Turbo diesel oil in turbo petrol car?

Flaccus

Sister complaining about her engine been noisy and having to top up every couple months with oil. It's an Octavia vrs petrol which can take 5w30 or 5w40 vw spec oil. I discovered she has been putting 5w40 turbo diesel oil in. Since November all 4 litres have gone in. Think the sump is 5 litres. Engine is quite tappety for a few minutes when driving too. Will an oil change sort this out or could the engine be damaged. My understanding is diesel oil can withstand higher temps but is more viscious so harder to pump so more wear and tear if put in a petrol engine plus the detergent additives in diesel oil could impact the seals as well as the catalytic converter.

traco

I'd drain it and change filter, put in good quality oil as per the spec and hope for the best ASAP. I'm sure someone will be along with a more measured reply but modern engine oil spec seems very important nowadays.

toyotaavensis

What oil exactly is it?
Brand etc..

punisher5112

Hi these engines in the vag group are really picky about the oil they need and you should make sure that the correct oil is put in.

I have the VRs Petrol and it taps a bit when cold only for the 1st under 5 mins.

As said above get all that wrong oil out and change all filters, try and get her to check levels at least once a week and top up as needed.

These engines do drink oil so I wouldn't worry about having to top up but I would mind mine like a baby so check more then once a week and check tyres and that as frequent also.

Flaccus

Thanks.

This is the oil she put in
http://castroledge.com/oil-range/turbo-diesel-5w-40

3 litres back in nov. The remaining 1 litre a few weeks ago. The car does indeed drink it. And it's always been a little tappety for first few miles.
It's due a service now. She normally gets it serviced every 7k miles.

Will her mechanic be able to tell if any seals are gone or other possible damage (to cat)

This is the oil she would use normally
http://castroledge.com/oil-range/5w-30

toyotaavensis

If it was me I would change it. The oil burning might not be due to using the other oil though. You may have another issue.

Best thing to do is get it serviced with the right stuff and see how she is then.

punisher5112

What sort of mileage she do with wrong oil?

Does the car have high mileage?

If she and you believe it's noisey I would get it checked asap.

Flaccus

Car is 07. About 65000 miles on it. She has done 7.5 miles with wrong oil.

The car has drank oil since new (in 07). Mainly due to the oil sensor not working from day1 and she drove around for weeks with low oil (back in 09). Hence it's tappetty. Also FSI engines are known for drinking oil. The manual states up to 0.5litre per 1000 kilometres.

As regarding the current predicament. The car was serviced back in late September last year and the oil was changed for the correct 5w30 I linked to in my last post. Around late November the low oil light came on. She had done around 3k miles at this stage and the car took 2.5-3 litres (wrong oil). Which is roughly in line with the fuel consumption in the manual. Since then it's been tappety. 4.5k miles later (around 3 weeks ago) she put in the remaining 1 litre of same wrong oil to bring the dip stick up to max. I checked the dip stick and its not overfilled. No unusual smoke out of exhaust. No oil leaking anywhere. Just noisy engine (tappety) for a few miles. Seems it's consuming less of the diesel oil compared to petrol, about 4 litre over 7.5k miles which is about 0.32 litres per 1k km. So more worried about damage caused and if she will need a replacement engine as opposed to oil consumption.

Will get it serviced next week. Hope mechanic can spot signs of trouble.

punisher5112

Hopefully she hasn't damaged it but would be best get a mechanic check it over as they do like their oil.

Your right with the FSi drinking there are a few not many who seem to get away without topping up as much but mine would be similar and have put just over 120,000 miles on it and she is flying. The only thing I need to do is top up Air/Con.

Has the timing belt been changed yet?

Flaccus

No belt done. Rang skoda, main dealer, and consulted with mechanic who checked his system. Even though in the UK they are recommending belts at 40k miles or 4 years which ever comes first. The belt here on the 07 vrs does NOT need to be done until 100k km. It's in the manual and Skoda Ireland stand by it. Having said that she will likely get it done before 70k miles. Mechanic did inspect what he could of the belt at last service and clean as a whistle. She never got her brake fluid changed though and that's supposed to be done every 2 years. Was done 3 years ago. Oh. and here air con needs doing, although it is noisy (lots of ticking noises). Not going to spend big bucks if the condenser is on the way out though. Just a refill and that's it.

punisher5112

Flaccus wrote: »

No belt done. Rang skoda, main dealer, and consulted with mechanic who checked his system. Even though in the UK they are recommending belts at 40k miles or 4 years which ever comes first. The belt on the 07 vrs does NOT need to be done until 100k km. It's in the manual and Skoda Ireland stand by it. Having said that she will likely get it done before 70k miles. Mechanic did inspect what he could of the belt at last service and clean as a whistle. She never got her brake fluid changed though and that's supposed to be done every 2 years. Was done 3 years ago.

Yes but 70k miles would be over the 100k kilometers
Is it a UK import?

Flaccus

Sorry. Typo. Just checked page 8 of service manual. Toothed camshaft belt changed at 180k km on 2.0 FSI engine.
It was bought locally from new.

punisher5112

Oh well thats grand then was just thinking of maybe that been the noise problem also because there are a few over the last while have said their belts snapped recently.Not on Octavia other makes but just something that you don't want to go.

Well hopefully a full service and a check over will solve the noise best of luck.
Let us know the outcome.

Flaccus

Will do. Last thing I want is to become her personal taxi now

I'm guessing mechanic can check seals and not much else.

greasepalm

if i may try mobil esp 5w-30 its a great oil and can be used in petrol or diesel,even the taxis are starting to use it.

Flaccus

Thanks. Will look into it for her.

visual

Diesel oil will work fine in a petrol engine
in fact there is oils sold that list they are suitable for both petrol and diesel

diesel oils have more cleaning agents to cope with the sooth that diesel produce and caught in the oil. In petrol engine it wont do any harm.

Other than the recommended amount oil these engines burn. You have either a leak or engine turbo problem.

Changing to recommend oil is a requirement that needs to be done but its not going to magically fix a damaged engine.

Is there much smoke at start up or under acceleration ?

Flaccus

Thanks. No unusual levels of smoke. I've seen a car burning oil before. NCT'd in January actually and no problem with emmissions. Very very low in fact. No leaks unless a seal is gone since last Nov. Turbo is fine.

My concern was with potential damage as the zinc and detergents in diesel oil according to one site are supposed to be detrimental to the catalytic converter and seals on petrol engines which have no where near as much soot so as a result are more exposed to these agents. Also the higher viscosity of diesel oil will cause it to take longer to lubricate engine parts in a petrol engine, hence cause more wear. Probably explains the increase in the tappeting. The oil that was put into it was 5w40 turbo diesel and not a dual purpose oil, hence the worry.

You say I have a problem with the amount of oil being used, hence a damaged engine (turbo or leak) ?
It's in adherence with the manual. 0.5l per 1k km and any Octavia fsi owner I know says their car uses a fair bit of oil. In fact this car has been heavy on oil for as long as I can remember. It was serviced last Nov and mechanic did comment to her on it being slightly tappety but I explained already it was run low on oil for a few weeks back in 09 (oil sensor broken) so possibly slight damage done. However oil consumption has remained the same since. Hopefully it does not have an issue.

visual

Flaccus wrote: »

Thanks. No smoke. No leaks unless a seal is gone since last Nov. Turbo is fine.
My concern was with potential damage as the zinc and detergents in diesel oil according to one site are supposed to be detrimental to the catalytic converter and seals on petrol engines which have no where near as much soot.

Why do you say I have a problem with the amount of oil being used ?
It's in adherence with the manual. 0.5l per 1k km and any Octavia fsi owner I know says their car uses a fair bit of oil. In fact this car has been heavy on oil for as long as I can remember.

Oil manufacturers have a lot of money invested and will print and state anything to encourage you use their oil.

Diesel oil won't harm the seals and diesel engines also have a CAT, good motor way spin will allow CAT work at optimum temperature so I wouldn't be over concerned on that score.

If the car is only using the 1/2 liter (or 1 liter) between services then all good but the amount stated seems very high. It would suggest that something is worn like piston rings or valve seals. If the oil isnt leaking out on ground then the engine is burning it. If its burning too much oil the CAT will be working harder and not last as lomg as expected.

I would be more concerned about the oil usage than the type and although you will change oil to correct oil I doubt it will change the amount of oil the engine is using up.

The VW diesel is also a oil guzzler not sure why but they are like that from new.

Flaccus

The manual specifically states "depending on driving style your engine can use 0.5 litres per 1000 kilometres"
Since last November that car has been using 0.32 litres per 1000 kilometres so within specification.

I do agree it is pretty high consumption but I have colleagues with fsi engines that use the same amount of oil.
Nothing she does can change this now.

I do suspect you are right though and there is likely some wear to the piston rings or valve seals, as the engine became tappety when she had almost no oil in it for 3 weeks (very low mileage, about 300 miles done) and the sensor never came on. That was back in 09. Mechanic even asked her if she drove with very little oil and commented on the tappet noise. So this may have contributed to the oil consumption being higher than expected. I remember she even went back to the garage and they got her to monitor the consumption over a year and it was then that they pointed out it was within specification.

Since she started putting in the wrong oil the engine seems more tappet. However this goes away after 5 or 6 miles. Maybe this oil just takes longer to lubricate.

She says she will keep the car for 2 more years and change then so if the CAT lasts that long she will be happy.

Thanks for putting our minds at ease about the diesel oil. For last month she has been doing approx. 70 miles per day.

Del2005

visual wrote: »

Oil manufacturers have a lot of money invested and will print and state anything to encourage you use their oil.

Diesel oil won't harm the seals and diesel engines also have a CAT, good motor way spin will allow CAT work at optimum temperature so I wouldn't be over concerned on that score.

If the car is only using the 1/2 liter (or 1 liter) between services then all good but the amount stated seems very high. It would suggest that something is worn like piston rings or valve seals. If the oil isnt leaking out on ground then the engine is burning it. If its burning too much oil the CAT will be working harder and not last as lomg as expected.

I would be more concerned about the oil usage than the type and although you will change oil to correct oil I doubt it will change the amount of oil the engine is using up.

The VW diesel is also a oil guzzler not sure why but they are like that from new.

Most manufacturers won't look at a car unless it's burning more than 1l per 1000km. VW have a lower limit and even that isn't being exceeded.

cabledude

OP. Who put this oil in her engine? You say that there was 3L put in a while back and that since your sister herself has topped it up by a further 1L. So,who put the original 3L in?

If it was a gaage/mechanic and there has been damage done to the seals or Cat, she may have some comeback.

greasepalm

many of the times looking in boot of cars i see the customers buying wrong type of oil but i give them a sticker to check its the same when buying more,people think oil is oil and can get away with topping it up all the time forgetting the oil and filter change.

Flaccus

She put the oil in herself. It used up fair bit of oil over a 3 month period from doing a lot of heavy daily driving, and one day the oil light came on (she should have been checking it regularly I know). When is happened she drove straight to Halfords and bought a 4 litre drum. She told me the dipstick showed above min. but it took almost 3 litres to bring it back to max. Told her to check oil regularly....that was back in late Nov. Been checking it weekly and only 3 weeks ago it dropped below the half way point so she topped up with almost the remaining litre. Clearing out her boot I noticed it was the wrong oil yesterday!!

greasepalm

no car yet have i seen min-max taking 3 litres so i would ask does she know what she was looking at on dipstick? ask her to pull it out and show you,the dipstick i mean:eek::rolleyes::)

cabledude

Flaccus wrote: »

She put the oil in herself. It used up fair bit of oil over a 3 month period from doing a lot of heavy daily driving, and one day the oil light came on (she should have been checking it regularly I know). When is happened she drove straight to Halfords and bought a 4 litre drum. She told me the dipstick showed above min. but it took almost 3 litres to bring it back to max. Told her to check oil regularly....that was back in late Nov. Been checking it weekly and only 3 weeks ago it dropped below the half way point so she topped up with almost the remaining litre. Clearing out her boot I noticed it was the wrong oil yesterday!!

A teaspoon of holy water in there may help!! :eek:

Interslice

Flaccus wrote: »

It's an Octavia vrs petrol which can take 5w30 or 5w40 vw spec oil.

That's the grade. the spec will be vw505 01 or similar and is more important to get right than the grade. Should be in the manual what spec you need.

That turbo diesel oil you put in is VW 502 00/ 505 00/ 505 01,
500- 504 are petrol specs and 505+ are the diesel ones so it only meets 502 specs for a petrol.

Popoutman

The PD TDi engines are extremely particular about the grade of oil, purely because of the pressures on the camshaft at the injector lobe. That's one of th etimes when you*have* to get the right grade oil or you will eventually have problems.

Generic diesel oil in an ordinary petrol engine should have not ill effects. However if the engine requires a particular manufacturer's specification oil, then you have to be more careful.

ShaunieVW

If its a higher mileage 1.8t they will burn oil if the incorrect oil is used. Id move up to a 10w-40 to give it a bit more viscosity. You should never mix oil so make sure the oil is dropped from the sump and new filter.

Flaccus

Yes, the mechanic actually recommended to move away from 5w30 to 10w40 for that reason and that's what's going into the car next week. He is confident there would be no damage done.

And to the poster who says they never saw a car take 3 litres.....I have.....from min to max on my car on the dip stick is almost 3 litres.

greasepalm

would have said 1-1 1/2 liters from min to max and no way 3 litres.

http://www.mobil.co.uk/UK-English-LCW/carengineoils_which-oil.aspx

capacity says 3.5 litres for a 1.8 vrs.

no way would i use 10w40 unless you want turbos to go,they have to use 5w30.

Flaccus

greasepalm - it's an 07 vrs...they have the 2.0 FSI engine and have an oil capacity of 4.7 litres...it's 3 litres or just under from min to max on the dipstick.

jca

Flaccus wrote: »

greasepalm - it's an 07 vrs...they have the 2.0 FSI engine and have an oil capacity of 4.7 litres...it's 3 litres or just under from min to max on the dipstick.

Only 1.7 litres left when on minimum jeez that's cutting it fine..

walus

I think there is nothing you can do to sort out the noise and oil consumption in that engine. Changing oil is never bad but at this stage the engine is in bad condition and only rebuild would help.

Flaccus

Am confused...a rebuild because it consumes .32litres oil per 1000km and is tappety ?? Skoda have said in the manual that it can consume up to 1litre oil per 1000km. Therefore it is within specification. I don't see how this qualifies as bad condition but maybe I am wrong.


In any case it was looked at today and had the oil changed. Mechanic said no leaks, no unusual smoke. It's tappety which he does put down to driving with low oil some years ago, and has never been the quietest car from new anyway. However after driving for about 10 minutes the noise dies down significantly. It's also getting around 40mpg on long runs, has very good emmissions. Should last another 2 years.

jca

This stuff gets great reviews. http://www.halfords.ie/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_11101_catalogId_15551_productId_203145_langId_-1_categoryId_212351
Might be worth a try.

greasepalm

when looking into engine with oil cap removed how clean dirty is it? as if very dirty oil ways maybe blocked and takes oil longer to get to tappets.

ShaunieVW

Didnt realise this was a mk2 vrs, The cam followers need to be changed on these quite regularly. Well known issue with them. It can cause the car to sound tappety and like a diesel when worn. I would definitely recommend changing it. That may solve your tappety sound.

greasepalm

expensive job?

ShaunieVW

I have never done it myself but it doesnt look to difficult. EDIT: Much simplier than I thought here is a DIY guide. Its for an a3 but its the same engine.

http://bd8ba3c866c8cbc330ab-7b26c6f3e01bf511d4da3315c66902d6.r6.cf1.rackcdn.com/FSI_Cam_Follower_Install.pdf

Flaccus

greasepalm wrote: »

when looking into engine with oil cap removed how clean dirty is it? as if very dirty oil ways maybe blocked and takes oil longer to get to tappets.

looks pretty clean to me. now anyway since it got changed today

walus

Flaccus wrote: »

Am confused...a rebuild because it consumes .32litres oil per 1000km and is tappety ?? Skoda have said in the manual that it can consume up to 1litre oil per 1000km. Therefore it is within specification. I don't see how this qualifies as bad condition but maybe I am wrong.


In any case it was looked at today and had the oil changed. Mechanic said no leaks, no unusual smoke. It's tappety which he does put down to driving with low oil some years ago, and has never been the quietest car from new anyway. However after driving for about 10 minutes the noise dies down significantly. It's also getting around 40mpg on long runs, has very good emmissions. Should last another 2 years.

Any decent mechanic would tell you that engine that consumes so much oil has an issue. All the manufacturers state that an oil consumption of up to 1l per 1000 kilometers is ok - they do that to cover for potential warranty liabilities only, but it is not normal. All the residues from burnt oil must lodge somewhere and most time they end up clogging catalytic converters. At your rate of 0.32l/1000km you are adding 3.2l of oil every 10k kilometers which means swapping nearly 70% of the entire sump oil capacity it can't be right. Driving in low oil is always bad for the engine and causes permanent damage to vital engine parts. Sometimes, if it is not the engine design issue, using an engine flush frequently can dislodge the oil and carbon deposits in around piston rings thus reducing the oil consumption. It also helps cleaning the engine from a the gunk that might have blocked lubrication channels. This in turn should improve oil lubrication altogether and make the engine smoother. I would start with that as it is most inexpensive way of trying to reduce the oil consumption.