Expired provisional license

FullblownRose

Hello,

I would really apreciate a definite answer, if anyone knows this for certain!

Does driving with an expired provisional license render your insurance policy invalid?

TimeToShine

Yes. Renewing it is quick and easy so get down to the motor tax office and sort it out.

coylemj

TimeToShine wrote: »

Yes. Renewing it is quick and easy so get down to the motor tax office and sort it out.

No it does not. Your insurance doesn't lapse when your driving licence (full or provisional or learner permit) expires. The only issue concerning a driving licence which will render your insurance void is if you are disqualified from driving. Simply 'having held a licence' is sufficient on all motor policies where the individual is a named driver or the policy is in their own name.

And the motor tax offices don't do driving licences anymore, you really haven't a clue do you?

FullblownRose

I've applied for my driving test and applied for a renewed provisional license or learner permit (whichever one it is called). I agree it is quick and easy but you need time and money at your disposal.

For anyone who is reading this and needs to renew their own license: the new centres where you go to apply to renew your license operate on a walk-in basis. You don't need to book an appointment.
If you look at their website it is very misleading and tells you that you need to make an apointment but that you can't make an appointment by 'phone or email, and you have to book a 'slot' through the website. There is a drop-down menu for the various centres and most of them seem to be booked up for fourteen days with no option to make an appointment after that time. I'm just mentioning it in case it helps anyone else.

Lmklad

No licence = no insurance unless you get specific written confirmation from your insurance company it is as the discretion of the insurance company, read the booklet that came with your policy. That will tell you. Also insurance companies have an inbuilt get out clause if an unaccompanied driver is involved in a collision.

FullblownRose

Thank you but the paperwork says ''...holds or has ever held a license'' or something along those lines .

the_syco

FullblownRose wrote: »

Does driving with an expired provisional license render your insurance policy invalid?

FullblownRose wrote: »

Thank you but the paperwork says ''...holds or has ever held a license'' or something along those lines .

If you drive without someone who has had their full license for 6 months, I'm pretty sure you're not covered. In saying that, I think by law they have to cover the other party and not you should you be involved in an accident, but I'm not 100% about that.

coylemj

If you are the policyholder or a named driver you do NOT have to have a current licence, just that you held a licence at some stage in the past and are not disqualified. That applies to every motor policy document that I have ever read and thanks to the constant peddling of misinformation on boards.ie I have read most of them to debunk this urban myth.

If you disagree, please tell me which insurance company imposes that imaginary restriction. There isn't any.

Ken.

the_syco wrote: »

If you drive without someone who has had their full license for 6 months, I'm pretty sure you're not covered. In saying that, I think by law they have to cover the other party and not you should you be involved in an accident, but I'm not 100% about that.

They do and then they'd sue you to recoup their costs.

the_syco

coylemj wrote: »

That applies to every motor policy document that I have ever read and thanks to the constant peddling of misinformation on boards.ie I have read most of them to debunk this urban myth.

Asgard (unwritten by lloyds) states that you must have a valid driving license. I'm assuming by valid, they mean in date.

ken wrote: »

They do and then they'd sue you to recoup their costs.

Good to know.

coylemj

the_syco wrote: »

Asgard (unwritten by lloyds) states that you must have a valid driving license. I'm assuming by valid, they mean in date.

The bottom line is that the licence being expired would not affect third party cover, regardless of what they put into the policy document. Various insurance companies have attempted to put unenforceable conditions into their policy documents, including that the car has to have a valid NCT cert. Over time the regulator tells them that they cannot include such conditions and they are removed from the policy document.

Insurance companies who cover mobile phones and gadgets are well known for having all sorts of conditions which allows them to weasel their way out of paying claims. There's far tighter control in the motor sector so that kind of carry-on is not allowed.

The principle that you are covered at one minute to midnight and your cover lapses two minutes later because your licence is expired is clearly ludicrous so it simply is not allowed.

Pro Hoc Vice

Lmklad wrote: »

No licence = no insurance unless you get specific written confirmation from your insurance company it is as the discretion of the insurance company, read the booklet that came with your policy. That will tell you. Also insurance companies have an inbuilt get out clause if an unaccompanied driver is involved in a collision.

No their are insurance regulations a prohibited term for third party insurance is that a licence exists. Third party claims will have to be paid.

seagull

FullblownRose wrote: »

Thank you but the paperwork says ''...holds or has ever held a license'' or something along those lines .

Except we're talking about a provisional rather than full license here. That might just make a difference.

coylemj

seagull wrote: »

Except we're talking about a provisional rather than full license here. That might just make a difference.

No, where insurance companies mean full licence, they say so.

For example in the Liberty policy document, under 'General Conditions' they say....

We will not cover the driver unless they hold a valid licence to drive the vehicle, or have held and are not disqualified from holding or getting a licence.

But in the explanation of cover under 'driving other cars', it says the following...

If your certificate of insurance says so, we will also cover you, the policyholder, for your liability to other people while you are driving any other private motor car which you do not own or have not hired or leased, as long as:

...

2. you currently hold a full European Union (EU) licence;

...

Pro Hoc Vice

seagull wrote: »

Except we're talking about a provisional rather than full license here. That might just make a difference.

There is no such thing in Ireland as a Provisional licence, there is a learner a permit.

the_syco

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

There is no such thing in Ireland as a Provisional licence, there is a learner a permit.

I do wonder now that it's called a learner permit, can is still be used? It should be, but I do wonder.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

FullblownRose

The name changed from provisional license to learner permit not so long ago, they essentially mean the same thing.

huskerdu

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Its more than semantics.

The name was changed to learner permit to avoid the use of the term license, for a learner driver.

e.g. The T&Cs previously quoted in this thread refer to "have held a license".
and hold a "valid license".

The learner permit is not a license.

FullblownRose

Solicitors so far have still called it a 'provisional'..interesting...

lollsangel

I was driving from start of last octobet to xmas eve without a license (and a photocopy of , y insurance disc) I checked with the company if I was still covered and they said I was, however they wouldn't issue my new disc until I produced my valid driving license

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

FullblownRose

@Fred, no, not yet. It has not 'come up' in court yet.

Pro Hoc Vice

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

On what issue?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Pro Hoc Vice

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There is no need to do so, as I said earlier it is a prohibited condition of third party insurance to require a driving licence, so any driver licence or not as long as a policy of insurance is in place has third party cover, so how can they not have insurance.


PROHIBITED CONDITIONS


(f) by limiting the cover to cases where the person driving a vehicle either holds a driving licence to drive the vehicle or having held such a licence has not been disqualified for holding it,

In 1987

4. The First Schedule to the Road Traffic (Compulsory Insurance) Regulations, 1962 is hereby amended by the insertion in paragraph (2) after sub-paragraph (h) of the following—

"(i) by specifying that the vehicle must not have been stolen or obtained by violence or taken without the consent of the owner or other lawful authority.
The conditions referred to at (e), (f) and (g) of paragraph (2) shall provide that the limitations or restrictions shall not apply as respects a claim by a person to recover moneys from the insurer under section 76 of the Act."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055806731&page=3

See post #41

coylemj

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

PROHIBITED CONDITIONS


(f) by limiting the cover to cases where the person driving a vehicle either holds a driving licence to drive the vehicle or having held such a licence has not been disqualified for holding it,

I understand the point you made in your post and I agree with it but that is obviously a misquote - the 'prohibited condition' you quoted is precisely what is and always has been included in every motor policy.


Aviva:

Any person whose driving is covered by the terms of the certificate must hold a licence to drive that vehicle and must meet the conditions and any limits of the driving licence held or, if they have held a licence to drive that vehicle, must not have been disqualified from holding that licence.

Axa

There is no cover for anyone who is disqualified from driving, has never held a driving licence or who is not meeting the conditions of his/her licence/Learner permit.

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

I understand the point you made in your post and I agree with it but that is obviously a misquote - the 'prohibited condition' you quoted is precisely what is and always has been included in every motor policy.


Aviva:

Any person whose driving is covered by the terms of the certificate must hold a licence to drive that vehicle and must meet the conditions and any limits of the driving licence held or, if they have held a licence to drive that vehicle, must not have been disqualified from holding that licence.

Axa

There is no cover for anyone who is disqualified from driving, has never held a driving licence or who is not meeting the conditions of his/her licence/Learner permit.

And in 1987 and after could not effect a claim so insurance exists, as set out better than I in the above link.

A prohibited condition is that a condition that is prohibited by law the 1962 Regs http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1962/en/si/0014.html

If its a misquote then the Legislation is wrong which I doubt it must be the insurance companies. The clause would still have effect for a civil case by the insurance company as against the insured.

coylemj

Strange that after 27 years the insurance companies all include that condition in their policies if they don't apply

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

Strange that after 27 years the insurance companies all include that condition in their policies if they don't apply

But they may apply in a civil claim against the insured, also they are used to beat insured drivers over the head, also may apply to a claim where the insured has crashed hie own car and only causes damage to his own car.

There is only a legal requirement to have third party insurance, which the regs protect.

mitosis

coylemj wrote: »

I understand the point you made in your post and I agree with it but that is obviously a misquote - the 'prohibited condition' you quoted is precisely what is and always has been included in every motor policy.


Aviva:

Any person whose driving is covered by the terms of the certificate must hold a licence to drive that vehicle and must meet the conditions and any limits of the driving licence held or, if they have held a licence to drive that vehicle, must not have been disqualified from holding that licence.

Axa

There is no cover for anyone who is disqualified from driving, has never held a driving licence or who is not meeting the conditions of his/her licence/Learner permit.

OP has never held a driving licence. OP had a permit to learn.

Pro Hoc Vice

mitosis wrote: »

OP has never held a driving licence. OP had a permit to learn.

And for insurance cover he is still covered.

coylemj

mitosis wrote: »

OP has never held a driving licence. OP had a permit to learn.

If you bothered to read some of the motor insurance policy documents and stopped trolling with that hair-splitting nonsense, you'd quickly realise that where they mean a full driving licence, they explicitly say so.

the_syco

coylemj wrote: »

they explicitly say so.

Actually, they don't. Also, I don't think their T&C's can get around what they have to do by law.

FullblownRose

Someone has said they confirmed with their insurance company that they were still covered when their learner permit had expired.