Training as a solicitor in 2014

dashdoll

Hi guys,

I'm looking for some opinions or a bit of advice on the possiblity of training as a solicitor in the current climate. I'll give you a little info on my background.

I'm 26, have a LLB and a 1.1 LLM, QFAs and currently work for almost 2 yeras in an in-house legal dept of a financial services company as a legal assistant mainly drafting docs etc.

There is no room for progression in the role and so little else out there so considering leaving my job and sitting all 8 FE1s in Sept in the hope that I would at least be able to pass 5/6 with 4 months of full time study.

I'm just worried about the prospects of securing a decent paying traineeship if I was to pass the exams. I don't know if I'd be considered too old for a lot of firms as would be starting blackhall at 28. I'd like to get a feel for the market out there. There seemed to be a huge shortage of paying traineeships a few years ago so just wondering if it's as bad now?

Also, I know it's crazy to focus on the financial aspect while training for something long term but unfortunately, I don't have anyone to fall back on so it is an important consideration that I have to take into account so would be interested in roughly what kind of salary a trainee could expect?

Would really appreciate any opinions/advice :-)

WhiteWalls

Hi, I am currently doing an LLM. People in my class have sat the FE1'S and they are supposed to be very hard. Unless you get into one of the top four or five law firms who take people on and put them through the whole thing, you will find it very difficult. You will need huge financial backing. Looking at well over 20k.

I have been quizzing the people in my class and they said that you would be doing well to get minimum wage or the equivalent of the dole while training and then when your finished they won't take you on.

On the other hand I know people who are doing traineeships who say they love it but I don't know what their financial situation is. I would probably be willing to get into debt and become a solicitor but its not even worth anything to you in another country.

impr0v

I have assessed CV's before for well-paid (roughly 40-45k) trainee positions in a firm. I would recommend you for interview on the basis of the qualifications and experience that you describe - though the institutions from which you have obtained your LLB and LLM would have some bearing on the final decision to call you. Your age would not be an issue for me. In fact, it would probably be a plus.

If, as you say, there is no room for progression where you are, and you are no longer challenged by the role, the choice seems to be move somewhere else to do a similar type role, do the FE1's, or train for the Bar (presuming you don't want to explore an entirely new career, or unemployment). The fact that you have created this thread suggests that the FE1's would be your preference. I would not let the concerns that you have outlined hold you back.

If it offers you some small comfort, there is a pickup in demand for solicitors at the moment. In my view demand is likely to continue to grow over the next few years.

dashdoll

WhiteWalls wrote: »

Hi, I am currently doing an LLM. People in my class have sat the FE1'S and they are supposed to be very hard. Unless you get into one of the top four or five law firms who take people on and put them through the whole thing, you will find it very difficult. You will need huge financial backing. Looking at well over 20k.

I have been quizzing the people in my class and they said that you would be doing well to get minimum wage or the equivalent of the dole while training and then when your finished they won't take you on.

On the other hand I know people who are doing traineeships who say they love it but I don't know what their financial situation is. I would probably be willing to get into debt and become a solicitor but its not even worth anything to you in another country.

Thanks for that. I dont have financial backing so I guess Im trying to decide if its worth the risk long term to leave my job and sit all 8 exams in Sept. I could work and study part time but feel this would give me a better chance to make progress quicker. Just not sure if Im being delusional about it all!

dashdoll

impr0v wrote: »

I have assessed CV's before for well-paid (roughly 40-45k) trainee positions in a firm. I would recommend you for interview on the basis of the qualifications and experience that you describe - though the institutions from which you have obtained your LLB and LLM would have some bearing on the final decision to call you. Your age would not be an issue for me. In fact, it would probably be a plus.

If, as you say, there is no room for progression where you are, and you are no longer challenged by the role, the choice seems to be move somewhere else to do a similar type role, do the FE1's, or train for the Bar (presuming you don't want to explore an entirely new career, or unemployment). The fact that you have created this thread suggests that the FE1's would be your preference. I would not let the concerns that you have outlined hold you back.

If it offers you some small comfort, there is a pickup in demand for solicitors at the moment. In my view demand is likely to continue to grow over the next few years.

Some good info there.. thanks a mil. Yeah, I have to get out of my current role as there are no prospects and challenge anymore. I just hooe that Im not being completely delusional thinking I will land a traineeship relatively easily after passing the exams particularly when Im seriously considering leaving my permanent (dead end) role for it. I just think that leaving would allow me to dedicate all my time for a few months to studying and hopeefully get them done asap.

Arbiter of Good Taste

First of all well done in your results.

Secondly despite the myth Law is not the easy road to riches everyone thinks it is, so be prepared for a slog. But it's worth it if you enjoy what you do.

The fact is, at the moment you are not qualified to practice law so unless you plan to stay inhouse in a relatively junior role reporting to someone who may have half your brains, then I would look to qualify.

28 is not too old at all

Arbiter of Good Taste

Also you will have inhouse experience under your belt competing with people green out of college. You're in a good position I would say.

GusherING

I was in a pretty similar position OP. Had done my degree and masters in a non-law area, was studying for FE1s in my spare time while working full-time and was turning 28 when I decided to apply to the big firms for a training contract because I felt I had out-grown my old job.

My advice would be to try and do the milk-round for the big firms in the autumn and see if they make you an offer. I was amazed to learn that they often offer people training contracts despite not having done all/any of the FE1s, so it might be useful for you to give the milk-rounds a go before throwing in the towel with your current postion in work. On the other hand, this can be a double edged sword, as you will then be under pressure to pass all those exams in order to progress career-wise.

Also, believe me when I say the big firms would value someone who isn't straight out of college - there are hundreds of people with LLMs but no real work experience. I think your experience to date would be very attractive to them.

S12b

My few thoughts on the matter:

1) 28 is not too old. Most trainees are 24 or 25 starting so that's not much of a difference......35+ is a different story.

2) I understand your concern about the financial side and not wanting to spend money and then not get a contract. Easy solution to that is apply for summer internships (FE1s not required as majority are still in college). Having done an internship with a big firm, I know this is how they recruit the majority of trainees so if you could get an internship, based on your experience you would have a big advantage over 20/21 year old college students and would stand a good chance of getting a contract (they offer contracts to a big % of interns every summer). The firm would then pay for Blackhall and pay you a salary so in my eyes, it's the only way to go about things.

Finally, not wanting to sound negative, simply being realistic.....if you apply to all the big firms for internships and are unsuccessful, this would suggest you will not be successful applying for a traineeship. As I said above, they're recruiting more and more of their trainees through the summer internships than ever before (this coming from head of trainee recruitment in Matheson).

I hope this helps a bit!! Any questions, please ask!!

dashdoll

S12b wrote: »

My few thoughts on the matter:

1) 28 is not too old. Most trainees are 24 or 25 starting so that's not much of a difference......35+ is a different story.

2) I understand your concern about the financial side and not wanting to spend money and then not get a contract. Easy solution to that is apply for summer internships (FE1s not required as majority are still in college). Having done an internship with a big firm, I know this is how they recruit the majority of trainees so if you could get an internship, based on your experience you would have a big advantage over 20/21 year old college students and would stand a good chance of getting a contract (they offer contracts to a big % of interns every summer). The firm would then pay for Blackhall and pay you a salary so in my eyes, it's the only way to go about things.

Finally, not wanting to sound negative, simply being realistic.....if you apply to all the big firms for internships and are unsuccessful, this would suggest you will not be successful applying for a traineeship. As I said above, they're recruiting more and more of their trainees through the summer internships than ever before (this coming from head of trainee recruitment in Matheson).

I hope this helps a bit!! Any questions, please ask!!

Thanks for the advice. I think it's too late for me to apply for summer internships for this year so I'm thinking that I'm better off to take the risk and go full steam ahead with finishing work and hitting the books as opposed to waiting around for another year. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a total disaster!

Palo Alto

I worked as a solicitor for a year and am now back studying medicine, the mistake I made was going back up home to Belfast to qualify after doing my degree in Dublin. The north is pretty dead in terms of career advancement unless you have a partner as a relative, at least that's how it seemed to me at the time. But good luck with whatever you decide to do! I'd say working in Dublin would be much better opportunity wise at least.

Valentine1

dashdoll wrote: »

Thanks for that. I dont have financial backing so I guess Im trying to decide if its worth the risk long term to leave my job and sit all 8 exams in Sept. I could work and study part time but feel this would give me a better chance to make progress quicker. Just not sure if Im being delusional about it all!

dashdoll wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. I think it's too late for me to apply for summer internships for this year so I'm thinking that I'm better off to take the risk and go full steam ahead with finishing work and hitting the books as opposed to waiting around for another year. I just hope it doesn't turn out to be a total disaster!

OP as someone who is at the other end of the road you are considering going down let me give you some advice.

Firstly you are not too old by any means, infact you are probably at the roughly average age.

Secondly start applying for Training Contracts now. You need to get involved with the Big 5 Milkrounds process immediately, there is a thread about them on this Board which should be very useful. With your qualifications and experience you are way past the Internship stage and probably know more than most trainees. Also the Large firms will offer you a Training Contract before you have even sat an exam.

Perhaps Most importantly, do not quit your job to do the FE1s, the earliest you can start your training at this point is September 2015. That is 18 months away so it doesn't make any sense to quit your Job or to try to do all 8 in one sitting. Unless you were an absolute law nerd/machine in College passing 8 in one sitting is very very difficult.

In Summation the Training Contract is the important part, you need to focus on that. Milk rounds, making contacts in other large firms are the best way to secure a well paid TC. You can pick up your FE-1s along the way while working, you have two sittings to do it in which I'm sure you'll do.

Finally another route that might be possible is to work as a legal exec or some other role in a small firm with a view to becoming a Trainee with that firm in 2015, many many people go this route. the pay is less (much less) than at the big firms but Many people find the work and the balance between work and life more then make up for it.

Best of Luck!

dashdoll

Valentine1 wrote: »

OP as someone who is at the other end of the road you are considering going down let me give you some advice.

Firstly you are not too old by any means, infact you are probably at the roughly average age.

Secondly start applying for Training Contracts now. You need to get involved with the Big 5 Milkrounds process immediately, there is a thread about them on this Board which should be very useful. With your qualifications and experience you are way past the Internship stage and probably know more than most trainees. Also the Large firms will offer you a Training Contract before you have even sat an exam.

Perhaps Most importantly, do not quit your job to do the FE1s, the earliest you can start your training at this point is September 2015. That is 18 months away so it doesn't make any sense to quit your Job or to try to do all 8 in one sitting. Unless you were an absolute law nerd/machine in College passing 8 in one sitting is very very difficult.

In Summation the Training Contract is the important part, you need to focus on that. Milk rounds, making contacts in other large firms are the best way to secure a well paid TC. You can pick up your FE-1s along the way while working, you have two sittings to do it in which I'm sure you'll do.

Finally another route that might be possible is to work as a legal exec or some other role in a small firm with a view to becoming a Trainee with that firm in 2015, many many people go this route. the pay is less (much less) than at the big firms but Many people find the work and the balance between work and life more then make up for it.

Best of Luck!

Great post, thanks a mil!

I had applied previously to milkrounds with my degree and masters but withiut any legal experience and didnt get any interviews but I would hope that with 2years legal experience, finance diploma and fe1s I would have more luck but not sure if this would even make a difference!

The only reason Im considering leaving the job is because they arent willing to give me any study leave at all as they.know I will leave once I have my exams. I would love to start Blackhall in Sept 2015 and I think getting as many exams as possible in Sept is the best way to try achieve this.

Would love to guage whether people think things are picking up for trainees at the moment?

sunshine and showers

You're definitely not too old, but do bear in mind that if you want to work for one of the top five, they will be recruiting this year for contracts starting in 2017.

retroactive

dashdoll wrote: »

Great post, thanks a mil!

I had applied previously to milkrounds with my degree and masters but withiut any legal experience and didnt get any interviews but I would hope that with 2years legal experience, finance diploma and fe1s I would have more luck but not sure if this would even make a difference!

I have a 2.1 in Law and Economics and I successfully completed the degree course in Kings Inns. I had two years experience in a finance/legal department of a bank and completed my QFAs.... I didn't even get an interview for a legal exec role in Arthur Cox.

You can either take the view that it genuinely is competitive or that there are unseen factors at play. In any event, the reality of the situation means that you probability wont land your dream traineeship but maybe something else might pop up and there is definite real value to a professional qualification - guess in summary - "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

Hunchback

S12b wrote: »

My few thoughts on the matter:

1) 28 is not too old. Most trainees are 24 or 25 starting so that's not much of a difference......35+ is a different story.

2) I understand your concern about the financial side and not wanting to spend money and then not get a contract. Easy solution to that is apply for summer internships (FE1s not required as majority are still in college). Having done an internship with a big firm, I know this is how they recruit the majority of trainees so if you could get an internship, based on your experience you would have a big advantage over 20/21 year old college students and would stand a good chance of getting a contract (they offer contracts to a big % of interns every summer). The firm would then pay for Blackhall and pay you a salary so in my eyes, it's the only way to go about things.

Finally, not wanting to sound negative, simply being realistic.....if you apply to all the big firms for internships and are unsuccessful, this would suggest you will not be successful applying for a traineeship. As I said above, they're recruiting more and more of their trainees through the summer internships than ever before (this coming from head of trainee recruitment in Matheson).

I hope this helps a bit!! Any questions, please ask!!

This bit kills me - I'll be 35 when I graduate. Hopefully someone can counter this with anecdotal evidence to the contrary

Mr. Incognito

CKonetheonlyone wrote: »

This bit kills me - I'll be 35 when I graduate. Hopefully someone can counter this with anecdotal evidence to the contrary

How do you figure that if you are 28 now? The average age in blackhall keeps increasing. Average now is about 27

Hunchback

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

How do you figure that if you are 28 now? The average age in blackhall keeps increasing. Average now is about 27

I'm not the OP, just a concerned contributor

dashdoll

retroactive wrote: »

I have a 2.1 in Law and Economics and I successfully completed the degree course in Kings Inns. I had two years experience in a finance/legal department of a bank and completed my QFAs.... I didn't even get an interview for a legal exec role in Arthur Cox.

You can either take the view that it genuinely is competitive or that there are unseen factors at play. In any event, the reality of the situation means that you probability wont land your dream traineeship but maybe something else might pop up and there is definite real value to a professional qualification - guess in summary - "Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars."

It's situations like yours that really get me worried. I just feel that at this point I really need to get qualified to get anywhere or Ill be stuck in dead end roles like my current one.

I hope you got sorted with a traineeship in the end!

blueythebear

dashdoll wrote: »

It's situations like yours that really get me worried. I just feel that at this point I really need to get qualified to get anywhere or Ill be stuck in dead end roles like my current one.

I hope you got sorted with a traineeship in the end!

That poster didn't get an interview for the legal exec role in Cox's for an obvious reason. He/she had no interest in being a legal executive. It's clear that they would have left the role as soon as they had gotten a traineeship...

A degree in Law with the Kings Inn degree is not someone who would be satisfied with a legal exec role. No offence to legal executives, but the poster would have been way overqualified for he role, hence not getting an interview...

dashdoll

blueythebear wrote: »

That poster didn't get an interview for the legal exec role in Cox's for an obvious reason. He/she had no interest in being a legal executive. It's clear that they would have left the role as soon as they had gotten a traineeship...

A degree in Law with the Kings Inn degree is not someone who would be satisfied with a legal exec role. No offence to legal executives, but the poster would have been way overqualified for he role, hence not getting an interview...

Good to look at it from that perspective I guess, wouldn't have thought of it from that angle!

Valentine1

blueythebear wrote: »

That poster didn't get an interview for the legal exec role in Cox's for an obvious reason. He/she had no interest in being a legal executive. It's clear that they would have left the role as soon as they had gotten a traineeship...

A degree in Law with the Kings Inn degree is not someone who would be satisfied with a legal exec role. No offence to legal executives, but the poster would have been way overqualified for he role, hence not getting an interview...

100% true, the likes of Cox's don't hire people as legal execs if they are practically lawyers already.

OP don't be put off by stories about the Big 5, if you are good enough they'll hire you.

retroactive

blueythebear wrote: »

That poster didn't get an interview for the legal exec role in Cox's for an obvious reason. He/she had no interest in being a legal executive. It's clear that they would have left the role as soon as they had gotten a traineeship...

A degree in Law with the Kings Inn degree is not someone who would be satisfied with a legal exec role. No offence to legal executives, but the poster would have been way overqualified for he role, hence not getting an interview...

Actually I started working in a legal exec role in a top 10. My salary is a little more than my immediate colleagues. I'm saving for the bar though.. Maybe I shouldn't be satisfied but the reality of the situation is that I'm gaining invaluable experience and enjoying a little money. It's not huge amount of money and it doesn't have the satisfaction that a career at the bar would have but it is a step. I'm just going to keep going and make the best of any opportunity that comes my way.

waterfraud

WhiteWalls wrote: »

Hi, I am currently doing an LLM. People in my class have sat the FE1'S and they are supposed to be very hard. Unless you get into one of the top four or five law firms who take people on and put them through the whole thing, you will find it very difficult. You will need huge financial backing. Looking at well over 20k.

I have been quizzing the people in my class and they said that you would be doing well to get minimum wage or the equivalent of the dole while training and then when your finished they won't take you on.

On the other hand I know people who are doing traineeships who say they love it but I don't know what their financial situation is. I would probably be willing to get into debt and become a solicitor but its not even worth anything to you in another country.

I'm currently considering accepting a low paid training contract just to become qualified with a small firm in the south east. Finished a law degree last year and took the year out to sit the FE1s alongside a p/t job.

I'm guessing my situation is the kind of one the OP is dreading - firm won't pay PPC Fees (fair enough) but wont pay me anything while in Blackhall and even when I'm in the office pay is €1 less than minimum wage. After tax earning over 2 years wouldn't even cover fees! Obviously, both practices are prohibited by the NMWA 2000 but with all the competition out there from out-of-work fully qualified solicitors willing to work on jobbridge schemes maybe I'll just have to accept...

Sala

I have just finished PPC1 and I'm 28 and I was certainly not the only one. There are loads of people in the 26-29 age group and plenty more in their 30s 40s and 50s. It's not like university where most of the class are 19. There are people on second and third careers, loads of people with kids etc. Age doesn't matter in Blackhall

Op don't quit your job. I did my FE1s while working full time. Plus it took me so long to get the training contract you may need the job for a while longer!! Don't worry about age, worry about whether it's what you want to do, and if you can't get a fully funded training contract, can you afford it.

Valentine1

waterfraud wrote: »

I'm currently considering accepting a low paid training contract just to become qualified with a small firm in the south east. Finished a law degree last year and took the year out to sit the FE1s alongside a p/t job.

I'm guessing my situation is the kind of one the OP is dreading - firm won't pay PPC Fees (fair enough) but wont pay me anything while in Blackhall and even when I'm in the office pay is €1 less than minimum wage. After tax earning over 2 years wouldn't even cover fees! Obviously, both practices are prohibited by the NMWA 2000 but with all the competition out there from out-of-work fully qualified solicitors willing to work on jobbridge schemes maybe I'll just have to accept...

Thats a deal with the devil.

Hunchback

Sala wrote: »

I have just finished PPC1 and I'm 28 and I was certainly not the only one. There are loads of people in the 26-29 age group and plenty more in their 30s 40s and 50s. It's not like university where most of the class are 19. There are people on second and third careers, loads of people with kids etc. Age doesn't matter in Blackhall

Op don't quit your job. I did my FE1s while working full time. Plus it took me so long to get the training contract you may need the job for a while longer!! Don't worry about age, worry about whether it's what you want to do, and if you can't get a fully funded training contract, can you afford it.

great to hear Sala.

Benbulnen64

WhiteWalls wrote: »

Hi, I am currently doing an LLM. People in my class have sat the FE1'S and they are supposed to be very hard. Unless you get into one of the top four or five law firms who take people on and put them through the whole thing, you will find it very difficult. You will need huge financial backing. Looking at well over 20k.

I have been quizzing the people in my class and they said that you would be doing well to get minimum wage or the equivalent of the dole while training and then when your finished they won't take you on.

On the other hand I know people who are doing traineeships who say they love it but I don't know what their financial situation is. I would probably be willing to get into debt and become a solicitor but its not even worth anything to you in another country.

That's incorrect to say it's not even worth anything to you in another country. There are changeover arrangements in other countries to qualify involving additional study. But the degree/ qualification is certainly taken into account.

Sala

CKonetheonlyone wrote: »

great to hear Sala.

I can't emphasise enough, don't worry about your age. I was, and there is no issue. There are loads of people who graduated and did FE1s and spent years looking for training contracts as well, so the average age is increasing. This year I think 50%+ were over 26 years, and on our first day they commented we are a very old bunch! Most people over 30 they ever had.

impr0v

waterfraud wrote: »

I'm currently considering accepting a low paid training contract just to become qualified with a small firm in the south east. Finished a law degree last year and took the year out to sit the FE1s alongside a p/t job.

I'm guessing my situation is the kind of one the OP is dreading - firm won't pay PPC Fees (fair enough) but wont pay me anything while in Blackhall and even when I'm in the office pay is €1 less than minimum wage. After tax earning over 2 years wouldn't even cover fees! Obviously, both practices are prohibited by the NMWA 2000 but with all the competition out there from out-of-work fully qualified solicitors willing to work on jobbridge schemes maybe I'll just have to accept...

Don't do that. As I think I have already said in the thread I think there is a slow but steady pickup in legal work at present. It would be better to go the route that other posters have taken - try and get experience as a legal exec for a year or two and then apply for traineeship. At least you will be paid a sustainable wage while the market (hopefully) improves and competition for places lessens.

EllenRommer

Hi Dashdoll.... I'm not sure if I'll be of help to you, but I'll throw my spanner in the works any way... on the subject of leaving work I am working full time so I have taken to doing 4 Fe1's per sitting. I just sat the first 4 recently. I have no background in Law what so ever and I had to practically teach my self Law in order to sit... and the best bit... I'm 47... ! So you are not too old..
Your decision will probably have to depend more on finances than any thing else really ... I wish you the very best of luck..