Forester 2.5 XT on LPG?

curiousb

I am thinking of changing car and a Forester 2.5XT has caught my eye. I haven't been to see it yet, but I would be interested in getting it (or whatever I end up getting) converted to run on LPG.

There is an LPG filling station close to me in Bray, I have read the thread on LPG and I definitely like the idea, but am wondering would it be advisable in this car?

It wouldn't be feasible otherwise as it's too thirsty for me running on petrol, but would be fine on lpg.

I'd appreciate any advice or tips.

georgefalls

Would the savings made on using LPG, outweigh the huge amount of road tax.?

If yes, then its a no brainer. Do it..!

curiousb

Well I'm driving a 2 litre at the moment so about €300 extra, so that would be well covered.

georgefalls

Answered your own question then.
Those Foresters are a nice motor.:)

cletus

Whats the cost of lpg conversion

curiousb

According to LPGain in Tallaght, from €800 - €1,300, depending on the kit and components chosen.

The more expensive one is Prins, cheaper options are Stag (I think).

georgefalls

So:
Age of the car, how long you're planning to keep it. Versus. Cost of conversion, savings in fuel.

If the sums add up in your favour, then do it

curiousb

I'd be looking at keeping it long term (3-5 years for me). A quick calculation shows me I would save approx €50 per month over my current spend and mileage, so it pays for itself in approx 2 years. Then there is a saving of approx €300 per year, once you take into account the extra tax I will be paying for the bigger engine.

And I will be driving a seriously nice motor

Cuddlesworth

I have a 05 xt. It manages around 26-28 mpg motorway driving at 90kph. Low twentys during normal driving.

I can't see how the LPG conversion would save you money. There is far more likley to go wrong with the forester.

curiousb

The saving is in the price differential between petrol and LPG, which is about 70c per litre, so in terms of fuel costs it is considerable.

Why would you say there is more to go wrong with the Forester? This is my concern, in that it is a high performance engine and I would not like to make short term savings only to destroy the engine!

Cuddlesworth

curiousb wrote: »

The saving is in the price differential between petrol and LPG, which is about 70c per litre, so in terms of fuel costs it is considerable.

Why would you say there is more to go wrong with the Forester? This is my concern, in that it is a high performance engine and I would not like to make short term savings only to destroy the engine!

My car is worth around 3k at best with a full service history at 120k(the ones on donedeal atm are dreamers). I'm pretty sure that the front and rear differential have seen better days, front is definitely on the way out from the torque bind thats happening. The powersteering pump is going as well. The car is really noisy at motorway speeds but great fun to drive.

I just can't see it worth investing that much money in to get better milage over 5 years. The car itself will be worthless in another year or two with the tax increases and with a engine and transmission like it has when something goes it will cost huge money to fix. You will be tied into a bad investment.

curiousb

Good points...

I agree about the big prices. I'm looking at an 06 for 6.4k, which I would want to be getting at a lower price. I would get it fully checked to make sure all is ok at the moment, but down the line could be expensive repairs.

But as you say, fun to drive! I have driven a non turbo 2litre version and it is quite boring.

Cuddlesworth

curiousb wrote: »

Good points...

I agree about the big prices. I'm looking at an 06 for 6.4k, which I would want to be getting at a lower price. I would get it fully checked to make sure all is ok at the moment, but down the line could be expensive repairs.

But as you say, fun to drive! I have driven a non turbo 2litre version and it is quite boring.

Yeah, not sure what is going on with the prices. There were around 6 of them last August for between 2.5k and 3.5k. I'm considering offloading mine now.

walus

curiousb wrote: »

Good points...

I agree about the big prices. I'm looking at an 06 for 6.4k, which I would want to be getting at a lower price. I would get it fully checked to make sure all is ok at the moment, but down the line could be expensive repairs.

But as you say, fun to drive! I have driven a non turbo 2litre version and it is quite boring.

LPG on 2.5XT requires a top notch installation and maintenance. You need to remember to regularly check and adjust valve clearances (every 20-30k km) and literally service the car and the LPG gear meticulously. There is a huge cost involved if you don't.
I'd seriously doubt it altogether makes any financial sense.

curiousb

I've no problem with the proper servicing, i tend to look after my cars, but I am having second thoughts on the overall financial sense of it.

I like the Subaru AWD system and am also looking at a 2 litre Legacy estate tomorrow.

walus

curiousb wrote: »

I've no problem with the proper servicing, i tend to look after my cars, but I am having second thoughts on the overall financial sense of it.

I like the Subaru AWD system and am also looking at a 2 litre Legacy estate tomorrow.

I owned Legacy for 4 years so know about its issues etc. Drop me a line if you need advice. What car will you be looking at exactly?

curiousb

I'm going to look at a 2001 Legacy B4(?) estate, twin turbo version with 60k miles.

Normally I wouldn't go back that far, but my mechanic owns it and I have known him a long time and trust him. He owned it for the past 4-5 years and it has been off the road for the last 1-2 years.

Going for about €1,000.

There's definitely something appealing about going for a cheap car, if it is from a known source

walus

curiousb wrote: »

I'm going to look at a 2001 Legacy B4(?) estate, twin turbo version with 60k miles.

Normally I wouldn't go back that far, but my mechanic owns it and I have known him a long time and trust him. He owned it for the past 4-5 years and it has been off the road for the last 1-2 years.

Going for about €1,000.

There's definitely something appealing about going for a cheap car, if it is from a known source

I agree. That one will keep the smile on your face all the time...and empty pockets . Go for it if you know its history.

bigroad

Some Subarus have a problem with burning the exhaust valve when converted to lpg .As far as i have read that more robust valves should be installed to cope with the higher temp that the lpg burns at.

74merc

I'm not sure if it applies to the Forester, but I know that the 2.5 turbo engine in the Impreza has issues with pistons or conrods.

curiousb

Same engine I think...

walus

I think that LPG and Subaru do not go well together in general. It would have to be the 2.0 and 2.5 sohc engines for it to be reasonably easy to keep the cost of servicing and maintenance under control.

curiousb

That's an Outback on donedeal at the moment already converted I might check out also. Overpriced at the moment though I think.

walus

From what I know the best engine to convert to LPG is the 3.0 H6. It still requires high level of maintenance but the engine does not mind LPG and still has plenty of power. You need to pull out the engine to adjust valves though. 2.5 turbo and LPG is worst option you can have.

stimpson

.

stimpson

This site says that Scoobies don't like LPG at all...

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/VSR.html

How about this as an alternative?

http://www.autotrader.ie/search/Volvo/XC90/90-SERIE/201413222696293/advert?channel=CARS

curiousb

That's an interesting read, thanks for the link.

The Volvo looks good and would probably be a good car to convert. Might check it out further.

stimpson

I have an LPG'd 2.0 S60 and love it. The 5 pot Volvo engines are lovely to drive.

I'd be happy to show you the work done on mine - you're probably fairly local to my work.

curiousb

stimpson wrote: »

I have an LPG'd 2.0 S60 and love it. The 5 pot Volvo engines are lovely to drive.

I'd be happy to show you the work done on mine - you're probably fairly local to my work.

Who are you insured with? We have been rang the AA to get quotes and so far, once you mention LGP, it is a modification and they won't touch it!

stimpson

Glennons are my brokers - http://www.glennons.ie/personal/insurance/motor-insurance/

All the underwriters wanted was a cert from LPGain which I scanned in and emailed. They were great to deal with. No increase in premium.

curiousb

We also rang Glennons as I had seen their name mentioned on another thread and they won't touch it either!

Maybe if you are already with a company they will do it, but not for new policies.

Aviva said if we had already been with them they would consider it, but definitely not for a new policy.

This is so frustrating. Power output is down, emissions are down and they don't want to know.

I have another couple of companies to ring, which have been mentioned on other threads, so fingers crossed.

stimpson

I got my policy with Zurich through Glennons. After they sent out the proposal form I asked them and they just asked for me to send in the cert. It's not a performance modification, so it shouldn't be an issue. Might be worth ringing again and talking to someone else. I'll PM you the details of the girl I was dealing with - might be worth dropping my name.

RS6man

I know Subaru in the UK offered the 2.0r Legacy with an LPG conversion to buy brand new so you should look into that. The 2.0r must be the best engine for an LPG conversion.

From 2007 on they're 168bhp, not super powerful but quick enough and really nice exhaust note. Having previously owned one I can say that they are an excellent car, bulletproof (although mine was not LPG).

2.0r's registered after July 2008 are €1200 to tax so you'd be better off paying €710 a year on a 2007 if you're interested.

curiousb

Wow, big difference in the tax! Worth staying with the older car for that, to be sure.

RS6man

Just read the 2nd page of the thread there and seen you mentioning Outbacks as well. If you want something reasonably fast I'd stay away from them.

I have a 2.5 at the moment and it's fairly slow! It has the same power output as the 2.0r Legacy but it's a much bigger car and it's also €370 a year more on tax.

Other than that they're a super car, very reliable, well spec'd and loads of room.

curiousb

That's interesting to know. I'm far from a boy racer but I do like a 'responsive' car!

I prefer the Legacy as it's very understated and normal looking.

74merc

I've got an Outback 3.0R which I converted to gas, and have had no issues so far, in about 25K miles. I've heard that valve clearances do need to be adjusted as the engine has solid lifters but that would be the case LPG or not. I seriously doubt if it is an engine out job. Subarus do all seem to suffer from sticky brakes and rusty exhausts but are otherwise very reliable.

curiousb

Ouch for the tax We had a 3 litre merc a few years ago and the tax was a killer then....

Glad to hear it's working out for you. What would be your MPG (petrol equivalent)?

walus

74merc wrote: »

I've got an Outback 3.0R which I converted to gas, and have had no issues so far, in about 25K miles. I've heard that valve clearances do need to be adjusted as the engine has solid lifters but that would be the case LPG or not. I seriously doubt if it is an engine out job. Subarus do all seem to suffer from sticky brakes and rusty exhausts but are otherwise very reliable.

Running on petrol only you need to do valve clearances every 80-100k miles. Once on LPG it needs to be done every 20-30k miles at a stretch. So 25k that you did on LPG is really not a lot to state how this engine does on LPG. Not adjusting valves on time is very costly on those engines. And yes the engine needs to be out on these to do the valves.

74merc

curiousb wrote: »

Ouch for the tax We had a 3 litre merc a few years ago and the tax was a killer then....

Glad to hear it's working out for you. What would be your MPG (petrol equivalent)?

I'm doing short journeys at the minute and live in a hilly area so I'm currently averaging about 19.5 MPG on gas which is roughly equivalent to about 35 MPG on petrol. When I had a longer commute I got about 25 MPG on gas.

74merc

walus wrote: »

Running on petrol only you need to do valve clearances every 80-100k miles. Once on LPG it needs to be done every 20-30k miles at a stretch. So 25k that you did on LPG is really not a lot to state how this engine does on LPG. Not adjusting valves on time is very costly on those engines. And yes the engine needs to be out on these to do the valves.

Interesting, I must do a bit of research on this.

Cuddlesworth

curiousb wrote: »

That's interesting to know. I'm far from a boy racer but I do like a 'responsive' car!

Forester might be out then, the turbo lag puts it more into the "unpredictable" group then the "responsive" group.

74merc

Well, I've found that it's not an engine out job to adjust the valve clearances, if you have the special Subaru tool for the job.

74merc

I spoke to a company that does motorsport preparation for Subaru Imprezas as well as general servicing etc. They had an Outback (no LPG) which burnt a valve due to valve clearances at 70K miles and another a few thousand miles later. Generally they would take the engine out to adjust valve clearances as the Impreza runs the same setup, albeit with 2 fewer cylinders.
I then spoke to the company that converted my car to gas. They look after a 210K mile 3.0 litre Outback which has been running on gas since 26K miles. It doesn't run Flashlube and in all that time it hasn't needed valve clearances adjusted.
Should they need to be adjusted, they can do it with the engine in situ.
Apparently the car will get hard to start whenever the clearances close up. Also, when they service the LPG system, they can tell from the manifold pressure data recorded that the clearances need to be done.
They have advised me to do nothing until I get the symptoms described above.
So it would seem to be a case of being lucky or unlucky.

walus

74merc wrote: »

I spoke to a company that does motorsport preparation for Subaru Imprezas as well as general servicing etc. They had an Outback (no LPG) which burnt a valve due to valve clearances at 70K miles and another a few thousand miles later. Generally they would take the engine out to adjust valve clearances as the Impreza runs the same setup, albeit with 2 fewer cylinders.
I then spoke to the company that converted my car to gas. They look after a 210K mile 3.0 litre Outback which has been running on gas since 26K miles. It doesn't run Flashlube and in all that time it hasn't needed valve clearances adjusted.
Should they need to be adjusted, they can do it with the engine in situ.
Apparently the car will get hard to start whenever the clearances close up. Also, when they service the LPG system, they can tell from the manifold pressure data recorded that the clearances need to be done.
They have advised me to do nothing until I get the symptoms described above.
So it would seem to be a case of being lucky or unlucky.

Looks like they know what they are talking about. Running a LPG on Subaru is very tricky. Hopefully they will keep your motor for many more miles of hassle free motoring!

74merc

Agreed, it's key to find a good installer who knows what they are doing and has experience of the type of car you are getting converted. A lot of issues arise from engines running lean on gas under load due to poor mapping. The more sophisticated kits will inject petrol as well as gas to prevent this from happening.
That said, I wouldn't be put off converting a Forester XT to gas, other than the issues with pistons and conrods.

walus

74merc wrote: »

Agreed, it's key to find a good installer who knows what they are doing and has experience of the type of car you are getting converted. A lot of issues arise from engines running lean on gas under load due to poor mapping. The more sophisticated kits will inject petrol as well as gas to prevent this from happening.
That said, I wouldn't be put off converting a Forester XT to gas, other than the issues with pistons and conrods.

The 2.5 T engines blow head gaskets frequently as well and there is no reliable fix to that problem. I'd imagine that doing the LPG on this engine would be far more difficult than on the super reliable 3.0 NA.

curiousb

74merc wrote: »

Agreed, it's key to find a good installer who knows what they are doing and has experience of the type of car you are getting converted. A lot of issues arise from engines running lean on gas under load due to poor mapping. The more sophisticated kits will inject petrol as well as gas to prevent this from happening.
That said, I wouldn't be put off converting a Forester XT to gas, other than the issues with pistons and conrods.

Who did your LPG install 74merc? I've talked to one company so far who have converted a few Subarus.

74merc

AGS in Craigavon, Co Armagh. The owner has a 400bhp Impreza on gas, so they know Subarus!