DOE - Private Individual

Gumbo

Guys can I doe a commercial van?
I am a PAYE employee and have no commercial use of the van other than personal use.

People telling me I need PPS numbers etc and is this ok to give?

corktina

by DOE you mean the Test ? (It's CVRT now...)

Yes of course you can, but taxing it is a little more difficult. You will need to sign a declaration that you will only use it for commercial purposes, unless you have a VAT number. Some people fill in their PPS number I the VAT No space.Not sure if this will work though

If you are using it privately, you will have to tax it private too. But you can still CVRT (DoE) it.

CiniO

Not only op can doe (cvrt) it, but he will have to

In relation to motortax office requiring declaration of "business use only" and asking for vat number both have no grounds in law. In my opinion typical irish cowboy office requiring something just completely out of the blue.
No law here requiring to be vat registered to be able to tax goods vehicle for comercial purposes, neither law saying that vehicles taxed comercially can be used solely for business purposes.

corktina

CiniO wrote: »

Not only op can doe (cvrt) it, but he will have to

In relation to motortax office requiring declaration of "business use only" and asking for vat number both have no grounds in law. Typical irish cowboy office requiring something just completely out of the blue.
No law here requiring to be vat registered to be able to tax goods vehicle for comercial purposes, neither law saying that vehicles taxed comercially can be used solely for business purposes.

I'm not so sure. There is such a thing as precedent and I'm sure someone somewhere got prosecuted for using a goods vehicle privately. It has always been the case since before Indendence afaik that Commercial Tax is a concession for goods only vehicle. It isn't a concession for goods and going to the shops use...

Tested in Court, I think that a proesecution would succeed...but I'm not a Lawyer, so it's only an opinion

corktina

corktina wrote: »

I'm not so sure. There is such a thing as precedent and I'm sure someone somewhere got prosecuted for using a goods vehicle privately. It has always been the case since before Indendence afaik that Commercial Tax is a concession for goods only vehicle. It isn't a concession for goods and going to the shops use...

Tested in Court, I think that a proesecution would succeed...but I'm not a Lawyer, so it's only an opinion

As it stands though you would be a fool to pay private tax on a commercial and cost yourself money for nothing.

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

I'm not so sure. There is such a thing as precedent and I'm sure someone somewhere got prosecuted for using a goods vehicle privately. It has always been the case since before Indendence afaik that Commercial Tax is a concession for goods only vehicle. It isn't a concession for goods and going to the shops use...

Tested in Court, I think that a proesecution would succeed...but I'm not a Lawyer, so it's only an opinion

I'm also not a Lawyer, but simple reading of appropriate regulations show something like that:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0009/print.html

This is a definiton what can be taxed as goods vehicle (what we call commercial tax).

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business (including agriculture and the performance by a local or public authority of its functions) and vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement by or in which goods being conveyed by such vehicles are processed or manufactured while the vehicles are in motion

It clearly states what kind of vehilces can be taxed under that category and what they need to be used for to be taxed under this category.
However what it doesnt' say is fact that those vehicles need to be solely used for that purpose.

To compare, other categories have such limtiations. Fe.

(a) any vehicle which is used as a hearse and for no other purpose,

€102

(b) any vehicle (excluding a taxi) which is used as a small public service vehicle within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and for no other purpose,

€95

(c) any vehicle which is fitted with a taximeter and is lawfully used as a street service vehicle within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and for purposes incidental to such use and for no other purpose,

This IMO clearly indicates, that whoever wrote this law, his intention was to limit use of vehicles taxed as hearses, taxis, hackneys, etc... only to their primary use, but he didn't limit use of goods vehicles only for business use.

Obviously that's only my understanding of it, but if they wanted goods vehicles taxed as goods vehicles to be used only for business purposes, why wouldn't they write it down same as by other categories?

corktina

I think your interpretation might be different from a Judges. It clearly says "used for the conveyance of goods "etc It does not say used for the conveyance of goods AND miscellaneous private use. It's a reduced rate concession, why would they allow you to use it privately as well?

corktina

corktina wrote: »

why would they allow you to use it privately as well?

Because its totally impracticable to enforce a goods only rule.

In my opinion the tax rate should be set by the vehicle type not the use. This is how I thought it worked until very recently as I never heard of anyone taxing a van, commercial jeep etc privately except small engined carvans when the no nct no doe loophole was active.

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

I think your interpretation might be different from a Judges. It clearly says "used for the conveyance of goods "etc It does not say used for the conveyance of goods AND miscellaneous private use. It's a reduced rate concession, why would they allow you to use it privately as well?

Why then do they explicitly specify in other categories "and for no other purposes" while they don't specify it in goods vehicles category?

IMO this leaves grounds for interpretation, that while surely "convoyence of goods for business purpose" must be the main one, but it doesn't exclude other uses (f.e. occasional private use).

corktina

It's your interpretation, but it has always been the case that you aren't supposed to use a goods-taxed vehicle privately (never stopped me, but still...)

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

It's your interpretation, but it has always been the case that you aren't supposed to use a goods-taxed vehicle privately (never stopped me, but still...)

Always been the case?
But who said that?
If there is no clear grounds in law for that, then it couldn't be the case.
It could have been urban myth or something, same as stuff like "ahh sure you'll need 4x4 to tow 2 axle trailer".... Doesn't mean it's true.

As I said - I'm not a lawyer, neither you are.
Law is not exaclty clear here, so it leaves some room for interpretation, and fact that in other categories it's clearly mentioned that those vehicles can't be used for any other purpose, while on goods vehicle it doesn't say that, leans it towards interpretation that goods vehicles can be used for other purposes occasionally.

corktina

You are entitled to your opinion, but you shouldn't be telling people that it is a fact when it hasn't been tested. You should qualify info given by saying it is your opinion. see post 4

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion, but you shouldn't be telling people that it is a fact when it hasn't been tested. You should qualify info given by saying it is your opinion. see post 4

I included "IMO" in every post I present my opinion

Have you got any links for any judgements where people were prosecuted for using goods vehicle taxed commercially also for private purposes?
Has it ever happend to anyone in Ireland?

corktina

CiniO wrote: »

Not only op can doe (cvrt) it, but he will have to

In relation to motortax office requiring declaration of "business use only" and asking for vat number both have no grounds in law. Typical irish cowboy office requiring something just completely out of the blue.
No law here requiring to be vat registered to be able to tax goods vehicle for comercial purposes, neither law saying that vehicles taxed comercially can be used solely for business purposes.

where does it say IMO ?

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

where does it say IMO ?

This doesn't say "IMO" because it's not my opinion.
These are facts.


No law here requiring to be vat registered to be able to tax goods vehicle for comercial purposes, neither law saying that vehicles taxed comercially can be used solely for business purposes.

If you can point out the law which says that VAT numer is required to be able to tax vehicle comercially, or if you can point out the law which says that commercially taxed vehicles can be used solely for business purpose, then I'll edit it and apologise for giving incorrect information.

But you won't find such laws, as they don't exist, therefore what I said above were facts, not opinions.

Obviously interpretation of existing laws is other thing, and we can discuss if fact that law doesn't explicitly specify "and for no other purposes" means it can or can not be used for other purposes. And that's what we did in next posts where I always included IMO.
But law itself, doesn't say that it must be "for no other purpose", that's why what I said in mentioned posts were facts, not opinons.

corktina

"Typical irish cowboy office requiring something just completely out of the blue. " is an opinion, as is assuming the law means a particular thing because it omits the word solely

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

"Typical irish cowboy office requiring something just completely out of the blue. " is an opinion, as is assuming the law means a particular thing because it omits the word solely

I must agree with that.
Post #3 edited

corktina

Even though we may disagree, you are a Gentleman as ever :-)