Scotland & Northern Ireland

Smiles35

Will a vote for joining Scotlands parlement be on the ballot when ''Judgement Day'' comes to the north?

Ok, it sounds crazy, but I like that idea best of all. I get a headache everytime I look up at that place, I'm sure many in England do too when they look over.

Can we just change the hand that's involved most?

orangesoda

I would have no problem with forging a union with Scotland as we have a relationship that goes back thousands of years but i doubt it would ever happen. surely posting on a norn ireland forum isn't doing any good for your headaches?

William F

That's an interesting perspective op.

migozarad

Re-partition (east of the Bann) will be the Unionists next card to play in about 15 years when the electorate will be majority Natiionalist background and the southern economy will have long returned to rude health.
A SF First Minister,tricolours over council buildings,clampdown on Orangeism in all its ugly guises,Irish language act(s) and GAA penetrating former Unionist heartlands all on the way in the next few decades.The pace of change may be glacial but "our day will come".

Richard

migozarad wrote: »

Re-partition (east of the Bann)

Won't happen.

will be the Unionists next card to play

This will not get Unionist support

in about 15 years when the electorate will be majority Natiionalist background

Highly unlikely.

and the southern economy will have long returned to rude health.

Maybe

A SF First Minister

It's certainly possible

tricolours over council buildings

Unlikely.

clampdown on Orangeism in all its ugly guises

Not sure what you mean

Irish language act(s)

It's possible

and GAA penetrating former Unionist heartlands all on the way in the next few decades.

If they continue to be more inclusive, it's certainly possible.

The pace of change may be glacial but "our day will come".

The only way a United Ireland will come about is if you stop thinking about "them" and "us". An agreed Ireland will be inclusive and there certainly won't be a Tricolour as a national flag. I know what you'll say it stands for, but it doesn't mean that to a lot of people in NI.

If I were you I'd focus on convincing people who currently favour the UK that a UI is for them, rather than plotting their demise.

guttenberg

O/T Scotland going independent could backfire on them. The Scottish islands are looking for their own referendum if Scotland gets independence, which if the islands went it alone, they'd be taking a lot of the oil reserves with them. Scottish independence will definitely unsettle unionists in NI(and throughout UK), but I doubt it'll destroy the UK (or lead to NI pairing up with Scotland)

Fratton Fred

guttenberg wrote: »

O/T Scotland going independent could backfire on them. The Scottish islands are looking for their own referendum if Scotland gets independence, which if the islands went it alone, they'd be taking a lot of the oil reserves with them.)

It isn't going to happen, but I would pmsl if it did.

seachto7

What has the spread of GAA got to do with a united Ireland? It's just a sport.

BrendanHughes1

Richard wrote: »

Won't happen.


This will not get Unionist support


Highly unlikely.


Maybe


It's certainly possible


Unlikely.


Not sure what you mean


It's possible



If they continue to be more inclusive, it's certainly possible.



The only way a United Ireland will come about is if you stop thinking about "them" and "us". An agreed Ireland will be inclusive and there certainly won't be a Tricolour as a national flag. I know what you'll say it stands for, but it doesn't mean that to a lot of people in NI.

If I were you I'd focus on convincing people who currently favour the UK that a UI is for them, rather than plotting their demise.

That's why socialism is key to achieving a united Ireland & why so many mainstream parties are against it.

Iwasfrozen

BrendanHughes1 wrote: »

That's why socialism is key to achieving a united Ireland & why so many mainstream parties are against it.

On the contrary for a united Ireland to work the economy must be strong. A weak unstable socialist economy will breed instability across ethnic lines like it did in the USSR and Yugoslavia.

And that's before you even consider US and European sanctions against us.

Dyr

You're the fella who keeps going on about socialist economies while ignoring the fact that our weak unstable economy is a capitalist one

Strange that

Iwasfrozen

Bambi wrote: »

You're the fella who keeps going on about socialist economies while ignoring the fact that our weak unstable economy is a capitalist one

Strange that

Our economy is only in a bad state compared to what it was pre 2007. Compared to the citizens of the former Eastern Bloc or socialist China we're living like kings. No queuing in line for a loaf of bread for us.

Also it should be noted that our current economic troubles were not caused by any failing in the capitalist system but by the socialization of otherwise private debt.

The Corinthian

orangesoda wrote: »

I would have no problem with forging a union with Scotland as we have a relationship that goes back thousands of years but i doubt it would ever happen.

Do we? Certainly we have a documented relationship with Roman Britain, in terms of limited trading, and later - in the early middle ages - with Wales, as we would go over and raid settlements there (that's essentially how St Pat was introduced to Ireland), but contact with Scotland? Certainly no greater than with England/Wales, and possibly far less.

Could you explain what you mean historically by your statement, or is that just one of those things that are said for effect and propaganda? Serious question.

BrendanHughes1 wrote: »

That's why socialism is key to achieving a united Ireland & why so many mainstream parties are against it.

Yes, socialism; just look at the plumage...

turnikett1

orangesoda wrote: »

I would have no problem with forging a union with Scotland as we have a relationship that goes back thousands of years but i doubt it would ever happen.

I'm gonna say 1,300 years give or take. Still a long time, but no longer than our relationship with England or Wales. These 3 countries being our neighbours and all. That said, I'm not against an equal union of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England. Obviously it being dominated by southern England was inevitable but it's nice to daydream!

As for the OP I don't think Scotland gaining independence will have any real knock on effect for Northern Ireland. Unionists in the North have firmly stated previously that it definitely will have no effect on it and they will stay in the union with no question.

The only way for a united Ireland ever to happen is the majority of Northern Irish citizens - be they Catholic or Protestant - to want and vote for a united Ireland, not hoping for external factors like Scotland leaving the union or even as some people here secretely hope for, "outbreeding" the Protestants. Seriously, that one really gets me. Sitting there with your fingers crossed watching the years tick by in glee as the numbers of Catholics born is greater than those of Protestants It's ridiculous, as far as I recall most Catholics couldn't give a fiddlers fúck and even then a lot of them would prefer the union (and to be honest, I more and more see why they would, unfortunately...)

orangesoda

Yes 1000's of years was a bit of an overestimate on my part I suppose, there is a chance that the settlers at mount sandle fort by the River Bann came from the area of modern Scotland though, the first settlers in that area were 9000 years ago.

I was speaking more of the northern area of Ireland when speaking about the connection, I'm not too sure about the south, there was the Dal Riada kingdom and I recently read that it was Irish Gaels who brought the game of camánacht to Scotland which developed into Shinty, apparently the way the game was played in northern Ireland was more like modern shinty compared to modern hurling.

Then there is the Gallowglases 'foreign gaels', a good few settled in Ulster much as the MacSweeneys and MacDonalds, they were Norse-Gaelic. I also read recently that some Scottish clans claim descent from Ánrothán Ua Néill of Ailech who moved to KinTyre in the 10th century, such as Lamont, MacLachlan, MacNeill and clan Ewin (modern Ewing)

The Corinthian

So when you come down to it, this historical 'relationship' isn't really any more special than the one we have with the Welsh or English.

junder

The Corinthian wrote: »

So when you come down to it, this historical 'relationship' isn't really any more special than the one we have with the Welsh or English.

You never heard of the Ulster - Scots? B-) from my own familys point of view we have a traceable family history going back to the Scottish border lands near Carlisle, belonging as we did to one of the more notorious reiver clans of the area

orangesoda

The Corinthian wrote: »

So when you come down to it, this historical 'relationship' isn't really any more special than the one we have with the Welsh or English.

I would not say it is equally the same, apart from some English during the plantations I don't think northern Ireland had much of a connection to England, an area like Dublin for instance would be different, with it being one of the important cities of the empire.

Busted Flat.

orangesoda wrote: »

Yes 1000's of years was a bit of an overestimate on my part I suppose, there is a chance that the settlers at mount sandle fort by the River Bann came from the area of modern Scotland though, the first settlers in that area were 9000 years ago.

I was speaking more of the northern area of Ireland when speaking about the connection, I'm not too sure about the south, there was the Dal Riada kingdom and I recently read that it was Irish Gaels who brought the game of camánacht to Scotland which developed into Shinty, apparently the way the game was played in northern Ireland was more like modern shinty compared to modern hurling.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Scots_people

Then there is the Gallowglases 'foreign gaels', a good few settled in Ulster much as the MacSweeneys and MacDonalds, they were Norse-Gaelic. I also read recently that some Scottish clans claim descent from Ánrothán Ua Néill of Ailech who moved to KinTyre in the 10th century, such as Lamont, MacLachlan, MacNeill and clan Ewin (modern Ewing)

Its like clinging onto wet sand.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUlster_Scots_people&ei=MMdOU82XDa707AbK5YCYDA&usg=AFQjCNHNECCrUiFfOADK1H5QrYtnAizQ_w&bvm=bv.64764171,d.ZGU

The first major influx of border English and Lowland Scots into Ulster came in the first two decades of the 17th century. Starting in 1609, Scots began arriving into state-sponsored settlements as part of the Plantation of Ulster. This scheme was intended to confiscate all the lands of the Gaelic Irish nobility in Ulster and to settle the province with Protestant Scottish and English colonists. Under this scheme, a substantial number of Scots were settled, mostly in the south and west of Ulster, on confiscated land.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUlster_Scots_dialects&ei=MMdOU82XDa707AbK5YCYDA&usg=AFQjCNHNO7D1pVAcc-SpVEFZxB3B8Cr1aA&bvm=bv.64764171,d.ZGU

It has been claimed that the recent "Ulster-Scots language and heritage cause has been set rolling only out of a sense of cultural rivalry among some Protestants and unionists, keen to counter-balance the onward march of the Irish language movement."[16]

The Corinthian

junder wrote: »

You never heard of the Ulster - Scots? B-) from my own familys point of view we have a traceable family history going back to the Scottish border lands near Carlisle, belonging as we did to one of the more notorious reiver clans of the area

I was more replying to the 'thousands of years' bit.

orangesoda wrote: »

I would not say it is equally the same, apart from some English during the plantations I don't think northern Ireland had much of a connection to England, an area like Dublin for instance would be different, with it being one of the important cities of the empire.

These were the plantations that took place thousands of years ago? Or a thousand years ago? Maybe less?

orangesoda

The Corinthian wrote: »

I was more replying to the 'thousands of years' bit.

These were the plantations that took place thousands of years ago? Or a thousand years ago? Maybe less?

the obvious Plantations, early 17th century

WesternZulu

I think they're will be a lot of confused Unionists up there if in the likely event that Scotland gain independance...after all don't they base most of their identity with their ties to Scotland?

What happens then if Scotland is no longer part of the union.

For that reason alone I hope it happens!

Busted Flat.

orangesoda wrote: »

the obvious Plantations, early 17th century

You can't live on dreams and fairy tails. Move on to the future forget your imaginations about your past. You only have tentative roots in the land that was occupied by your forefathers. If you have Scottish roots seek them out, try and accept your roots and be proud of them. In the country of your forefathers.

orangesoda

Busted Flat. wrote: »

You can't live on dreams and fairy tails. Move on to the future forget your imaginations about your past. You only have tentative roots in the land that was occupied by your forefathers. If you have Scottish roots seek them out, try and accept your roots and be proud of them. In the country of your forefathers.

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here.

chughes

orangesoda wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you're talking about here.

Orange, my interpretation of what Busted is saying here is that those people living in Northern Ireland who come from, and strongly identify with, their Scottish ancestry might care to take themselves back over to Scotland and leave Ireland to the "Irish".


I have to say that this is not a practical solution to the problem. As a history student I'm fully aware of the events which led to the current situation in Northern Ireland. The endemic discrimination shown against one section of the community isn't something to be proud of. Having said that, no amount of "whataboutery" is going to solve the ongoing issues. For my part, I would like to think that we, as an island, could live together in some form of peaceful coexistence.


The idea of living in a republic is not something that should be anathema to Unionists in Northern Ireland. Many of the founding fathers of the United States that fought for their liberty were of Scotch-Irish descent. Maybe at some stage in the future here in Ireland a second republic could be declared where everyone living on the island could feel that that they are a welcome, inclusive, part of this new Ireland. In the 1790s the United Irishmen were, by and large, of Ulster Scots extraction. They wanted a country fit for Catholic, Protestant, and Dissenter. It would be nice to think at some stage in the future their hopes and aspirations might come true.

orangesoda

chughes wrote: »

Orange, my interpretation of what Busted is saying here is that those people living in Northern Ireland who come from, and strongly identify with, their Scottish ancestry might care to take themselves back over to Scotland and leave Ireland to the "Irish".


I have to say that this is not a practical solution to the problem. As a history student I'm fully aware of the events which led to the current situation in Northern Ireland. The endemic discrimination shown against one section of the community isn't something to be proud of. Having said that, no amount of "whataboutery" is going to solve the ongoing issues. For my part, I would like to think that we, as an island, could live together in some form of peaceful coexistence.


The idea of living in a republic is not something that should be anathema to Unionists in Northern Ireland. Many of the founding fathers of the United States that fought for their liberty were of Scotch-Irish descent. Maybe at some stage in the future here in Ireland a second republic could be declared where everyone living on the island could feel that that they are a welcome, inclusive, part of this new Ireland. In the 1790s the United Irishmen were, by and large, of Ulster Scots extraction. They wanted a country fit for Catholic, Protestant, and Dissenter. It would be nice to think at some stage in the future their hopes and aspirations might come true.

Maybe I was giving the wrong impression, i'm not of the 'Ulster-Scots' tradition, most of my descent is from Ulster clans, I was just trying to point out that there is a big cultural connection between Scotland to Ireland, especially the north. Republicans need to realise that things aren't as simple as 'we're Irish, they're British' and loyalists need to realise that as well, sure a lot of these proud loyal Ulster British mens ancestors fought in the Scottish wars of independence, e.g. Campbells.