Conflicting tax info

yer man!

So I stopped using my car in jan when the tax expired and have just sold it this week, when I was getting a replacement logbook in the tax office they mentioned that I need to pay February and March tax arrears for the new driver as the car wasn't declared off the road. Is this correct? I thought that when a new owner had the car they weren't liable for back tax...? Citizens information also says this but the dept of transport website says something different.

AltAccount

yer man! wrote: »

So I stopped using my car in jan when the tax expired and have just sold it this week, when I was getting a replacement logbook in the tax office they mentioned that I need to pay February and March tax arrears for the new driver as the car wasn't declared off the road. Is this correct? I thought that when a new owner had the car they weren't liable for back tax...? Citizens information also says this but the dept of transport website says something different.

But you didn't declare it off the road, so you'd be liable for the tax.

corktina

No, as things stand if you sell your car the arrears just disappear. You aren't liable OP and nor is the buyer.

CiniO

yer man! wrote: »

So I stopped using my car in jan when the tax expired and have just sold it this week, when I was getting a replacement logbook in the tax office they mentioned that I need to pay February and March tax arrears for the new driver as the car wasn't declared off the road. Is this correct? I thought that when a new owner had the car they weren't liable for back tax...? Citizens information also says this but the dept of transport website says something different.

As corktina says - you are not liable for tax.
If you let the tax lapse and don't declare car off the road, then you only become liable for arrears if you go to tax the car again in the future.
If you are never going to tax it again yourself (fe. sell it, scrap it, export it, etc) then you never become liable for arrears.

AltAccount

Interesting loophole!

Apologies for wrong advice

Fred Swanson

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mooseknunkle

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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What can they do?,its not uncommon for one family member to sell their car to another family member then change their mind and sell it back,a lot of this went on long before they brought in the new system.

corktina

What can they do? Well, in the UK if your car isn't taxed and isn't SORNd, you get a fine in the post.

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

What can they do? Well, in the UK if your car isn't taxed and isn't SORNd, you get a fine in the post.

I suppose problem here is a huge amount of ghost cars, which are still in their database, but don't exist anymore.
For years, plenty of people never bothered to scrap vehicles properly with adequate paperwork, making car disappear, and still be liable for tax.
Also exported cars are not deregistered here.

I'm sure there is plenty people who still have a car registered on their name. Car was last used 15 years ago, and doesn't exist since.

So how can they start posting fines to those people for cars which don't exist anymore?

mooseknunkle

corktina wrote: »

What can they do? Well, in the UK if your car isn't taxed and isn't SORNd, you get a fine in the post.

Do you get an email notification every time theres a tax related thread started?

corktina

mooseknunkle wrote: »

Do you get an email notification every time theres a tax related thread started?

No but I have an "ignore user " button

corktina

CiniO wrote: »

I suppose problem here is a huge amount of ghost cars, which are still in their database, but don't exist anymore.
For years, plenty of people never bothered to scrap vehicles properly with adequate paperwork, making car disappear, and still be liable for tax.
Also exported cars are not deregistered here.

I'm sure there is plenty people who still have a car registered on their name. Car was last used 15 years ago, and doesn't exist since.

So how can they start posting fines to those people for cars which don't exist anymore?

In the UK they simply counted all cars in that category as a special case. It's only cars that become untaxed after the introduction of the system they look at.

mooseknunkle

corktina wrote: »

No but I have an "ignore user " button

I think we all do,its just you seem to get really bothered when people dont pay tax you shouldn't let it worry you so much theres more to life

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

In the UK they simply counted all cars in that category as a special case. It's only cars that become untaxed after the introduction of the system they look at.

Yea.. That's possible but should have been done when new system was introduced...

IMO new system is nonsense anyway. It's botched copy of UK system.
Unnecessery complication. They should have scrapped all declarations (in advance and retrospective) and just leave two options. Car is taxed or not taxed. And start issuing heavy fines for driving untaxed car.
That would be way simpler, and would work much better than current system.

Fred Swanson

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corktina

CiniO wrote: »

Yea.. That's possible but should have been done when new system was introduced...

IMO new system is nonsense anyway. It's botched copy of UK system.
Unnecessery complication. They should have scrapped all declarations (in advance and retrospective) and just leave two options. Car is taxed or not taxed. And start issuing heavy fines for driving untaxed car.
That would be way simpler, and would work much better than current system.

Absolutely. It's a Pigs Ear of a system. I think you need to have the declaration rather than just fining for an untaxed car as some cars are genuinely laid up

CiniO

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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What about them?
If car is not used, it can be untaxed.
Where do you see the problem?

corktina

CiniO wrote: »

What about them?
If car is not used, it can be untaxed.
Where do you see the problem?

The problem with your method of fining heavily if caught driving an untaxed car is the actual catching bit. The UK system is cut and dried....No Tax, No SORN = fine in the post. They don't need to catch you

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

The problem with your method of fining heavily if caught driving an untaxed car is the actual catching bit. The UK system is cut and dried....No Tax, No SORN = fine in the post. They don't need to catch you

What if you SORN and drive.
They do need to catch you then...

corktina

they have a credible ANPR system..they don't need to STOP you

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

Absolutely. It's a Pigs Ear of a system. I think you need to have the declaration rather than just fining for an untaxed car as some cars are genuinely laid up

I meant not to fine anyone for untaxed car, unless he is caught driving.

corktina

I know that

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

they have a credible ANPR system..they don't need to STOP you

And this ANPR makes their system effective.
Without, no matter if declarations exist or not, it won't be effective.
As if there is no detection, anyone car drive a car, whether it will be "untaxed car" in system without any declaration, or "SORNed car" in system with declarations.

corktina

The guys who will flout the law will do anyway, but the UK system is a real deterrent to the more law-abiding citizens. The Irish system has loopholes big enough to drive a horse and cart through, whether through incompetence or design I don't know,

CiniO

corktina wrote: »

The guys who will flout the law will do anyway, but the UK system is a real deterrent to the more law-abiding citizens. The Irish system has loopholes big enough to drive a horse and cart through, whether through incompetence or design I don't know,

I wouldn't agree that system in which you have to declare non-use of vehicle in advance or pay the fine is deterrent to law-abiding citizens.
It really should be as simple as two options.
Vehicle taxed - you drive.
Vehicle untaxed - you don't drive, and if you do, you get fined.
That's really simple and effective solution.

djimi

CiniO wrote: »

What if you SORN and drive.
They do need to catch you then...

Make the punishment sufficiently severe as to actually deter people, ie

First offense: €2500 fine
Second offense: €5000 fine plus lose license for 12 months
Third offense: mandatory jail sentence

People chance their arm now because the consequences are less severe than actually paying the tax. Change that and compliance will become widespread.

CiniO

djimi wrote: »

Make the punishment sufficiently severe as to actually deter people, ie

First offense: €2500 fine
Second offense: €5000 fine plus lose license for 12 months
Third offense: mandatory jail sentence

People chance their arm now because the consequences are less severe than actually paying the tax. Change that and compliance will become widespread.

Yes. I fully agree with that.
My point though was that SORN / SORD is unnecessery complication.
Scrapping all declaration systems, and just issuing fines you mentioned for driving untaxed car, would have exact the same effect on people trying to avoid tax, yet would be much simpler to administer, and much more convenient for people who genuinely want to put their cars off the road.

corktina

It is the case in the UK now that you have to have your car insured too as well as taxed if it isn't SORNd with the object of reducing uninsured drivers. I don't think the MoT is ncluded in that regime but the Cops there have access to tax/insurance and test data as well as license info and we need this level of enforcement here

No Pants

djimi wrote: »

Second offense: €5000 fine plus lose license for 12 months

Seize car and sell/crush it.

200motels

djimi wrote: »

Make the punishment sufficiently severe as to actually deter people, ie

First offense: €2500 fine
Second offense: €5000 fine plus lose license for 12 months
Third offense: mandatory jail sentence

People chance their arm now because the consequences are less severe than actually paying the tax. Change that and compliance will become widespread.

That's a bit harsh, jail for not paying motor tax, your having a laugh and bankers and politicians who messed up this country are walking around scot free.

corktina

No comparison. People should respect our Law

whomitconcerns

200motels wrote: »

That's a bit harsh, jail for not paying motor tax, your having a laugh and bankers and politicians who messed up this country are walking around scot free.

And that old chestnut has what to do with motor tax? It will be the excuse people give for murder next!

djimi

200motels wrote: »

That's a bit harsh, jail for not paying motor tax, your having a laugh and bankers and politicians who messed up this country are walking around scot free.

Its jail for fraud, not failure to pay tax. Its one thing driving a car around that is not taxed, its another thing entirely to legally declare it off the road and continue to drive it around.

djimi

No Pants wrote: »

Seize car and sell/crush it.

Unfortunately not a deterrent for low value cars. Too many people would just walk away from the car and not give a toss. At least a personal fine hits them hard regardless.

Fred Swanson

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No Pants

djimi wrote: »

Unfortunately not a deterrent for low value cars. Too many people would just walk away from the car and not give a toss. At least a personal fine hits them hard regardless.

Sorry, I meant that as well as, not instead of.