45% Turnout ASTI Ballot

MrJones1973

Firstly a ballot is a ballot. We dont query local election results because only 50% 0t people on average vote. But 45% is disappointing.It shows

1. A good third of ASTI voters consistently tend not to vote ie its below 66% most ballots. Sure some didn't vote this time who did last time but there are members who probably never vote.
2. Member are sick of ballots and probably know we will cave in.
3. A certain percentage of teachers -despite having a degree are just a bit thick when it comes to union politics. They dont like to upset anyone and belive in Mr Quinn. BTW-he recently thought video cameras in Classes were a good idea

I said I would quit if HR passed but Held on because I fooled myself into thinking JC ballot might finally e the straw etc but I realized Im just plain delusional. 45% turnout says it all.
My year as school steward ends May 10th. Im branch secretary too but I will be gone by June.

My advice-study up on JC -we will be assessing our own pupils . Reduce your workloaad before this ie give up voluntary work. The cave in will happen. Radicals in the union are a minority

Boober Fraggle

Where did you get that information? I've been looking and can't even find the results of TUI V ASTI

seavill

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

3. A certain percentage of teachers -despite having a degree are just a bit thick when it comes to union politics. They dont like to upset anyone and belive in Mr Quinn. BTW-he recently thought video cameras in Classes were a good idea

This is really a poor attitude to have towards people. We are the ones teaching our kids about respect and dignity yet this is the attitude towards those that you don't agree with?

regardless of whether you agree with them or not people are entitled to their opinion on all ballots. Some will vote yes some will vote no, that is their right. Just because they don't agree with your view does not make them "thick" or lacking in knowledge. It means they have an opinion.

Also in relation to the turn out yes its very poor to see that few people voting, but just as it is everyone right to have a vote, it is also their right if they choose to do so, not to vote. That is their choice. I don't necessarily agree with that choice but that's that.

Just for the record I did vote and voted against the new JC but even so, I respect other people's opinions and choices.

This happens regularly here that those in the minority are slagged off for going against the grain. Called numerous things for not agreeing with the masses but we have to respect their choice, maybe they really believe in their side of the argument. Again we are the ones supposed to be setting the example in terms of tolerance and respect.

endakenny

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Firstly a ballot is a ballot. We dont query local election results because only 50% 0t people on average vote. But 45% is disappointing.It shows

1. A good third of ASTI voters consistently tend not to vote ie its below 66% most ballots. Sure some didn't vote this time who did last time but there are members who probably never vote.

Is it any wonder that respect for teachers has decreased in the recent past? Many of them don't care about their own profession.

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

2. Member are sick of ballots and probably know we will cave in.

So they might be balloted again. Putting the mark beside "No" on a ballot paper cannot possibly consume that much energy, even if they have to do it more than once.

evolving_doors

This 45% is a red herring. Same as the 10% drop out rate ...it has no bearing on what is going on. The fact is the vote has been cast so lets move on. We could be shooting the breeze untill the cows come home about why people dont vote...
I heard claire byrne trying to use it as another teacher bashing stick yesterday... Seeing as how its not about teachers pay or pensions they are just trying to taint the whole JC arguement with irrelevant distractions.

acequion

seavill wrote: »

This is really a poor attitude to have towards people. We are the ones teaching our kids about respect and dignity yet this is the attitude towards those that you don't agree with?

regardless of whether you agree with them or not people are entitled to their opinion on all ballots. Some will vote yes some will vote no, that is their right. Just because they don't agree with your view does not make them "thick" or lacking in knowledge. It means they have an opinion.

Also in relation to the turn out yes its very poor to see that few people voting, but just as it is everyone right to have a vote, it is also their right if they choose to do so, not to vote. That is their choice. I don't necessarily agree with that choice but that's that.

Just for the record I did vote and voted against the new JC but even so, I respect other people's opinions and choices.

This happens regularly here that those in the minority are slagged off for going against the grain. Called numerous things for not agreeing with the masses but we have to respect their choice, maybe they really believe in their side of the argument. Again we are the ones supposed to be setting the example in terms of tolerance and respect.

Oh for god's sake seavill,would you ever cop on! This isn't the first time one of your posts has really annoyed me, and though of course I respect you as a collegue and fellow teacher,I normally refrain from arguing with you because I don't want to be getting banned [though there are worse things in the world :eek:]

Your argument is downright simplistic and tunnel visioned. Oh, on the surface,hard to argue with you on the subject of respect and tolerance etc,but few things are ever that black and white.The plain fact is that Quinn is very wrong about so many things.He has treated teachers with a barely concealed contempt [and I was up close to him at last year's conference and witnessed that very disdain in his entire demeanour] and his actions threaten to seriously worsen education standards in this country. Add to that his insulting stance about video cameras in classrooms and his patronising and ageist remarks that older teachers wouldn't be open to new methodologies and it would make you want to strangle any teacher who could agree with him. Mrwhite1970 is completely right. They are either plain thick or they're following another agenda.

You can go too far with the holier than thou,"we must be tolerant" approach. What is badly needed in this country is a bit of passion and a bit of bad mannered mud slinging in certain directions. Anything that might shake off the cobwebs of apathy and defeatism.

acequion

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Firstly a ballot is a ballot. We dont query local election results because only 50% 0t people on average vote. But 45% is disappointing.It shows

1. A good third of ASTI voters consistently tend not to vote ie its below 66% most ballots. Sure some didn't vote this time who did last time but there are members who probably never vote.
2. Member are sick of ballots and probably know we will cave in.
3. A certain percentage of teachers -despite having a degree are just a bit thick when it comes to union politics. They dont like to upset anyone and belive in Mr Quinn. BTW-he recently thought video cameras in Classes were a good idea

I said I would quit if HR passed but Held on because I fooled myself into thinking JC ballot might finally e the straw etc but I realized Im just plain delusional. 45% turnout says it all.
My year as school steward ends May 10th. Im branch secretary too but I will be gone by June.

My advice-study up on JC -we will be assessing our own pupils . Reduce your workloaad before this ie give up voluntary work. The cave in will happen. Radicals in the union are a minority

I agree with a lot of what you say there Mrwhite1970, but let's not give in to defeatism!

Yes 45% is embarrassingly low and I often wonder what the hell these non voters are doing in a trade union.I think a sizeable number of ASTI members now see membership as an insurance in the event of disputes with pupils /parents, and nothing more. Lunacy, in my view as the principal raison d'etre of a trade union is to protect pay and conditions of employment. So,these non voters bear a certain amount of the responsibility for the under performance of the union on these issues and are really letting down the rest of us.

But,you're right that many members have no longer any faith in the union and just can't be bothered any more. Hence, a worsening of the malaise of apathy. In fact if they feel that strongly,they'd be as well to leave and not to be propping up Pat King's bloated salary.

However, like you, I was also tempted to vote with my feet after HR, but I decided to hang in there. And I'm glad I did and that I got to vote again this time. The way I look at it is if we leave we are completely powerless,whereas by staying in the union we can fight on.We do have a strong case now that TUI,for once,are on the same side as us. It really is up to the members to stick to their guns.

seavill

acequion wrote: »

Oh for god's sake seavill,would you ever cop on! This isn't the first time one of your posts has really annoyed me, and though of course I respect you as a collegue and fellow teacher,I normally refrain from arguing with you because I don't want to be getting banned [though there are worse things in the world :eek:]

Your argument is downright simplistic and tunnel visioned. Oh, on the surface,hard to argue with you on the subject of respect and tolerance etc,but few things are ever that black and white.The plain fact is that Quinn is very wrong about so many things.He has treated teachers with a barely concealed contempt [and I was up close to him at last year's conference and witnessed that very disdain in his entire demeanour] and his actions threaten to seriously worsen education standards in this country. Add to that his insulting stance about video cameras in classrooms and his patronising and ageist remarks that older teachers wouldn't be open to new methodologies and it would make you want to strangle any teacher who could agree with him. Mrwhite1970 is completely right. They are either plain thick or they're following another agenda.

You can go too far with the holier than thou,"we must be tolerant" approach. What is badly needed in this country is a bit of passion and a bit of bad mannered mud slinging in certain directions. Anything that might shake off the cobwebs of apathy and defeatism.

I think the fact that you point out that my posts constantly annoy you actually makes my point for me that people on one side of the argument have no tolerance or respect for people that have the cheek to disagree with them.

Just to reiterate I voted against this. I was out at lunch time last week when a large number of my colleagues were not. I was in an interesting (heated) discussion in school today with a colleague about JC. Although I didn't agree with their logic they had certainly fully thought trough everything in relation to this debate. Their opinion (this part was the only part I did agree with them) on Quinn was that yes he might be implementing the policies but him personally is not what this fight is about, it is about the rights or wrongs of the policy he is trying to implement not him personally.

Its certainly not a holier than thou approach. Its respecting someone else's opinion (no matter how wrong I think they are). Like I said I have plenty of fight, I explained that above that is irrelevant to the point I was making.

acequion

seavill wrote: »

I think the fact that you point out that my posts constantly annoy you actually makes my point for me that people on one side of the argument have no tolerance or respect for people that have the cheek to disagree with them.

Just to reiterate I voted against this. I was out at lunch time last week when a large number of my colleagues were not. I was in an interesting (heated) discussion in school today with a colleague about JC. Although I didn't agree with their logic they had certainly fully thought trough everything in relation to this debate. Their opinion (this part was the only part I did agree with them) on Quinn was that yes he might be implementing the policies but him personally is not what this fight is about, it is about the rights or wrongs of the policy he is trying to implement not him personally.

Its certainly not a holier than thou approach. Its respecting someone else's opinion (no matter how wrong I think they are). Like I said I have plenty of fight, I explained that above that is irrelevant to the point I was making.

Now,you are implying that my being annoyed at your posts,somehow makes me intolerant and /or disrespectful of opposing opinions. Not true.

What annoys me in your posts is your intolerance of what you see as intolerance,which is what I see as passion and single mindedness. In other words, I have no problem with the fact that we disagree and clash. What I don't like, seavill, is what I see as a rather righteous,holier than thou attitude coming from you.For example x poster,perhaps yours truly,launches into a big tirade about Quinn and the behaviour of certain people. The point not being, that Quinn is an asshole [well I think he is, but that's irrelevant] but that what he is doing is WRONG. You then come on and take the poster to task over their manners, when that is clearly beside the point.

Our fight with our employer, like all fights, is turning into a dirty one. Mud is getting slung, individuals are getting stroppy. So what and who cares! The most important thing is that we stick together and win this fight for the sake of our students and our profession. Disrespect and bad manners are very minor collateral damage.

seavill

acequion wrote: »

Now,you are implying that my being annoyed at your posts,somehow makes me intolerant and /or disrespectful of opposing opinions. Not true.

What annoys me in your posts is your intolerance of what you see as intolerance,which is what I see as passion and single mindedness. In other words, I have no problem with the fact that we disagree and clash. What I don't like, seavill, is what I see as a rather righteous,holier than thou attitude coming from you.For example x poster,perhaps yours truly,launches into a big tirade about Quinn and the behaviour of certain people. The point not being, that Quinn is an asshole [well I think he is, but that's irrelevant] but that what he is doing is WRONG. You then come on and take the poster to task over their manners, when that is clearly beside the point.

Our fight with our employer, like all fights, is turning into a dirty one. Mud is getting slung, individuals are getting stroppy. So what and who cares! The most important thing is that we stick together and win this fight for the sake of our students and our profession. Disrespect and bad manners are very minor collateral damage.

Look going into in like this really has nothing to do with the thread.

Ironically you are making the point, we need to stick together like you said calling those that disagree thick certainly doesn't do that.

You can think I'm holier than thou if you like, its got nothing to do with the thread. PM me if you wish.

I have said I don't agree with not voting I have said that I am against JC and I have been disagreeing with colleagues about it, lunch time protest etc. However I still stand over my opinion that calling those (within our own ranks) thick for having an opinion is wrong, it doesn't help the cause, it does nothing but alienate people and it cheapens our valid arguments.

It is important that We all stick together as much as possible, continue to try to influence people to the right thing. I think the 88% vote against JC shows that there are very few people that need to be influenced overall, those people are irrelevant to the argument overall at it stands due to the result of the ballot.
My view is that we are better to strengthen our arguments rather than cheapen them, influence the other teachers, the parents and the students to our side of things, again calling our own names certainly doesn't do this.

acequion

seavill wrote: »

Look going into in like this really has nothing to do with the thread.

Ironically you are making the point, we need to stick together like you said calling those that disagree thick certainly doesn't do that.

You can think I'm holier than thou if you like, its got nothing to do with the thread. PM me if you wish.

I have said I don't agree with not voting I have said that I am against JC and I have been disagreeing with colleagues about it, lunch time protest etc. However I still stand over my opinion that calling those (within our own ranks) thick for having an opinion is wrong, it doesn't help the cause, it does nothing but alienate people and it cheapens our valid arguments.

It is important that We all stick together as much as possible, continue to try to influence people to the right thing. I think the 88% vote against JC shows that there are very few people that need to be influenced overall, those people are irrelevant to the argument overall at it stands due to the result of the ballot.
My view is that we are better to strengthen our arguments rather than cheapen them, influence the other teachers, the parents and the students to our side of things, again calling our own names certainly doesn't do this.

And I see things differently. I think we're too concerned about our image and how others see us and that's an Irish thing. An Irish thing,which I believe has kept us so conservative,as we don't like to be seen as crass or rude.

But that's an argument for another day,and you're right,totally irrelevant to this thread,which is about the ballot result. So I hope we can agree to disagree.:o

seavill

Agreed

comewatmay

After the HR DEBACLE I refuse to take part in a pointless ballet.

If they didn't get the answer they wanted would they just tweak it a little and tell us to vote again....

ASTI are a joke

Pat King is a softie

On another note why is it college lecturers finish up for the summer in APRIL? That's takin the piss!

Mardy Bum

comewatmay wrote: »

On another note why is it college lecturers finish up for the summer in APRIL? That's takin the piss!

The vast majority do not finish in April. They get a few weeks in the summer. Colleges don't close come May either just to let you know.

endakenny

Armelodie wrote: »

This 45% is a red herring. Same as the 10% drop out rate ...it has no bearing on what is going on. The fact is the vote has been cast so lets move on. We could be shooting the breeze untill the cows come home about why people dont vote...
I heard claire byrne trying to use it as another teacher bashing stick yesterday... Seeing as how its not about teachers pay or pensions they are just trying to taint the whole JC arguement with irrelevant distractions.

On what programme did you hear this? Are you sure it was "yesterday" (Wednesday) when you heard it?

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

On what programme did you hear this? Are you sure it was "yesterday" (Wednesday) when you heard it?

Prime time with pat king...maybe it was tuesday!

MrJones1973

I said people who voted for Hr are politically thick or words to that affect. I stand over that 100%. They are not thick in general obviously. The proof will be what happens next few years. Its true that a rejection of Hr could have lead to redundancies and massive attacks on teachers but we woud have responded to that etc. Not striking has achieved Nothing. We have proven to be spineless.

Anyway that battle is over.
The new battle will be lost by those who just want to roll over again and again. Perhaps they are better at reading the political winds than I am. ie its going to happen so easier to give in etc
BUT-either not correcting our own pupils is a principle of ours or it isnt ? Do we break this principle?
I know it has been broken in some subjects-do we extend to all?
My efforts at persuading the masses have failed. I have disdain for pro HR opinions not the people themselves.

Mr white packs his bag and exits the ASTI room. He does not look back. He knows June will soon go. He knows there will be more pointless initiatives . He knows there will be no resistance of merit. A tiny tear falls from his eye. He does not wipe it away. He thinks of a student he knows and thinks of setting up a Meth lab

endakenny

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I said people who voted for Hr are politically thick or words to that affect. I stand over that 100%. They are not thick in general obviously. The proof will be what happens next few years. Its true that a rejection of Hr could have lead to redundancies and massive attacks on teachers but we woud have responded to that etc. Not striking has achieved Nothing. We have proven to be spineless.

Anyway that battle is over.
The new battle will be lost by those who just want to roll over again and again. Perhaps they are better at reading the political winds than I am. ie its going to happen so easier to give in etc
BUT-either not correcting our own pupils is a principle of ours or it isnt ? Do we break this principle?
I know it has been broken in some subjects-do we extend to all?
My efforts at persuading the masses have failed. I have disdain for pro HR opinions not the people themselves.

Mr white packs his bag and exits the ASTI room. He does not look back. He knows June will soon go. He knows there will be more pointless initiatives . He knows there will be no resistance of merit. A tiny tear falls from his eye. He does not wipe it away. He thinks of a student he knows and thinks of setting up a Meth lab

You could succeed in trying to convince parents of the disadvantages of the JCSA if you put your mind to it. Therefore, refusal to carry out assessments might work. You could use the upcoming local elections to put your message across.

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

You could succeed in trying to convince parents of the disadvantages of the JCSA if you put your mind to it. Therefore, refusal to carry out assessments might work. You could use the upcoming local elections to put your message across.

Parents of current students? Why should they care?
Parents of primary school children aint really thinking that far ahead I would guess.

Getting parents onside is futile...

endakenny

Armelodie wrote: »

Parents of current students? Why should they care?
Parents of primary school children aint really thinking that far ahead I would guess.

Getting parents onside is futile...

How do you know it's futile? Parents of those current students who have younger siblings who are yet to enter secondary education might be interested.

MrJones1973

Nothing is ever futile unless tried first-if that makes sense. My son woke me up half five so give me lee way!


National parents council-who funds them? I sent an e mail asking this question. No answer. It would be worth calling them and asking them. I suspect they get a good perecentage from the Department, Look at their address.

They dont tend to represent disadvantaged schools. They are being fed research from the department. This is according to our Standing committee rep.
I do believe that the media has not made up its mind on this issue. Its still an open debate.
So by all means try and fight it.
I have been ten years actively involved in the ASTI. About 6 on CEC. I have gone to about 30 branch meetings. Written articles.
Could I have done more? Sure. Could I do more -sure but I just dont have the heart anymore. Posters here are tuned in. Its those who dont post who have stabbed me in the front. (friends do that)
So Im done-over to you Enda and company.

2011abc

This battle was lost the day CEC agreed to a third ballot on HRA .Currently young teachers are cursing their sellout by the union/s and now as predicted by wiser heads we're ALL reaping what we've sown .Future generations will curse what was let slip 'on our watch'.All I can say in my defence is that I would have fully supported an all out strike on multi tier pay levels .Anyway Ive left the union and the current JC campaign is pure optics by Head Office .Everybody knows they were meeting behind closed doors selling us out (for what!?)that shameful week that preceeded the ill fated 'emergency' CEC meeting .

endakenny

2011abc wrote: »

This battle was lost the day CEC agreed to a third ballot on HRA .Currently young teachers are cursing their sellout by the union/s and now as predicted by wiser heads we're ALL reaping what we've sown .Future generations will curse what was let slip 'on our watch'.All I can say in my defence is that I would have fully supported an all out strike on multi tier pay levels .Anyway Ive left the union and the current JC campaign is pure optics by Head Office .Everybody knows they were meeting behind closed doors selling us out (for what!?)that shameful week that preceeded the ill fated 'emergency' CEC meeting .

The CEC may have been advised that it was obliged by union rules to hold another ballot if a change, however slight, was made to HRA.

The blame for the selling-out of younger teachers rests with those ASTI members who chose to accept HRA or didn't study HRA or didn't bother to vote.

MrJones1973

Ultimately members are to blame. Im on CEC-I didnt buy the argument that members could sue over not being balloted . I would have directed members not to do free s and s. Let schools close. We would have had a better deal after 2 weeks of closure. Then the wider community would see some of the unruly kids we deal with. A mini riot ? You bring Quinn back to table. I doubt the parents of Sandymount would love to see little Sorcha and Myles without education. It would have been nasty and brutal but eventually they would get message. Worst Case scenario-we would have ended up with free S and but the JC would have been shelved

But alas Im Dreaming..

BTW Enda-what Part of Ireland do you teach in?

endakenny

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Ultimately members are to blame. Im on CEC-I didnt buy the argument that members could sue over not being balloted . I would have directed members not to do free s and s. Let schools close. We would have had a better deal after 2 weeks of closure. Then the wider community would see some of the unruly kids we deal with. A mini riot ? You bring Quinn back to table. I doubt the parents of Sandymount would love to see little Sorcha and Myles without education. It would have been nasty and brutal but eventually they would get message. Worst Case scenario-we would have ended up with free S and but the JC would have been shelved

But alas Im Dreaming..

BTW Enda-what Part of Ireland do you teach in?

I'm not a teacher. Surely, that doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to have an opinion on educational matters. Does it?

ytareh

Sheesh !Bit defensive there !

endakenny

ytareh wrote: »

Sheesh !Bit defensive there !

Point taken. I never said that I was a teacher.

vamos!

endakenny wrote: »

I'm not a teacher. Surely, that doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to have an opinion on educational matters. Does it?

An interest would be normal. However, 225 of your posts are in the T&L forum, most of which involve you commenting on the education system. Your posts tend to show that you aren't a teacher, as you lack an understanding of real life in a real school. There is taking an interest and then there is commenting repeatedly on matters you don't understand. Your posts veer towards the latter.

<MOD WARNING>

OK Folks, back on topic or it's the simmer-down-chair! The forum is open to anyone.

All posters have the choice to either:

A: Respond to the point
B: Ignore the other member.
C: Report any shenanigans.

Profiling members on boards for the purposes of tainting opinion is distracting to the topic at hand.

endakenny

A letter from Barry Hazel in today's Indo. It's the second letter on the following webpage.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/pylons-will-mutilate-our-beautiful-countryside-30140341.html

MrJones1973

Enda-My question was innocent. I generally find your views Pro teacher. Assumed you were one. I suspect you are but its not important!

endakenny

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Enda-My question was innocent. I generally find your views Pro teacher. Assumed you were one. I suspect you are but its not important!

Honestly, I'm not a teacher. I'm simply in favour of teachers being able to do their jobs with as little disruption as possible.

MrJones1973

Fair enough Enda. Wrote my letter of resignation today. Effective June 1. Want to finish my term as Union steward/Branch Sec then Im off. I feel a weight has been lifted. Sleeping with the enemy etc.

acequion

It's the best people who're leaving the union. The ones like MrWhite1970 who've been committed to fighting to protect our conditions. The mefeiners,meanwhile,are staying put because, "it's not what I can do for the union,but what the union can do for me".

MrJones1973

As An Aside they once asked JFKs speech writer if he (the writer) or JFK wrote that famous phrase " Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country ", His Reply:ASK NOT.

There is some hope though -I was talking to a friend on mine who is on the ASTI Health and Welfare committee, Its emphasis is on staff welfare. The Health and safety guide for schools has 4 pages on tractor maintenance and one page on staff welfare. There is a major study coming on sterss and teachers in 4 countries plus talks are progressing on a properly financed occupational health service-not medmark who simply check up why you are sick and provide no help for teachers struggling .

Some the ASTI does some good.

acequion

I've no doubt some good is being done,however The primary goal of any trade union worth it's salt should be to protect the pay and conditions of its members and ASTI has failed dismally in that regard. So I may yet decide to part company as well. However Pat King's not likely to be around for too long more,so who knows!

ytareh

I was always led to believe he was gone(retiring) come this Summer , God knows he's behaved like that .

MrJones1973

;)Think he is 2 yrs away-trust me -his likely successor aint much better. I cant obviously name names but I would prefer an outsider with balls but I think HQ would insist they be detached upon taking over .

Perhaps a woman would be better? A Thatcher Trade unionist?