Getting back stolen property

wirehairmax

Long story short: our house was broken into and robbed in Feb 2012. A number of items were stolen including the contents of the gun cabinet. The trio that robbed us were identified and arrested and subsequently released and never charged even though a number of factors easily identified them but that's another story for another day.
Anyway in August 2012, two rifles were recovered in a raid following a tip off on some lad in Dublin somewhere.(not one of the original knackers who robbed me) Since then they are being stored in a Garda evidence vault pending charges to be brought against this guy. From what I can figure out from conversations with various Garda involved is the DPP just hasn't got their finger out and made up their mind on whether or not to prosecute. In the meantime I have over €2k's worth of property in storage which I've never seen for myself and I cant use. I don't really want to go out and buy new rifles due to the BS involved in gun licencing in this country and also because its very hard to resell anything these days so if I do get back the stolen guns, I would be left with surplus guns which would be very hard to resell.
Is there any way I can get the DPP/Garda to do anything here? The summer evenings are approaching and I would like to get them back and decide from there what to do with them and hopefully they wont be damaged.
Is it worth engaging a solicitor to correspond with the DPP on this? or would that just be ignored?

whomitconcerns

they wont be released as they are evidence in an ongoing case. Did you not have an insurance claim after the break in?

wirehairmax

Insurance doesn't really come into it. I'd rather get them back as because of licencing etc, I'd rather have them back and know they were in working condition or only fit for scrappage. One way or the other at least then I could rest easy knowing where they are. Call me a sceptic but I wouldn't like to get a phone call in a few years time to let me know that a rifle licenced to me was used in a post office robbery. I just don't have any faith in the justice system, the gardai or civil servants and its been known for guns to be reported as being scrapped by gardai only to turn up again elsewhere. My shotgun was recovered separately and I made sure it was returned to my firearms dealer and not disposed of by the guards to ensure I knew exactly what happened to it even though it was chopped at the stock and barrel by whoever had it.
Call it ''peace of mind''.

hullaballoo

Unfortunately, any case that might be brought won't be able to proceed without this evidence. They cannot release it, even temporarily, because this breaks the chain of evidence.

You have to suck it up until the case is disposed of, I'm afraid. I understand this is frustrating in your situation due to the licencing issues around guns but AGS are entitled to store evidence this way. Given that the guns were recovered, I am unsure whether your insurance would be prepared to pay out anyway.

Pat Mustard

wirehairmax wrote: »

Anyway in August 2012, two rifles were recovered in a raid following a tip off on some lad in Dublin somewhere.(not one of the original knackers who robbed me) Since then they are being stored in a Garda evidence vault pending charges to be brought against this guy. From what I can figure out from conversations with various Garda involved is the DPP just hasn't got their finger out and made up their mind on whether or not to prosecute. In the meantime I have over €2k's worth of property in storage which I've never seen for myself and I cant use.

You could ask the investigating Garda for the relevant reference for correspondence and write to the DPP to ask her office to expedite the matter. You could write the letter yourself or you could hire a solicitor to do it for you.

Sometimes, the response can be that the Garda investigation is still ongoing, in which case it may be necessary to follow up with Gardai.

Santa Cruz

If the Gardaí were of the opinion that you did not take active precautions to secure your firearms they may object to having them returned to you

wirehairmax

Santa Cruz wrote: »

If the Gardaí were of the opinion that you did not take active precautions to secure your firearms they may object to having them returned to you

Never an issue. They were in a safe and securely bolted to the wall. These ***** came well prepared. I've had to replace the chopped up shotgun since and have other licences so that doesn't come into it.
My issue is with the lack of pace with which the DPP is acting.

Peregrinus

wirehairmax wrote: »

Call me a sceptic but I wouldn't like to get a phone call in a few years time to let me know that a rifle licenced to me was used in a post office robbery.

That ship has sailed. If you keep guns in conditions such that they could be stolen - and we know you did this - then you expose yourself to this risk. You can’t blame the guards for that.

wirehairmax wrote: »

My issue is with the lack of pace with which the DPP is acting.

I understand your frustration. But, in the various factors which determine the DPP’s approach to this case, I’m afraid your desire to get your guns back comes fairly low down. I don’t know what might be holding up a decision about prosecution but, whatever it is, it’s not going to disappear when he receives a letter from you saying you want your guns back.

Witcher

Peregrinus wrote: »

That ship has sailed. If you keep guns in conditions such that they could be stolen - and we know you did this - then you expose yourself to this risk. You can’t blame the guards for that.

He had them stored in line with Garda regulations on the storage of firearms.

No firearm is completely secure unless you actually weld it into the safe, if criminals want it they'll get it.

Peregrinus

Blay wrote: »

He had them stored in line with Garda regulations on the storage of firearms.

Yes, he did. And yet they were still stolen.

I'm not criticising him. I'm pointing out that the decision to possess a gun is a decision to accept the risk that, some day, your gun will end up in the hands of somebody who will use it to kill or injure someone. He's concerned now that the guns might be stolen from garda custody, whereas in fact they have actually been stolen from his custody. So he knows this risk exists, and on the evidence so far getting the guns back from the guards will not eliminate the risk.

wirehairmax

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, he did. And yet they were still stolen.

I'm not criticising him. I'm pointing out that the decision to possess a gun is a decision to accept the risk that, some day, your gun will end up in the hands of somebody who will use it to kill or injure someone. He's concerned now that the guns might be stolen from garda custody, whereas in fact they have actually been stolen from his custody. So he knows this risk exists, and on the evidence so far getting the guns back from the guards will not eliminate the risk.

Don't be a dick. If some lowlife knacker smashes their way into my house during the day while we are out working and takes my property and I've complied with the law regarding storage, then I've taken all reasonable precautions and am completely blameless as acknowledged by the Gardai by the fact that I've applied for new licences and renewed old ones since with no delay.
Anyway go back and read my earlier posts and you will see that that's not the issue. You have no right to call into question my right to safely possess firearms when you know zero about the logistics and specifics of my security measures within my home.
If you cannot comprehend and understand what I've written, then I suggest "after hours" is a more suitable forum for someone of your mental capabilities at this time.

Peregrinus

wirehairmax wrote: »

Don't be a dick. If some lowlife knacker smashes their way into my house during the day while we are out working and takes my property and I've complied with the law regarding storage, then I've taken all reasonable precautions and am completely blameless as acknowledged by the Gardai by the fact that I've applied for new licences and renewed old ones since with no delay.

I’m not being a dick, and I’ve already said that I am not criticising you. You have told us yourself that one of your concerns is the fear that a gun owned by you would end up in the hands of a criminal, and you have told us yourself that guns owned by you have been stolen from your house by criminals. I’m just connecting the dots; the risk you tell us that you wish to avoid cannot be avoided as long as you possess firearms, and your own experience tells you this. There are tensions between your competing objectives. You can achieve either one of them, but not both.

wirehairmax wrote: »

Anyway go back and read my earlier posts and you will see that that's not the issue.

I know. Your main concern is whether you can do anything to persuade the DPP to get his finger out, so that this matter gets resolved and you get your guns back. I addressed that issue in my first post.

wirehairmax wrote: »

You have no right to call into question my right to safely possess firearms when you know zero about the logistics and specifics of my security measures within my home.

Where have I called into question your right to possess firearms? I have pointed out that any firearms you possess might - clearly, in the light of the events which have already happened - end up in the hands of criminals, no matter how conscientious you are about securing them. But the only person who has expressed any worry about that risk is you, wirehairmax. Your concern about this does you credit, but you can’t turn your expression of concern into a call by me to restrict your ownership of firearms.

wirehairmax wrote: »

If you cannot comprehend and understand what I've written, then I suggest "after hours" is a more suitable forum for someone of your mental capabilities at this time.

If you think that I am questioning your right to possess firearms, it’s not my comprehension that’s in doubt, wirehairmax.

Holsten

More than likely you won't get anything until the case is finished.

You can request the stuff and make an application under the Police Property Act, 1897.

flowers345

Can you shoot the knacker if he re-enters your home?

Peregrinus

No, of course he can't. The Guards still have his guns.

Carawaystick

Gardaí in Balbriggan recovered cash stolen from a shop in Lusk a while ago.
The cash was then stolen from the cop shop in Balbriggan, and afaik, no one has been convicted of his theft.

The shopkeeper told an old lady, in the shop, queueing, "That money is gone"

No Pants

hullaballoo wrote: »

Given that the guns were recovered, I am unsure whether your insurance would be prepared to pay out anyway.

What is the likely insurance stance on this? The OP has been prevented from using his property now for two years, first by the thieves and now by the DPP.

pedroeibar1

Peregrinus wrote: »

That ship has sailed. If you keep guns in conditions such that they could be stolen - and we know you did this - then you expose yourself to this risk. You can’t blame the guards for that.
I understand your frustration. But, in the various factors which determine the DPP’s approach to this case, I’m afraid your desire to get your guns back comes fairly low down. I don’t know what might be holding up a decision about prosecution but, whatever it is, it’s not going to disappear when he receives a letter from you saying you want your guns back.

Peregrinus If your car was stolen and used in a crime, how would you feel about a two-year wait for its return?
I suggest you are nitpicking on an irrelevant part of this issue. For starters, the Gardai have issued recommendations on the storage of all firearms and that forms part of the licence application process (listed on the FCA1 form as ‘Have you complied with the requirements of the Firearm (Secure Accommodation) Order, 2009.?' A licence is issued on the basis of responses given, including the foregoing.

The OP clearly stated that he taken appropriate steps to comply with the Order (and a basic knowledge of the above would indicate that) so there is no issue with his standing as a firearms owner, particularly as a shotgun licence has been reissued to him. If the stolen firearms were politically sensitive (or, rather more politically sensitive than most firearms) he might have an issue unless the security arrangements were upgraded i.e. monitored alarm.

In his position I would insist on the insurer paying the claim; then I would have a word with the local firearms officer, explaining the position and saying that due to delays at the DPP’s office I was without my guns for the last 2 years, that there was no light at the end of the tunnel and that I would now apply for new licences on a ‘Substitution’ basis, stating that the old guns were in storage with the Gardai.

It is a pity the OP would appear not to be a member of either the NARGC or the CAI, who would provide considerable support/advice in this matter.

The sad thing is that gun owners are ‘muzzled’ and self-censored on public comment because they take great care about security and do not want their gun ownership to come into the public domain to minimise the threat of a break-in.

Peregrinus

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Peregrinus If your car was stolen and used in a crime, how would you feel about a two-year wait for its return?

Upset and annoyed. And I understand that the OP is upset and annoyed that his guns have been kept for so long.

But his question, remember, is whether there is anything he can do to make the DPP decide, one way or the other, on a prosecution so that either (a) if there is to be no prosecution, he can get his guns back immediately, or (b) if there is to be a prosecution, it can proceed and he can get his guns back at at the end of it.

And the answer, I’m afraid, is no, there isn’t a great deal he can do to accelerate the DPP’s decision-making process. Of all the factors that influence a decision on a prosecution, the desire of somebody to have the evidence returned to him comes fairly low down on the list.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

I suggest you are nitpicking on an irrelevant part of this issue. For starters, the Gardai have issued recommendations on the storage of all firearms and that forms part of the licence application process (listed on the FCA1 form as ‘Have you complied with the requirements of the Firearm (Secure Accommodation) Order, 2009.?' A licence is issued on the basis of responses given, including the foregoing.

The OP clearly stated that he taken appropriate steps to comply with the Order (and a basic knowledge of the above would indicate that) so there is no issue with his standing as a firearms owner, particularly as a shotgun licence has been reissued to him. If the stolen firearms were politically sensitive (or, rather more politically sensitive than most firearms) he might have an issue unless the security arrangements were upgraded i.e. monitored alarm.

I have said nothing critical about his security arrangements; I’m sure they were first rate. My point is that, no matter how good his security arrangements are, they cannot eliminate the risk he says he fears, that his guns will be stolen and used for criminal purposes. The events which have already happened show this, surely?

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

In his position I would insist on the insurer paying the claim . . .

I suspect I would, too. But he doesn’t want an insurance payout; he wants his guns back and, obviously, he can’t have both.