Memo from manager - job to take priority

purplecow1977

Without giving away too much information, a family member recently received the a memo equating to the following: particular days off cannot be requested in future - your job takes priority over social and private life.

So can the person not request a day off in June if they are going to a concert? Are they ALLOWED to do such a thing? Family member is v unhappy as the hours and shifts vary from week to week and as it is, hours are not known until the week before.

How are people meant to have a private life, or have nights out, or go to the cinema, or do an evening course, or have a weekend away, or even a midbreak away!

Any advice?

bbam

I've come across a few employers who prohibit holidays at particular times or insist they are taken at particular times.
It's allowed.

Sounds like the communication was a hash job but the message is allowed.

bulmersgal

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Without giving away too much information, a family member recently received the a memo equating to the following: particular days off cannot be requested in future - your job takes priority over social and private life.

So can the person not request a day off in June if they are going to a concert? Are they ALLOWED to do such a thing? Family member is v unhappy as the hours and shifts vary from week to week and as it is, hours are not known until the week before.

How are people meant to have a private life, or have nights out, or go to the cinema, or do an evening course, or have a weekend away, or even a midbreak away!

Any advice?

I work in accounts and am not allowed any time off for one week after our month end as it's extremely busy.

My mam works in retail and from mid November to mid January they are not allowed to book time off!

It's a pain but it's the nature of our jobs

smcgiff

Time off during normal working days are at the discretion of the employer. But there should be some flexibility if possible. But if your family member is needed during a certain time and a replacement cannot be found then...

stevemul

This may be a part time position in a pub or similar, where, in order to run a profitable business, the proprietor has to gear his staffing according to anticipated demand and therefore produces a "rota" for the next week.
When I was in this position and had a number of mostly young staff, I found it difficult to ensure I had a rota which was fair and efficient when I had staff coming to me and saying things like " I can't work next Saturday because I'm going to a party". My reply was " No, please go to the party organiser and say " I'm sorry, I cant come to your Party because I'm working"
This is the real world.

sparts

Yeah, employers can insist that A/L cannot be taken at certain times, however same rule would apply to all staff holding the same position/job title.

purplecow1977

It's a job in the hospitality industry so I can understand a written rule that states 'no holidays to be taken during July' or 'maximum 3 days holiday to be taken during August' as it's probably the busiest season, and maybe it's the tone of the memo that I find so unfair - to say that your job is more important than your personal life? How can that be? Surely your job is not more important than your personal life? What happens in the future if she has children, should she not have regular ish hours to know in advance for booking childminder etc? When I mean regular hours, I'm not talking 9-5, as I known that's not the nature of her job, but something like 1 week lates, 1 week early shifts on rotation would at least give her the option of knowing in advance what she can and can't do!

Thank you all for replies

purplecow1977

stevemul wrote: »

This may be a part time position in a pub or similar, where, in order to run a profitable business, the proprietor has to gear his staffing according to anticipated demand and therefore produces a "rota" for the next week.
When I was in this position and had a number of mostly young staff, I found it difficult to ensure I had a rota which was fair and efficient when I had staff coming to me and saying things like " I can't work next Saturday because I'm going to a party". My reply was " No, please go to the party organiser and say " I'm sorry, I cant come to your Party because I'm working"
This is the real world.

This isn't a part time job, nor is it in a pub. I do see your point though. She wouldn't be requesting time off willy nilly like that though, but has been told 'no' for an upcoming concert in July, even though tickets are already booked.

At times, she has also worked 10 days in a row, or worked a shift and gotten home at 11.30pm, gotten up again at 6.15am for work at 7am!

I feel sorry for her and her morale and I'm sure staff relations are quite low now.

Mrs OBumble

It's not good management practise, but not illegal either. Sounds like the manager may just have been frustrated with the number of people asking for specific days off.

What are the chances of her getting another job elsewhere? The only way to teach some employers manners is labour supply and demand.

Re the concert - are shift swaps allowed? She should start working on relationships with other staff who might cover for her.

purplecow1977

No chance of a job elsewhere at the moment as she has a mortgage to pay.

Regarding swap shifts, this is the problem - there is little cover available. Only person/people who could cover would either be working the alternative shift, or 'only works weekends' or is on their day off! She told me that last year, when someone called in sick, the person who had just started a 5 day holiday from work was called in as there was not sufficient cover.

I suppose I know it's not illegal but it seems so unfair and because she's 'younger' I feel she is being taken advantage of.

Stheno

It's very normal for leave to be restricted as to when it can be taken.

A lot of employers close between Christmas and New Year and insist staff take it off.

In my job, I get assigned to client work 90 days in advance, and so have to request holidays at least that much in advance so I don't get told "Sorry, you're on x site at that time"

Check out citizens information on the topic, even they say it is ok for the employer to specify appropriate holiday times that suit the needs of the business

Mrs OBumble

purplecow1977 wrote: »

...Only person/people who could cover would ... or is on their day off!...

I suppose I know it's not illegal but it seems so unfair and because she's 'younger' I feel she is being taken advantage of.

So swap days off with them. They work hers, she works theirs.

purplecow1977

Stheno wrote: »

It's very normal for leave to be restricted as to when it can be taken.

A lot of employers close between Christmas and New Year and insist staff take it off.

In my job, I get assigned to client work 90 days in advance, and so have to request holidays at least that much in advance so I don't get told "Sorry, you're on x site at that time"

Check out citizens information on the topic, even they say it is ok for the employer to specify appropriate holiday times that suit the needs of the business

yes specify times but there are no times specific!

She has only ever taken a week in May and November,nowhere near the summer busy season,but surely to take a day off for a concert 3 hours away shouldn't be declined. They could just use it as her day off!

Also,not always easy to swap as the person who is meant to be off would like to make their own plans.

I can't see why having a rolling rota on rotation wouldn't be feasible

the_syco

purplecow1977 wrote: »

At times, she has also worked 10 days in a row, or worked a shift and gotten home at 11.30pm, gotten up again at 6.15am for work at 7am!

Generally, the rules are;

• 11 hours daily rest in each 24 hour period. This means that there must be 11 hours between the time you finish work and the time you start again.
• 1 period of 24 hours rest per week preceded by a daily rest period of 11 hours. This means you must have one day off per week
• Rest breaks during work include 15 minutes after 4.5 hours have been worked; 30 minutes where up to 6 hours have been worked which may include the first break.

But I'm not 100% if they apply for the hospitality sector, although I'd be sure they would. TBH, if the manager wants them to be so flexible, there has to be some give, and not all take. Unfortunately, from what I know of some companies with the "hospitality" sector, sh|t hours are part and parcel of the industry

=-=

Oh, and have your relative check if they can bribe the other colleague. Have bribed my colleagues €20 or so to swap my shift with them before so I'd get the day off in the past.

purplecow1977

the_syco wrote: »

Generally, the rules are;

• 11 hours daily rest in each 24 hour period. This means that there must be 11 hours between the time you finish work and the time you start again.
• 1 period of 24 hours rest per week preceded by a daily rest period of 11 hours. This means you must have one day off per week
• Rest breaks during work include 15 minutes after 4.5 hours have been worked; 30 minutes where up to 6 hours have been worked which may include the first break.

But I'm not 100% if they apply for the hospitality sector, although I'd be sure they would. TBH, if the manager wants them to be so flexible, there has to be some give, and not all take. Unfortunately, from what I know of some companies with the "hospitality" sector, sh|t hours are part and parcel of the industry

=-=

Oh, and have your relative check if they can bribe the other colleague. Have bribed my colleagues €20 or so to swap my shift with them before so I'd get the day off in the past.

Looks like she 'broke' those rules re: working hours and rest days! However, you are probably quite right and this is probably unlikely to apply to the hospitality sector. :-( If I was in that industry, I would be so unhappy in such an environment.

A bribe could be an option I guess!

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

purplecow1977 wrote: »

No chance of a job elsewhere at the moment as she has a mortgage to pay.

Regarding swap shifts, this is the problem - there is little cover available. Only person/people who could cover would either be working the alternative shift, or 'only works weekends' or is on their day off! She told me that last year, when someone called in sick, the person who had just started a 5 day holiday from work was called in as there was not sufficient cover.

I suppose I know it's not illegal but it seems so unfair and because she's 'younger' I feel she is being taken advantage of.

Not 100% sure of the bold part. Is it job security you are worried about here? Sometimes moving jobs is the best thing you can do

purplecow1977

A move could be great,i agree,but I think its better to be unhappy in a job and managing to pay for a roof over your head than unemployed and struggling to make ends meet unfortunately

Stheno

purplecow1977 wrote: »

A move could be great,i agree,but I think its better to be unhappy in a job and managing to pay for a roof over your head than unemployed and struggling to make ends meet unfortunately

They could always actively look for a new job while in their current one?

No Pants

Did they make any mention of when you could take time off OP?

Cian92

stevemul wrote: »

This may be a part time position in a pub or similar, where, in order to run a profitable business, the proprietor has to gear his staffing according to anticipated demand and therefore produces a "rota" for the next week.
When I was in this position and had a number of mostly young staff, I found it difficult to ensure I had a rota which was fair and efficient when I had staff coming to me and saying things like " I can't work next Saturday because I'm going to a party". My reply was " No, please go to the party organiser and say " I'm sorry, I cant come to your Party because I'm working"
This is the real world.

Yes its the real world. If you can't work out a rota more than a week in advance. It should be expected that people won't drop everything because you have a few hours of work going.

purplecow1977

In something like a hotel, I don't see why a rota can't be done on a monthly basis. At least she'd know what evenings/days she might have free!!!

Ray Palmer

While there nothing stopping putting a holiday freeze in place you can't blanket ban all time off for a particular day of the week for ever more. The OP seems to be suggesting the manager has said you can't ask for any time off on particular days like a Saturday.

You can't do that. This isn't a special cut off time as it covers all weeks. If you put forward a time off they have to get back to you within the week. Now they can say no but if they are saying no for all days off on a particular day of the week they leave themselves open to a unfair employee practice.

What the law says doesn't really matter it is unreasonable stance for a employer to take. Very foolish to put it in writing as you would have had to prove it before now they have put it in writing there is a problem.

To expect people to be always be about for work is a plain silly. It is no way to treat an adult employee.

Personal I work to live not live to work.

Akrasia

I would seriously consider sending a copy of the memo to 'workplace relations' to see if it violates fair practice guidelines.
http://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/

It is clearly unreasonable for any employer to declare that they will not agree to allow an employee to arrange annual leave at a specified period in the future.

It's also a legal requirement that full time employees should be able to take 2 unbroken weeks of annual leave a year

And here's the relevant section of the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997

20.—(1) The times at which annual leave is granted to an employee shall be determined by his or her employer having regard to work requirements and subject—

(a) to the employer taking into account—

(i) the need for the employee to reconcile work and any family responsibilities,

(ii) the opportunities for rest and recreation available to the employee,

(b) to the employer having consulted the employee or the trade union (if any) of which he or she is a member, not later than 1 month before the day on which the annual leave or, as the case may be, the portion thereof concerned is due to commence, and

(c) to the leave being granted within the leave year to which it relates or, with the consent of the employee, within the 6 months thereafter.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0020/sec0020.html

The act states that the employer needs to give consideration to the needs of the employee and that the employee is entitled to have at least 1 month notice of annual leave. If the employer routinely cancels annual leave or refuses reasonable requests for annual leave, then it looks like they could be in breach of the above act.

purplecow1977

Thank you for that.
Im going to speak with her later and see if things have improved.

davo10

Ray Palmer wrote: »

While there nothing stopping putting a holiday freeze in place you can't blanket ban all time off for a particular day of the week for ever more. The OP seems to be suggesting the manager has said you can't ask for any time off on particular days like a Saturday.

You can't do that. This isn't a special cut off time as it covers all weeks. If you put forward a time off they have to get back to you within the week. Now they can say no but if they are saying no for all days off on a particular day of the week they leave themselves open to a unfair employee practice.

What the law says doesn't really matter it is unreasonable stance for a employer to take. Very foolish to put it in writing as you would have had to prove it before now they have put it in writing there is a problem.

To expect people to be always be about for work is a plain silly. It is no way to treat an adult employee.

Personal I work to live not live to work.

There isn't a blanket ban, if I'm reading OPs posts correctly, another employee had already booked A/L on that day and is therefore unable to swop shifts. Of course people are expected to be about for work, that's what a job is. If one employee is off on A/L, it's completely normal for employer to refuse leave to another member of staff. And employment law always matters in employment disputes.

Most employers require notice of A/L, typically 8 weeks in advance, if two employees apply for the same period it is usually given on a first come first serve or length of time employed basis. OP has posted that someone else is already off so that person obviously got her request in first. Saying job should come before personal/social life is different to saying it should come before family life. If going out socialising means more to you than your job, fair enough.

purplecow1977

Just to clarify:

She booked a day off in February for July (1 day!) and was told 'no'.
Her co-worker regularly requests particular shifts and days off. My relative doesn't. However, presumably because of this other person making constant requests, there is now a blanket ban according to the memo on anyone requesting a particular shift or day off.
It might not be so bad if they knew their hours in advance, but they don't. They only get the rota on a Friday for the following week. How can anyone organise anything outside of work when they might be working and now they're told they can't ask for a particular shift/day off? I know it must be very annoying if it's CONSTANTLY happening but from what I can understand, it doesn't happen every week or even every fortnight.

davo10

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Just to clarify:

She booked a day off in February for July (1 day!) and was told 'no'.
Her co-worker regularly requests particular shifts and days off. My relative doesn't. However, presumably because of this other person making constant requests, there is now a blanket ban according to the memo on anyone requesting a particular shift or day off.
It might not be so bad if they knew their hours in advance, but they don't. They only get the rota on a Friday for the following week. How can anyone organise anything outside of work when they might be working and now they're told they can't ask for a particular shift/day off? I know it must be very annoying if it's CONSTANTLY happening but from what I can understand, it doesn't happen every week or even every fortnight.

I know it's annoying but her colleague is entitled to apply for whatever days off she wants, she may not get them. The other person just got to that date first, regardless of how long ago your sister applied for it, she was second in line.

I worked in bars while in college, rotas were always put up on a Friday for the following week, that's the nature of the industry, high staff turnover/illness etc make long term rota planning difficult.

This situation happens to every employee at some time, I'm sure there are many noses out of joint about days off for Garth Brooks considering how many people wanted to go.