefore, each individually packed item need not to be labelled as such.
However, if the wholesaler/retailer decides to sell the individually packed items to the final consumer, he must ensure that the mandatory particulars required under Articles 9 and 10 of the FIC Regulation appear on each one of them, on the basis of the information appearing on the prepackaging or on a label attached thereto or on the accompanying commercial documents.

dring

MrStuffins wrote: »

Hi,

My local Spar refused to sell me a special pack of Coca Cola, I think it was 2 of €3.50, on the basis that "We're opening them and selling them separate".

They then opened up the packs and sold them as individual bottles for €2.40 a bottle, dispite the fact that it said "not to be sold separately" on the bottles.

Is there anyone I can email in this situation?

If it says "2 for 3.50" on the pack then are they not obliged to sell the pack at the price?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

ScouseMouse

dring wrote: »

If it says "2 for 3.50" on the pack then are they not obliged to sell the pack at the price?

Put it like this. If you set up tomorrow makeing a product. Lets say biscuits.

You can put on the label RRP 1.99. RRP stands for RECOMMENDED retail price. However, you do not have any say in the selling price, and if you try to force the store to sell at that price, you fall foul of price fixing legislation.

It can have whatever on the front, but there is absolutley obligation to sell at that price.