A Garda incident I had today.

Niall558

So I was walking home from the local village (about 10 - 15 minute walk) when suddenly a Garda Traffic Corps car speeds down the main road that I'm walking next to and quickly swerves in towards me and stops. There were two uniformed Gardaí in the car and the one on the drivers side, brings down his window.

He then says "Alright buddy. I wanna have a quick word with you". I walked over to the window and in a bewildered state replied with "err.. ok". He continues on chatting with me for about 20-30 seconds, noting all my details, including name and address. He asked where I was coming from and as I was mentioning where he gave a subtle nod, as if he already knew.

After our chat, I continued to walk on as normal where they watched me walk maybe 100 metres then drove by me, as to just turn around and see my face one last time and sped back off.

Even though I wasn't searched, I found it a little bit intimidating, especially when I wouldn't be on any 'radar' as so to speak and also I have never even committed any illegal offences etc. I'm wondering if this a normal practice that Gardaí can use and if the situation arises again, can they legally search me?

Kettleson

Sounds like they were following up some very recent incident where you were in the vicinity of, and loosely fitted the description of someone they were looking for.

Can they legally search you? I'm guessing with reason, they can.

the world wonders

Niall558 wrote: »

I'm wondering if this a normal practice that Gardaí can use and if the situation arises again, can they legally search me?

http://www.iccl.ie/attachments/download/101/Know%20Your%20Rights%20Criminal%20Justice%20and%20Garda%20Powers.pdf

Bepolite

Niall558 wrote: »

So I was walking home from the local village (about 10 - 15 minute walk) when suddenly a Garda Traffic Corps car speeds down the main road that I'm walking next to and quickly swerves in towards me and stops. There were two uniformed Gardaí in the car and the one on the drivers side, brings down his window.

He then says "Alright buddy. I wanna have a quick word with you". I walked over to the window and in a bewildered state replied with "err.. ok". He continues on chatting with me for about 20-30 seconds, noting all my details, including name and address. He asked where I was coming from and as I was mentioning where he gave a subtle nod, as if he already knew.

After our chat, I continued to walk on as normal where they watched me walk maybe 100 metres then drove by me, as to just turn around and see my face one last time and sped back off.

Even though I wasn't searched, I found it a little bit intimidating, especially when I wouldn't be on any 'radar' as so to speak and also I have never even committed any illegal offences etc. I'm wondering if this a normal practice that Gardaí can use and if the situation arises again, can they legally search me?

What did they do that would give you cause to feel intimidation? If you'd just had the crap kicked out of you/wallet stolen/raped, would you not want them to stop (efficiently and quickly) anyone matching the description of your attacker in the vicinity of the incident. You might also hope that any innocent party cooperated (as you did) in a timely fashion so they could get on to the next person?

Popescu

Stopping and interrogating a citizen is not allowed in the United States unless you are under arrest but I think the Irish police can do what they like.

Zambia

You are saying a American cop cant stop and ask you for your name and address DOB etc without arresting you?

Note the info was not demanded it was also given willingly

Popescu

Zambia wrote: »

You are saying a American cop cant stop and ask you for your name and address DOB etc without arresting you?

Note the info was not demanded it was also given willingly

Correct. American police cannot demand answers from a citizen unless he arrests you with a Miranda warning that you need not answer any questions anyway.

Zambia

Popescu wrote: »

Correct. American police cannot demand answers from a citizen unless he arrests you with a Miranda warning that you need not answer any questions anyway.

No answers were demanded

He then says "Alright buddy. I wanna have a quick word with you". I walked over to the window and in a bewildered state replied with "err.. ok".

sopretty

Sounds like a case of mistaken identity perhaps. Unless you were coming from a dodgy address?

thomas anderson.

Probably having the craic, sure what else would they be doing?

Bepolite

Popescu wrote: »

Stopping and interrogating a citizen is not allowed in the United States unless you are under arrest but I think the Irish police can do what they like.

Yep the Irish police can get a third party to invade your home without a warrant... oh wait no that's the US sorry.

They can shoot you... oh wait sorry that's the US

They can tazer you... oh wait sorry that's the US

They can lock you up for years for the slightest infraction... oh wait thats the US too!

Seems the grass isn't as green on the other side.

REXER

Bepolite wrote: »

What did they do that would give you cause to feel intimidation? If you'd just had the crap kicked out of you/wallet stolen/raped, would you not want them to stop (efficiently and quickly) anyone matching the description of your attacker in the vicinity of the incident. You might also hope that any innocent party cooperated (as you did) in a timely fashion so they could get on to the next person?

The approach sounds pretty intimidatory and agressive. I guess the answer would lie in your user name! :rolleyes:

Bepolite

REXER wrote: »

The approach sounds pretty intimidatory and agressive. I guess the answer would lie in your user name! :rolleyes:

Aren't we all delicate little petals. What would you have done differently? Adopted the US style of patronising sir/ma'am bollocks. Starbucks have been attempting this for years, hasn't worked yet.

smile!

Sorry popescu, I have a background in policing in the states and you are wrong. It's illegal in Arizona, Montana and Nebraska but LEGAL everywhere else. In Ireland guards have power to demand name and address off any member of the public but not their date of birth.

And as previously stated if you were mugged you would be delighted if guards stopped anyone around matching description.

Police in this country get too hard of a time in my opinion. People always jump at first chance to put them down.

Cymini Sectores

Niall558 wrote: »

I'm wondering if this a normal practice that Gardaí can use and if the situation arises again, can they legally search me?

It is understandable that you felt intimidated, however the guards can stop and ask you questions, but you are not obliged to give any answers as long as you are not being arrested. Some cities give the police stop and search powers. I stand corrected but one has to be read her or his rights before the guards can do that.

Niall558

Niall558 wrote: »

So I was walking home from the local village (about 10 - 15 minute walk) when suddenly a Garda Traffic Corps car speeds down the main road that I'm walking next to.....

Bepolite wrote: »

If you'd just had the crap kicked out of you/wallet stolen/raped, would you not want them to stop (efficiently and quickly) anyone matching the description of your attacker in the vicinity of the incident......

smile! wrote: »

And as previously stated if you were mugged.....

The Traffic Corps? What? Does the OP look a bit like the registration plate of a car caught speeding on camera? :rolleyes:

timmy4u2

There is nothing to stop the Gardai from asking you any questions. The Judges rules, in existence since 1912 but not rooted in law, assist them in this; basically that there is no bar to the Gardai putting any questions to anybody, whether suspect or not.....
You do not have to give your name and you cannot be searched at random without lawful authority such as Sec 23 Misuse of Drugs Act on reasonable suspicion.
A nice article here on the right to silence
http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=the%20nine%20judges%20rules&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCsQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.justice.ie%2Fen%2FJELR%2FInterimReport.pdf%2FFiles%2FInterimReport.pdf&ei=D-xTU5nBEeTD7AaVhoGoDA&usg=AFQjCNFlFcyr2l74azgsSswuObQyKbRZWw&sig2=pf6mi1as75VSjGwp8aZ80A

sparksfly

I really don't have a problem with answering reasonable questions from the cops or any authoritive person provided it is for the purpose of public well being, justice or safety.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The Traffic Corps? What? Does the OP look a bit like the registration plate of a car caught speeding on camera? :rolleyes:

Traffic Corps also deal with regular work.

If you were being beaten in the road would you expect a traffic corps car to pull up and ask the lads to beat you on the footpath instead, as they're interfering with traffic flow, until the regular unit come up to stop the fight?

steddyeddy

sopretty wrote: »

Sounds like a case of mistaken identity perhaps. Unless you were coming from a dodgy address?

Even the OP was from a "dodgy address" as you put it mistaken identity could still be a possibility.

sopretty

steddyeddy wrote: »

Even the OP was from a "dodgy address" as you put it mistaken identity could still be a possibility.

By 'dodgy address' I meant a known address to gardai i.e. an address known to gardai. Not that the guy was coming from No 1, Skidrow, Nohopesville, Ireland

Potential-Monke

smile! wrote: »

In Ireland guards have power to demand name and address off any member of the public but not their date of birth.

Just to clarify, a Garda can ask you anything they want, but you don't have to answer. They can only demand name and address in certain situations, ie: if they have reasonable suspicion that you have or may have broken the law/been involved in an incident.

As for the OP, as many have already said, something probably happened nearby and they were patrolling the area looking for suspects.

carzony

Potential-Monke wrote: »

Just to clarify, a Garda can ask you anything they want, but you don't have to answer. They can only demand name and address in certain situations, ie: if they have reasonable suspicion that you have or may have broken the law/been involved in an incident.

As for the OP, as many have already said, something probably happened nearby and they were patrolling the area looking for suspects.

bit off topic but, say i'm driving and stopped am i still obliged to give my details?

K.Flyer

carzony wrote: »

bit off topic but, say i'm driving and stopped am i still obliged to give my details?

Yes.. and you are required to have your driving license on you to show them that as well.

timmy4u2

carzony wrote: »

bit off topic but, say i'm driving and stopped am i still obliged to give my details?

Depends on what you mean by details.
I presume you mean name and address.
In that situation there is no obligation on you to give your name and address or indeed to state where you are coming from or going to if there is no allegation made.
This is where the Driving licence comes into play.
If you fail or refuse to produce the driving license your name can be demanded, of course if you produce the said licence the name and address can then be seen.

Funny enough there is no power to demand a name or address for failing to produce a certificate of Insurance or exemption under Sec 69 of the principle act.
The only power is under Sec 69 subsection 3 whereby you produce it but refuse or fail to allow the Garda to examine it.

For that reason you will, or should I say should always be demanded to produce your driving licence and certificate of insurance or exemption at the one time

Busted Flat.

Popescu wrote: »

Correct. American police cannot demand answers from a citizen unless he arrests you with a Miranda warning that you need not answer any questions anyway.

Depends on what colour you are and where you live. Try and learn a few things about the cops in the US. For example look at the pictures and photos that the NYPD asked people to send in to improve their image. Backfired big time.

Little CuChulainn

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Funny enough there is no power to demand a name or address for failing to produce a certificate of Insurance or exemption under Sec 69 of the principle act.
The only power is under Sec 69 subsection 3 whereby you produce it but refuse or fail to allow the Garda to examine it.

What about section 107?

Snake

I was stopped and randomly searched once... Stopped and asked the same questions twice... It's no biggie... Was pretty weird them searching me mind.. But not like I cared don't break the law so search away

timmy4u2

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What about section 107?

You will note that I stated "where no allegation has been made."
Sec 107 applies to a situation where the Garda Suspects that such person HAS committed a SPECIFIED offence under the Act.

This does not apply to a casual stop and question.

In fact the Road Traffic no 2 Act of 2011 that ammended section 107( primarily to include new legislation along with the introduction of a Learner Permit and the introduction of the power to demand Date of Birth) goes a bit stronger than the Principle Act and states "lawfully demanded"
With Section 9 of the CJA (Public Order Act 1994) it is an offence for anybody, and that does not exclude Gardai, to wilfully obstruct any body.
This section has to be there to take cognisance of Art 40.3 of the Constitution.

Little CuChulainn

timmy4u2 wrote: »

You will note that I stated "where no allegation has been made."
Sec 107 applies to a situation where the Garda Suspects that such person HAS committed a SPECIFIED offence under the Act.

This does not apply to a casual stop and question.

I'm just finding your logic a bit difficult to follow. A person has ten days to produce their insurance so the only reason the Garda would be making a demand in such a case would be if they believed the vehicle was not insured in which case section 107 would be used.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

In fact the Road Traffic no 2 Act of 2011 that ammended section 107( primarily to include new legislation along with the introduction of a Learner Permit and the introduction of the power to demand Date of Birth) goes a bit stronger than the Principle Act and states "lawfully demanded"

No it doesn't.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

With Section 9 of the CJA (Public Order Act 1994) it is an offence for anybody, and that does not exclude Gardai, to wilfully obstruct any body.
This section has to be there to take cognisance of Art 40.3 of the Constitution.

What relevance is this?

timmy4u2

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'm just finding your logic a bit difficult to follow. A person has ten days to produce their insurance so the only reason the Garda would be making a demand in such a case would be if they believed the vehicle was not insured in which case section 107 would be used.



No it doesn't.



What relevance is this?

Just read it. It is easy to find.

Perhaps I should have gone a stage further and restated that it refers to the demand under section 40 of the Principle Act and Sec 107 applies to a specific offence under the principle Act.

insubsection(7),bysubstitutingforparagraph(b)the following: “(b)apersonwho,whenhisorhernameandaddress anddateofbirtharelawfullydemandedofhim orherbyamemberoftheGardaSíochána underthissection,refusesorfailstogivetothe memberhisorhernameandaddressanddate ofbirthorgivestothememberanameor addressordateofbirthwhichthememberhas reasonablegroundsforbelievingtobefalse

That should be clearer and sorry about the manner in which the paste worked out:)
As regards the production of Insurance or exemption this is not based on a suspicion that the certificate is not in existence; thankfully the presumption of innocence permiates such powers.

If you cannot figure out how the Constitution affects our every day right to freedom etc I am afraid I cannot be of further assistance to you.

Little CuChulainn

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Just read it. It is easy to find.

Perhaps I should have gone a stage further and restated that it refers to the demand under section 40 of the Principle Act and Sec 107 applies to a specific offence under the principle Act.

Yeah you could be a little clearer alright. We were talking about section 107 and you referred to an amendment under section 107 that doesn't exist. I presume you mixed up which section was amended. So section 7 doesn't require a lawful demand, it only requires that a suspicion of an offence under the act being committed, not just an offence under Section 40.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

That should be clearer and sorry about the manner in which the paste worked out:)
As regards the production of Insurance or exemption this is not based on a suspicion that the certificate is not in existence; thankfully the presumption of innocence permiates such powers.

There is a specific provision in section 40 as it is required to have a licence on your person. There is no such requirement under to carry insurance documentation so the provision under section 107 is sufficient. Although if I understand you correctly you are saying that a Garda can demand you produce your insurance but cannot actually demand your details to check that you have produced it.

timmy4u2 wrote: »

If you cannot figure out how the Constitution affects our every day right to freedom etc I am afraid I cannot be of further assistance to you.

I'm just wondering why you brought it up.

timmy4u2

OK I will give a quick summary.
Section 107 does not stand on it own. The power to demand a name and address, and now also a date of birth has to be based on reasonable grounds for believing, suspecting that a specific offence under the Act has been committed.

Therefore the power to demand information conferred under section 107 of the Act is inextricably linked to a suspicion-and it goes without saying that such suspicion has to be based on reasonable and credible grounds- that an offence under the Princible Act HAS been committed.

Section 107 (1) Where a member of the Garda Síochána alleges to a person using a mechanically propelled vehicle that the member suspects that such person has committed a specified offence under this Act, the member may demand of such person his name and address .................

In our example this is based on Section 40 of the principle(Driving Licence) Act and in particular the 2011 amendment to this section at Subsection 7 (b) that specifies LAWFULLY DEMANDED.
As regards the Section 56(insurance) Issue and Sec 69 power to demand as amended by Sec 73 of 2010 Act there is no power to demand a name and address unless you produce it there and then but do not allow it to be examined or ditto at a designated Garda Station.

73.— Section 69 of the Principal Act is amended by substituting for subsections (3) to (5) the following:

“(3) Where a person produces under this section a certificate to a member of the Garda Síochána but refuses or fails to permit the member to read and examine it, he or she commits an offence and the member may demand of him or her his or her name and address and date of birth.

(4) Where a person whose name and address or date of birth is demanded under subsection (3) refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which is false or misleading, he or she commits an offence.

(5) A member of the Garda Síochána may arrest without warrant—

(a) a person who under this section provides a certificate but refuses or fails to permit the member to read and examine it, or

(b) a person who, when his or her name and address or date of birth is demanded of him or her by the member under this section, refuses or fails to give his or her name and address or date of birth or gives a name or address or date of birth which the member has reasonable grounds for believing to be false or misleading.”.

Hence the necessity to demand the driving Licence at the same time as the certif I cate of Insurance or exemption/guarantee.

Since the regulations requiring that an insurance Disc has to be displayed on the windscreen perhaps it could be sufficient for a Garda to have reasonable grounds for suspecting that the vehicle is uninsured for a section 107 demand but then a disc is not required to be displayed until 10 days after the authentication of the cert.
Perhaps he could also go on the record held on the Pulse system as insurance companies are obliged to inform Gardai within seven days of all new policies or cancellations