Streaming ...... legal or not?

Johnboy1951

I would like to determine if it is illegal to (EDIT: view a) stream under the following conditions .....

If some one/company makes available a stream on line for content that I am already entitled to receive, if I use their (unapproved) service am I committing an offence, and if so under what statute? .... copyright infringement? Doesn't seem so ... not on my part anyway.

So if 'A' makes RTÉ 2 TV available at some IP address, without agreement with the rights holder/s, and if I connect to that stream, am I committing an offence, even though I am a TV Licence holder and am entitled to receive the content which is broadcast via DTT and Sat.

Thanks.

BTW ...... this arose from a different discussion and is not related to any actual case that I am aware of.

STB

If you do this commercially you would need the permission of the broadcasters themselves. You not be allowed charge for the channels. Similar to must offer/must carry.

Also you would have to deploy IP geolocation technology to apease rights holders.

In order to go after the viewers they would need the logs of the server. Rights holders/Broadcasters would be more interested in the source of the problem.

Johnboy1951

STB wrote: »

If you do this commercially you would need the permission of the broadcasters themselves. You not be allowed charge for the channels. Similar to must offer/must carry.

Also you would have to deploy IP geolocation technology to apease rights holders.

Not relevant to the question at hand ..... it is the viewers status I am interested in.

In order to go after the viewers they would need the logs of the server. Rights holders/Broadcasters would be more interested in the source of the problem.

My question was ...... for what could they go after the viewers?
It seems to me the viewer is doing nothing wrong by accessing content they have a right to view.

radiowaves

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

It seems to me the viewer is doing nothing wrong by accessing content they have a right to view.

So, do you believe it would be legal to use satellite cardsharing to access content you've paid for on cable - or vice versa?

In other words you've no more legal right to access illegally sourced material (just because you're paying to access it legally elsewhere) than anyone not paying a provider.

Johnboy1951

radiowaves wrote: »

So, do you believe it would be legal to use satellite cardsharing to access content you've paid for on cable - or vice versa?

In other words you've no more legal right to access illegally sourced material (just because you're paying to access it legally elsewhere) than anyone not paying a provider.

under what statute? .... copyright infringement?

If it is illegal for me to access such content, can you tell me under what statute/law it is illegal, taking the example I gave (RTÉ) in the OP?

radiowaves

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If it is illegal for me to access such content, can you tell me under what statute/law it is illegal, taking the example I gave (RTÉ) in the OP?

You're putting words in my mouth (or into my post)

If you were to be convicted of watching illegally-sourced material the fact that you have paid for the content legally from the source provider would have no bearing and would give you no more of a right to watch it than someone who hadn't.

That was my point.

As evidenced by my cardsharing example.

If you were simply asking was it illegal to view such content the answer is one that has perplexed greater legal minds than mine and depends on a number of variables.

But if it is illegal for one person it is illegal for all.

STB

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Not relevant to the question at hand ..... it is the viewers status I am interested in.

My question was ...... for what could they go after the viewers?
It seems to me the viewer is doing nothing wrong by accessing content they have a right to view.

It is very relevant.

If you think you know the answer dont ask the question.

Forget cardsharing content discussions. This is simpler than all that. If a company is offering streams of Irish PSB content, they must geo-block it as otherwise the broadcast would be offered outside its rights area and would impinge on copyright agreements made by the PSB channels themselves. The operator also needs the permission of the broadcasters themselves. They may also be required to be registered with Comreg. AerTV is your example within Ireland. Use it. Filmon have ongoing disputes on this issues within the UK.

To get to your question about end users, illegally receiving content is a breach of legislation. It does not matter that you can receive it via online/sat/terrestrial within Ireland. All of these receiving situations are legal and agreed by the Service Provider and the Rights Holders.

To access it through someone who is not legit is in itself a breach. Your question should be would they. The answer is probably not for the reasons outlined in my first post, but there is no certainty in that!

radiowaves

STB wrote: »

It is very relevant.

Not to the question that was asked. The OP is well aware that offering streaming content is illegal, you might want to read his first post again

STB wrote: »

Forget cardsharing content discussions. This is simpler than all that. If a company is offering streams of Irish PSB content....

Cardsharing (in the context I brought it up) is more relevant to the OP's question than the answer you went on to give here

Anyway, for reference:

https://torrentfreak.com/viewing-pirated-streams-is-not-illegal-german-govt-says-140109/

watty

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

If it is illegal for me to access such content, can you tell me under what statute/law it is illegal, taking the example I gave (RTÉ) in the OP?

Theft of Service.

But as it's only up to 6 months jail and / or a few thousands (€8K?) usually Program originators or platform owners take a civil case for Copyright instead. There is NO liability limit on civil law cases.

Copyright holders have the right to decide how content is distributed and consumed. Owners of Transmission / Broadcast services (need not be Pay TV) can ask Director of Public Prosecutions (via Garda) invoke the lesser criminal offence of theft of service.

Taking Pay TV or illegally redistributed Free to Air is both copyright violation and theft of service.

It seems to me the viewer is doing nothing wrong by accessing content they have a right to view.

Well, you'd be wrong. If the material is distributed illegally, it's copyright violation by the viewer, even if FTA content!

Most "Free to Air" isn't "Free to Carry". But even "Free to Carry" needs written permission of the provider or it's "theft of service" to redistribute. Consuming illegally distributed content even if Free To Carry is copyright violation.

You might not like it, but that's how it works. Same applies to Music, Printed Material etc.

Johnboy1951

watty wrote: »

Theft of Service.

But as it's only up to 6 months jail and / or a few thousands (€8K?) usually Program originators or platform owners take a civil case for Copyright instead. There is NO liability limit on civil law cases.

Copyright holders have the right to decide how content is distributed and consumed. Owners of Transmission / Broadcast services (need not be Pay TV) can ask Director of Public Prosecutions (via Garda) invoke the lesser criminal offence of theft of service.

Taking Pay TV or illegally redistributed Free to Air is both copyright violation and theft of service.

I do not presently have knowledge of that legislation (which is why I was asking) but yes I have a difficulty in understanding how it could be 'copyright violation' for a licenced Irish viewer to watch an unapproved stream of RTÉ 2.

Well, you'd be wrong. If the material is distributed illegally, it's copyright violation by the viewer, even if FTA content!

Thank you.

Most "Free to Air" isn't "Free to Carry". But even "Free to Carry" needs written permission of the provider or it's "theft of service" to redistribute. Consuming illegally distributed content even if Free To Carry is copyright violation.

mini-rant/
I 'hate' that consume term that seems to be used everywhere these days, even for things like this which are NOT consumed!
./mini-rant

You might not like it, but that's how it works. Same applies to Music, Printed Material etc.

From your reply it appears that copyright protection covers a heck of a lot more than I was aware of.

Thank again for the reply.



EDIT:
I have been unable to find the relevant legislation, but will continue to look ...... if anyone has a link I would be grateful, thanks.

STB

radiowaves wrote: »

Not to the question that was asked. The OP is well aware that offering streaming content is illegal, you might want to read his first post again

Cardsharing (in the context I brought it up) is more relevant to the OP's question than the answer you went on to give here

Anyway, for reference:

https://torrentfreak.com/viewing-pirated-streams-is-not-illegal-german-govt-says-140109/

My answer is to the question that was asked.

Cardsharing is nothing to do with this discussion. Cardsharing (especially in the context you brought it up) is circumventing subscription tv and is highly illegal, at both ends.

This chap is asking about the legality of accessing streamed public broadcaster services within the state from an illegitimate source. The content, ie the stations themselves cannot be lifted and rebroadcast in any form without that entities express permission (and all that goes with that above).

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I have been unable to find the relevant legislation, but will continue to look ...... if anyone has a link I would be grateful, thanks.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0024/sec0009.html (Section 9 - 4)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0018/sec0077.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0028/sec0372.html

radiowaves

STB wrote: »

My answer is to the question that was asked.

Cardsharing is nothing to do with this discussion. Cardsharing (especially in the context you brought it up) is circumventing subscription tv and is highly illegal, at both ends.

.

Part of your answer answered him. However the part that was highlighted by the OP wasn't - as he pointed out the only question he asked was about the status of the viewer not the stream provider.

STB wrote: »

If you think you know the answer dont ask the question.

He hadn't asked that question - he already knew the answer. Anyway it's all immaterial now

I used cardsharing as an example of accessing content which would still be illegal even if said content was paid for legally from other sources - which was the question asked.

Although used as an example, it had a certain relevance.

JustAddWater

Put it this way, if there's a film on netflix and I'm subscribed to it...

Then if I torrent that same movie, am I doing something illegal? ... Yes

Will I Amnt

Was just wondering similar the other day. I was watching Sky Sports through an illegal subscription site, I have the full Sky Sports package which includes Sky Go.
I opted for the illegal site as the streams are far superior than what I do get on Sky Go.

radiowaves

JustAddWater wrote: »

Put it this way, if there's a film on netflix and I'm subscribed to it...

Then if I torrent that same movie, am I doing something illegal? ... Yes

Legally, downloading a torrent is different than accessing a stream - see the link I provided to see what the Germans are making of it all.

BionicRasher

Maybe on the same track.....I had heard of the new Panasonic TV Anywhere and wondered....Is it legal to bring my tablet on holiday to Spain and sit around the pool bar in Costa Del Sunny and watch a live Pro12 rugby match from TG4 via this tool? I might have some Spanish buddies with me that don't pay a licence fee.

How would all this work?

Johnboy1951

STB wrote: »

M

This chap is asking about the legality of accessing streamed public broadcaster services within the state from an illegitimate source. The content, ie the stations themselves cannot be lifted and rebroadcast in any form without that entities express permission (and all that goes with that above).


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0024/sec0009.html (Section 9 - 4)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0018/sec0077.html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2000/en/act/pub/0028/sec0372.html

Yes I am asking ONLY about the status of the person viewing the material.
I have no interest in the status or licencing of those who might provide this unapproved service.

Unless I skipped something in one of those three links, I did not find what I am seeking.

Was just wondering similar the other day. I was watching Sky Sports through an illegal subscription site, I have the full Sky Sports package which includes Sky Go.
I opted for the illegal site as the streams are far superior than what I do get on Sky Go.

I am asking something very similar, but there might be subtle differences because of format changes or something which I am avoiding getting into


So far I have not yet accessed any statute that explains the position of the person viewing the 'unapproved' service.

Everything so far accessed, concentrates on most other aspects, but not the viewer.

icdg

Okay I think its time to bring this thread to an end. There's far too much risk of it turning into a discussion on how to break copyright which as has been pointed out is illegal. It is also against our rules to discuss how to break geo-locking..