Buying a dairy stock bull

dungfly

Any advice for buying a dairy stock bull (Friesian-Holstein). I know its a major decision and want to approach it right.

mahoney_j

dungfly wrote: »

Any advice for buying a dairy stock bull (Friesian-Holstein). I know its a major decision and want to approach it right.

The usual ,ebi andvits breakdown for fertility and milk.also at least 25 kg combined solids .make sure he is pbr and fertility tested and Ibr vaccinated.look for milk records of dam also.i happen to know someone who is selling some nice feb 13 born bulls at the minute and I'm fairly sure there's another lad up in Meath who has a few as well!!

dungfly

They say that you should look at where you are (i.e. what flaws you herd has) and where you want to get to (i.e. the ideal herd). How is this assessment done?

PM me the contact details.

biddy2013

if you look at your herd icbf report it will give the top 10%-i think- for each category and where your herd is , i would work from that. From having bought bulls over the years alot of what the farmer tells you is pie in the sky have a look around at the cows/stock they have and you will get a good idea for yourself, tbh if people are selling good stock they shouldnt need to advertise

stop thelights

dungfly wrote: »

Any advice for buying a dairy stock bull (Friesian-Holstein). I know its a major decision and want to approach it right.

The rest have really covered what you need to look for in the previous posts.

One point I'd like to make and I would like to hear what other posters views on it are to make sure that the dam of the bull is realitivley old cow. As in the dam is one that has done a good few la actions, still in the herd, which means that the cow probably has been a healthy consistent performer which should prove well for the stock bull.

dungfly

stop thelights wrote: »

The rest have really covered what you need to look for in the previous posts.

One point I'd like to make and I would like to hear what other posters views on it are to make sure that the dam of the bull is realitivley old cow. As in the dam is one that has done a good few la actions, still in the herd, which means that the cow probably has been a healthy consistent performer which should prove well for the stock bull.

I think this is a very important point. Its like looking at proven bulls using actual data vrs genomics. Genomics claims to predict earlier in the like of the bull, but even advocates advise the use of a team of multiple bulls due to relatively high risk associated with a shorter (if any) track record.

Any advice on looking at the bulls ancestors?

Gillespy

Unless you have knowledge of bulls and cow families, look at the basics, their calving record, performance and classification. I like to see longevity in a bull's family, rarity today and getting more so with the way genomics and embryo work can be done.

dungfly

Gillespy wrote: »

Unless you have knowledge of bulls and cow families, look at the basics, their calving record, performance and classification. I like to see longevity in a bull's family, rarity today and getting more so with the way genomics and embryo work can be done.

What do you have to say regards classification and genomics?

Bactidiaryl

dungfly wrote: »

What do you have to say regards classification and genomics?

LIC in Nz have used over 25% genomic bull doses in the past season. That says a lot given their track record.

frazzledhome

dungfly wrote: »

Any advice for buying a dairy stock bull (Friesian-Holstein). I know its a major decision and want to approach it right.

Use AI and get 2 bulls from some guy stuck with a shed if Fresians and of course sell their offspring

case 956

what ratio of cow to bull do ye use after ai? I know it off topic

dungfly

frazzledhome wrote: »

Use AI and get 2 bulls from some guy stuck with a shed if Fresians and of course sell their offspring

Not sure what you mean here?

sheebadog

frazzledhome wrote: »

Use AI and get 2 bulls from some guy stuck with a shed if Fresians and of course sell their offspring

Now now down with that kind of thing!

Gillespy

dungfly wrote: »

Not sure what you mean here?

Ignore it, trying to be too smart.

Even if you do end up selling them, you should do your best to get a good quality bull. They're out there. Stock bulls have been known to make good cows, cows anyone would be proud to own.

frazzledhome

dungfly wrote: »

Not sure what you mean here?

I mean is use AI for all your females. If you need a bull to mop up get a cheap one with four legs and a tool as you shouldn't be keeping his offspring.

frazzledhome

Gillespy wrote: »

Ignore it, trying to be too smart.

Even if you do end up selling them, you should do your best to get a good quality bull. They're out there. Stock bulls have been known to make good cows, cows anyone would be proud to own.

No don't mean to be smart and I agree stock bulls do occasionally make good stock but very occasionally.

I'm trying to reinforce the importance of AI and get rid of any non AI stock

I presume you've stick bulls for sale?

Gillespy

You presume wrong. I don't sell any bulls.

AI, I'm a huge fan off, but when I see them side by side with stock bull heifers in the parlour I can't help but feel it's very overrated or more accurately put, stock bulls are underrated.

frazzledhome

Gillespy wrote: »

You presume wrong. I don't sell any bulls.

AI, I'm a huge fan off, but when I see them side by side with stock bull heifers in the parlour I can't help but feel it's very overrated or more accurately put, stock bulls are underrated.

Do you have a regular source for your s bulls. I presume you use to clean up. I've no faith in them as I found their daughters were the ones with the most problems and therefore leaving the herd earlier than others.

I use mop up bulls but sell all daughters to a guy who knows exactly what he's getting

Gillespy

Not surprised they're a failure given your criteria for selecting one in the first place.

Bellview

dungfly wrote: »

Any advice for buying a dairy stock bull (Friesian-Holstein). I know its a major decision and want to approach it right.

Use ai with sexed semen if possible and look at beef bull as sell calves. The day you buy the beef bull is the day you sell his calves as crap bulls generally breed crap. You will also get more than one season. He and aa have shorter gestation will help tidy up calving

frazzledhome

Gillespy wrote: »

Not surprised they're a failure given your criteria for selecting one in the first place.

I bought top of the range for years and honestly the difference isn't enough to justify the spend, so all stock bull offspring get the gate

Milked out

frazzledhome wrote: »

Do you have a regular source for your s bulls. I presume you use to clean up. I've no faith in them as I found their daughters were the ones with the most problems and therefore leaving the herd earlier than others.

I use mop up bulls but sell all daughters to a guy who knows exactly what he's getting

If a bull is bought to clean up with a high genomically proven ebi, would he not be the same as any genomic Ai sire with no calves on the ground? Or do you use all proven bulls or is it the time of year which the calves will be born is the issue?

frazzledhome

Milked out wrote: »

If a bull is bought to clean up with a high genomically proven ebi, would he not be the same as any genomic Ai sire with no calves on the ground? Or do you use all proven bulls or is it the time of year which the calves will be born is the issue?

Good point, timing with me

dungfly

frazzledhome wrote: »

I mean is use AI for all your females. If you need a bull to mop up get a cheap one with four legs and a tool as you shouldn't be keeping his offspring.

I would not agree with using just a cheap stock bull and selling the offspring. I am more interested in breeding for genetic gain where ever possible. Therefore off spring from stock bull can be sold for a premium regardless. How do you assess a bull?

Deepsouthwest

dungfly wrote: »

I would not agree with using just a cheap stock bull and selling the offspring. I am more interested in breeding for genetic gain where ever possible. Therefore off spring from stock bull can be sold for a premium regardless. How do you assess a bull?

If ur looking for genetic gain, then u should be going down the AI route and not looking for a stock bull. Sell heifers here every yr, and the first question asked is always ' are they all AI bred?'

stanflt

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

If ur looking for genetic gain, then u should be going down the AI route and not looking for a stock bull. Sell heifers here every yr, and the first question asked is always ' are they all AI bred?'

I reckon I've some stock bulls better than those avail in ai
More complete in all aspects rather than good in one or two

biddy2013

stanflt wrote: »

I reckon I've some stock bulls better than those avail in ai
More complete in all aspects rather than good in one or two

how many years would they last?

Deepsouthwest

stanflt wrote: »

I reckon I've some stock bulls better than those avail in ai
More complete in all aspects rather than good in one or two

I'm sure u do, but if u buy a bull with only one poor genetic trait, be it poor feet, low protein, bad scc, temperament etc and u breed this right through ur whole herd and heifers how many yrs will u be trying to breed such a fault back out? I know thats a bit of an extreme example, and I'm not saying all AI bulls are great, far from it, but at least ur using a host of different bulls and spreading the risk