Why are there no races in Phoenix Park?

Bristolscale7

A long time ago I did the legendary bicycle races in Brooklyn's Prospect Park and Central Park in Manhattan. I even raced on Staten Island once. Phoenix park seems like an ideal venue for road races--it's hard to imagine a better crit circuit. So what's the story with Phoenix Park and the lack of bike races? I assume it's a decision of the park officials rather than race organizers.

Lumen

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/paul-kimmage-only-the-privileged-or-motorists-are-free-to-use-irelands-highways-30158913.html

Chips Lovell

The park used to be a big venue for racing. I've pictures of my Dad racing there back in the fifties.

There were regular races in the Park up until a few years ago (did a few of them myself). Unfortunately, it became progressively more difficult to get permission to run a race there until clubs just gave up on it.

Paul Kimmage mentions this issue in his piece this weekend about how some local authorities are putting the squeeze on cycling and triathlons.

The last time a race was held in the Phoenix Park? A Wednesday evening in May 2010.

Alice Sherratt of the Irish Road Club was the organiser that night.

"I had meetings with the OPW and they put us on the Khyber pass circuit," she says. "It was a great circuit, hard to manage, but we ran it and it was great but the following day I was called in and told we couldn't have it any more because the hospital (St Mary's) people, coming into change shifts, were complaining.

"They told us we could have it if we ran the races at eight o'clock at night, which was totally impractical. They just didn't want us. The Park was the ideal place but we were put out of it, literally. They don't want to upset the motorists. I went to meetings with them and pointed it out that in major cities in other countries they close the parks at six o'clock and hand them over to the public but they wouldn't entertain me."

Inquitus

A park is by definition a recreational area, not a rat run for motorists.......or so I thought...

Raam

Park should be closed to motorists as a through-way. Some parking for folk visiting the park is fine, but it should not be an artery into the city.

superlav

Absolutely loved racing in the Park after work on a Summer evening.
Have only done the Khyber Pass ciruit, which always provided really good hard racing. Didn't realise till I read Kimmage's piece that there were so many circuits used in the past.

The races I've done there were always handicaped, and due to the tight roads it was quite a job to get through the groups as they were caught. I'm not sure the narrow roads would accomodate the numbers that such events would attract with the popularity of our sport right now. Limited numbers, pre entry would be the way forward.

Oh yeah, and giving the park back to recreational users, rather than commuting motoroists would help too.

Lumen

I think Buffalo has a load more of these.

ragazzo

superlav wrote: »

Absolutely loved racing in the Park after work on a Summer evening.
Have only done the Khyber Pass ciruit, which always provided really good hard racing. Didn't realise till I read Kimmage's piece that there were so many circuits used in the past.

The races I've done there were always handicaped, and due to the tight roads it was quite a job to get through the groups as they were caught. I'm not sure the narrow roads would accomodate the numbers that such events would attract with the popularity of our sport right now. Limited numbers, pre entry would be the way forward.

Oh yeah, and giving the park back to recreational users, rather than commuting motoroists would help too.

There was always big bunches racing in the Phoenix Park over the years. The particular circuit being used would be closed off to traffic and most motorists were happy enough to follow the diversions. Pre-entry not necessary at all.
The attitude towards cycling in this public park changed around 2007/8. Every excuse was used by the park authorities to deny permission.
Some years prior to this , they had rearranged the 2 miler and cycling was denied access. The 1 miler was then utilised on a regular basis but cycling was soon excluded from there too. The Khyber circuit which was used in the 80's has long been idle.

Somebody is determined to keep cycling out of this public park. They have gone to the extreme of changing the junction layout on a corner which served both the 2 mile and 1 mile circuits. Ramps, street furniture and high kerbs have been installed which probably allows them to deny race permission based on their definition of health and safety.

It is a sad state of affairs but not surprising and shows how a public amenity is being misused to suit a state inability to provide real transport infrastructure.

Unfortunately, it seems that all this happened whilst we were sleeping. Suddenly we were not welcome to race in our own public park.

Where was our National Governing Body when this absurd plan was being hatched? Have they no voice whatsoever?
Sports fixtures and games continue in the Phoenix Park. Roads are often closed, rightly so, to facilitate this.
Everyone seems to be enjoying themselves. All sports seem welcome unless it involves a bike. I reckon there is a side of this story that we are not being told. It is time for CI to stand up and act for both its membership and the sport of cycling.

nak

Bike racing still seems to be fine in the park if it is part of a duathlon or triathlon. Not sure why they make an exception for those events.

Tenzor07

I would go so far as to say the OPW are "Anti-Cycling"

Many moons ago there used to be MTB races held around the Magazine fort, and they were brilliant because of the easy central location and for getting large numbers of spectators who may have no interest in Mtb'ing to see an actual event near the city center...

However this was over 15+ years ago, and no one has since managed to gain permissions for another event, the reasons? Environmental, will damage the grass and natural amenity area!!?

Yet, many "cross-country" / running races are held there each year.

Not to mention the now Infamous Raves which took place there last year, which would have completely destroyed the grass area where it was held...and the huge disruptions caused by drunken troublemakers and the large security presence around the area.

Raam

I know some guys have tried to see if CX races could be held there. No joy at all. Cross country running... not a problem at all.

Chips Lovell

Roads are regularly closed for running races. There's a duathlon series on next month that will use the Khyber circuit for the cycling leg. No idea why they give permission to other sports but block cycle races.

It's a massive shame, because as superlav and Tenzor say, it's a great resource, allowing Dubliners to ride over and do a race on a summer evening without much fuss.

godtabh

Lumen wrote: »

I think Buffalo has a load more of these.

Which one is Buffalo?

godtabh

Whats the difference between the park been used for 5k fun runs and not road races?

Ryath

godtabh wrote: »

Whats the difference between the park been used for 5k fun runs and not road races?

About 50k depending on daylight and 30kph faster

RayCun

It's harder to get the park for running races too now - I know there are a lot on, but there are others that have been refused permission. Number of participants and level of road closures will probably come into it.

godtabh

Ryath wrote: »

About 50k depending on daylight and 30kph faster

and bikes.

Was reading Kimmages article. He also mentions that there is no such issues with races outside of Dublin. Is it just the Gardai (i know there was on instance where one garda got the hump and that caused a lot of hassle)

roseybear

RayCun wrote: »

It's harder to get the park for running races too now - I know there are a lot on, but there are others that have been refused permission. Number of participants and level of road closures will probably come into it.

I 2nd this. Would have been involved with great ireland run over the yrs and even for that its tough to get permission

roseybear

RayCun wrote: »

It's harder to get the park for running races too now - I know there are a lot on, but there are others that have been refused permission. Number of participants and level of road closures will probably come into it.

I 2nd this. Would have been involved with great ireland run over the yrs and even for that its tough to get permission

kumate_champ07

Raam wrote: »

I know some guys have tried to see if CX races could be held there. No joy at all. Cross country running... not a problem at all.

thats bizarre

maloner

Anyone got a link to the courses themselves from ride with gps or similar?

AstraMonti

Can we do anything about it? Maybe have our clubs email CI so they can chase it being backed by us?

Bristolscale7

Lumen wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/paul-kimmage-only-the-privileged-or-motorists-are-free-to-use-irelands-highways-30158913.html

Thanks for that link!

Ryath

godtabh wrote: »

and bikes.

Was reading Kimmages article. He also mentions that there is no such issues with races outside of Dublin. Is it just the Gardai (i know there was on instance where one garda got the hump and that caused a lot of hassle)

Generally no such issue down the country. The North County Dublin issue did start with one of duty guard getting annoyed at being directed to stop by a marshal. We have no legal right to but most would see it as common sense we are advising cars of the danger and that to proceed would not be sensible. I'd be worried though it could start a precedent country wide with the Gardai. All it would take is one major incident to tip the balance. Riders can help themselves a lot by not riding on the wrong side of the road when racing and respecting the locals by not littering, parking inconsiderately and pissing everywhere. ie don't don't be needlessly aggravating the people on who's goodwill we rely on to race.

The vast majority of car drivers have no issue being held for a minute at a junction to let the bunch past. People riding on the wrong side forcing cars to pull in will piss off any one.

ThisRegard

nak wrote: »

Bike racing still seems to be fine in the park if it is part of a duathlon or triathlon. Not sure why they make an exception for those events.

Was just going to say myself that the Phoenix Park Duathlon series seems to ok, and they take the circuit down the Kyber and towards the hospital before swinging back up towards the Papal Cross. It's a tight enough circuit I suppose with not a whole lot of interference as Military Road is a no through road anyway.

Bristolscale7

Here's the flyer for the Central/Prospect Park races. Look at that huge # of races!
https://s3.amazonaws.com/USACFlyers/FL_2014-1163.pdf

superlav

maloner wrote: »

Anyone got a link to the courses themselves from ride with gps or similar?

http://www.strava.com/segments/5853019

Ryath

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

Here's the flyer for the Central/Prospect Park races. Look at that huge # of races!
https://s3.amazonaws.com/USACFlyers/FL_2014-1163.pdf

6.30 am starts :eek:

Bristolscale7

superlav wrote: »

http://www.strava.com/segments/5853019

What a fantastic circuit! And it doesn't even affect traffic on the main road through the Park or the north side.

Chips Lovell

Ryath wrote: »

6.30 am starts :eek:

I wouldn't mind that. One of the downsides to racing is that it can often take up most of your day.

Inquitus

$35 a race gets expensive fast!

Ryath

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I wouldn't mind that. One of the downsides to racing is that it can often take up most of your day.

If my legs worked first thing in the morning I'd be ok. Have tried doing a few early morning turbos but I can't put out anything near the power I can later in the day. I'm really not a morning person 10am Sunday spins are tough for me to make sometimes due to being such a night owl.

conkennedy

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

What a fantastic circuit! And it doesn't even affect traffic on the main road through the Park or the north side.

Yep, great route, but as someone living in Castleknock, I can see how it will piss motorists off... and those seeking access to St. Mary's.

But that's no excuse IMHO.

I believe similar issues have arisen with the Phoenix Park Motor Races (the oldest motoring event in the world no less!) with the OPW placing more and more demands on the organisers.

The OPW have recently as last summer spend a month of Sundays (literally) closing off Chesterfield Avenue for 'family' events. Making the main artery from the Phoenix Roundabout to North Road roundabout a pedestrian zone and therefore restricting motorists to the North or South sides of the Park Wall.

Perhaps that's the key, a racing event coupled with a 'family' event?

I think we're all in agreement that the Park should be used for cycling events and races and less cars!

Planet X

Raced there in the early 80's. Midweek evenings. Castleknock end. Flat really fast circuit. Remember M. Early turning up one evening (didn't compete obviously)
Very enjoyable stuff.

buffalo

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Paul Kimmage mentions this issue in his piece this weekend about how some local authorities are putting the squeeze on cycling and triathlons.

The last time a race was held in the Phoenix Park? A Wednesday evening in May 2010.

Just remembered I was there that night, before I started racing myself. Went out to take a look and take some photos: https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianmca/sets/72157623918647511/

bcmf

I am going to approach this form both sides of the fence:

From the outset let me point out that I grew up literally a stones throw form the Cabra gate entrance on Blackhorse Ave and I used to race the evening races there.

When any section of the park thats open to motorists gets closed for any reason it diverts traffic onto either Blackhorse Ave./Navan Road or on the Southern edge from Parkgate St. up to Chalpelizod and really cause's a backlog.
While an eve in off peak hours will minimise the chaos the disrupted traffic has to go somewhere.I know cars dont have a monopoly on the park but it is a major factor.

When you have an event , lets take yesterday's Great Ireland Run as an example where there were several thousand participants, and a section of the park gets closed then the surrounding area becomes a nightmare for residents. Yesterday I dropped my wife and her sister into the run and visited my dad at the same time. It was almost impossible to get to the house with cars seemingly abandonded. I know its the extreme end of things but all it takes is for a couple of inconsiderate morons to make a nuisance of themselves and residents complain putting everything in jeopardy.

Yestreday there were a huge amount of volunteers cleaning up litter from participants who thought that the best place for half empty bottles of water and gels was on the ground.
With the surge in the popularity of cycle racing and the attitude of some of the guys taking part that firing gel wrappers and bottles into the verge is acceptable then who will stay behind and clear up?

Combine this with the incident that the 'elders' on this forum will know about we really should accept that as a group we really need to cop the fook on.
I know they are a minority who think they are riding a pro event but it just gives the authorities an excuse.I do believe there is an anti - cycling sentiment out there


HOWEVER.......
It is a public park and without a doubt one of the best enclosed parks in the world and The OPW should make it available for everyone to use as long as they respect the park and everyone else who has the right to use it and the the residents who tolerate the crap they have to put up with everytime there is an event.

ragazzo

bcmf wrote: »

I am going to approach this form both sides of the fence:

From the outset let me point out that I grew up literally a stones throw form the Cabra gate entrance on Blackhorse Ave and I used to race the evening races there.

When any section of the park thats open to motorists gets closed for any reason it diverts traffic onto either Blackhorse Ave./Navan Road or on the Southern edge from Parkgate St. up to Chalpelizod and really cause's a backlog.
While an eve in off peak hours will minimise the chaos the disrupted traffic has to go somewhere.I know cars dont have a monopoly on the park but it is a major factor.

When you have an event , lets take yesterday's Great Ireland Run as an example where there were several thousand participants, and a section of the park gets closed then the surrounding area becomes a nightmare for residents. Yesterday I dropped my wife and her sister into the run and visited my dad at the same time. It was almost impossible to get to the house with cars seemingly abandonded. I know its the extreme end of things but all it takes is for a couple of inconsiderate morons to make a nuisance of themselves and residents complain putting everything in jeopardy.

Yestreday there were a huge amount of volunteers cleaning up litter from participants who thought that the best place for half empty bottles of water and gels was on the ground.
With the surge in the popularity of cycle racing and the attitude of some of the guys taking part that firing gel wrappers and bottles into the verge is acceptable then who will stay behind and clear up?

Combine this with the incident that the 'elders' on this forum will know about we really should accept that as a group we really need to cop the fook on.
I know they are a minority who think they are riding a pro event but it just gives the authorities an excuse.I do believe there is an anti - cycling sentiment out there


HOWEVER.......
It is a public park and without a doubt one of the best enclosed parks in the world and The OPW should make it available for everyone to use as long as they respect the park and everyone else who has the right to use it and the the residents who tolerate the crap they have to put up with everytime there is an event.

Whilst local residents may be put out by large events taking place in the Phoenix Park and closure of the park to vehicular traffic... this does not really apply to the topic of our discussion. The park was never closed to traffic to enable a cycle race to happen. There were some diversions within the park road network but nothing that would have been noticed by local residents.
Most riders cycled to the events with cars hardly filling the designated parking area. No fear of obstructing residents on Blackhorse Ave or neighbouring vicinities.

There should be no problem with gel wrappers in a park gallop. Riders should not feel the need to eat for an event that lasts approximately one hour. Anyone slurping gels should be outed by their peers.
A member of the promoting club could cycle around the circuit with a bag and collect litter that may have been discarded by riders participating in the race.

There are no good reasons why cycle racing should not be taking place in the Phoenix Park. One would expect to see sporting fixtures being played out in the leafy surrounds of the park as one takes an evening stroll. Instead, what does the largest park in Dublin offer? Noise, fumes and speeding cars and not a race number in sight.

bcmf

Don't disagree agree with anything you say but as I pointed out it only takes the actions of an ignorant few to disrupt the enjoyment of many.
And I did also state that I believe there is an anti cycling attitude in place.

Also for what's it's worth I believed at the time that I was living there that the park should be closed to motorists but now that would have major implications to the surrounding area.