Surface Power - Hone Technology

Mixupat

Hi

Has anyone any knowledge or experience of this product:

http://www.surfacepower.com/

The are using a technology called Hone.

I'd be particularly interested with an opinion of anyone using this system in there own home as a full heating system.

There was a discussion thread in 2009 as per below but 5 years later, looking for updated opinion/facts.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055483414

Thanks...

MOTM

I replied to a recent thread on this :

MOTM wrote: »

Ask for certified data to the relevant standards (EN standards or ETA for example) from an accredited body. Are the claims backed up by a favourable listing and associated data on the HARP database, Solar Keymark etc? How does it compare to other solar thermal systems when entered in DEAP, PHPP etc?

When I see a statement "It is designed for easy retrofit (or new construction) so can be utilised in a domestic home built in 1788 with 40 year old radiators as easily as a brand new home or factory."

..and it uses "daylight" rather than sunlight to do so, one phrase springs to mind: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".

I see they claim the "HONE" product is listed on the HARP database. The only surfacepower listing therein is the SP501:
http://www.surfacepower.com/certification.html
http://www.seai.ie/Your_Building/BER/BER_Assessors/Technical/HARP_Database/Solar_Thermal/?f=1&man=Surface+Power

If this is their high performing solar collector, then it appears to have far worse performance (Lower efficiency and higher heat loss) then other solar collectors on HARP.

They also make claims that their system is not "solar thermal" and is able to carry out functions (such as space heating) that solar thermal isn't. I'm thinking this is a sales pitch without fact to back it up.

BarryM3

Just had a salesman in with me. Very sparse on technical detail and heavily reliant on a book of graphs and charts.

It's a hybrid system that means you still need to go with either oil/gas heating system.

For a 3000 ft house he quoted me €16,500

Not very convincing but I would be interested in hearing more nonetheless.

freddyuk

What, more from us or more from Hone?

Richard tea

I listened to a chap from the company on the pat kenny show this morning. Just caught the last part of the topic though. It sounded like a good investment. Have any of you any updated opinions since this thread was started on Hone system?

http://www.surfacepower.com/ Has the website updated or improved since you last visited?

jay0109

Richard tea wrote: »

I listened to a chap from the company on the pat kenny show this morning. Just caught the last part of the topic though. It sounded like a good investment. Have any of you any updated opinions since this thread was started on Hone system?

http://www.surfacepower.com/ Has the website updated or improved since you last visited?

Heard that also. Seems to be too good to be true, and Kenny said that to him a few times. They claim to have fitted 500 houses now so have the results to back up their claims and hence a major marketing drive is underway.
6.5k to fit a new house, 18k or so for a retrofit....€100 heating costs per year

Must be someone on here with a good insight into this or even some experience

MOTM

Richard tea wrote: »

I listened to a chap from the company on the pat kenny show this morning. Just caught the last part of the topic though. It sounded like a good investment. Have any of you any updated opinions since this thread was started on Hone system?

http://www.surfacepower.com/ Has the website updated or improved since you last visited?

Pat sounded sceptical. "its a scientific process not a mechanical one". <snip>

patspost

Heard the last bit of the item on the radio. Looking at the hone website I couldnt see much in terms of hard data, or how it works, just cartoon videos that wont play for me. Googling I came across an indo article about a company eurotech group that looked interesting also.


Edit, I see a white paper on the hone website re photoni and an application in UK NHS

Mixupat

I did a provisional BER for my new build recently and got a version from Surface Power where using there system, I would only use about 100 Euro worth of oil per year alongside the central heating system. My house will be A2 rated with MHRV. If I could verify this, I would seriously consider this product. I will keep an eye on the Live data section of there website over the winter as I probably wont start until spring. If anyone who has the product could verify the figures, this would be the key for me. Otherwise, hard to know.

A friend of mine has Let's Talk Solar Central heating system and he is quite happy with it and has confirmed he uses about 600 Euro's worth of oil per year alongside. His new build is an A3 rated house with MHRV installed.

MOTM

Mixupat wrote: »

I did a provisional BER for my new build recently and got a version from Surface Power where using there system, I would only use about 100 Euro worth of oil per year alongside the central heating system. My house will be A2 rated with MHRV. If I could verify this, I would seriously consider this product. I will keep an eye on the Live data section of there website over the winter as I probably wont start until spring. If anyone who has the product could verify the figures, this would be the key for me. Otherwise, hard to know.

A friend of mine has Let's Talk Solar Central heating system and he is quite happy with it and has confirmed he uses about 600 Euro's worth of oil per year alongside. His new build is an A3 rated house with MHRV installed.

Get "a version" from a registered BER assessor following the DEAP methodology. It is the assessor, not surface power has to publish the BER.

gctest50

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Mixupat

It was my BER assessor who verified the figures. But really need someone independent who has been using the system to backup the claims of Surface Power.

MOTM

I'd be interested to see how the assessor got to an a2 with this system and whether he adhered to the DEAP methodology properly. There is nothing on the hone website to have this system outperforming regular solar heating in a DEAP assessment.

caesarthechimp

The Hone website now has a video tutorial for BER assessments on this page, which basically wants you to enter the system into Deap as supplying space heating as well as water heating. They have helpfully provided a partly filled out Appendix Q form available for download at the bottom of the page. On this they have already put in the (not very good) certified Harp data for the SP501 panel, and they also seem to already know that your roof is south facing, at 45 degree pitch.
This Appendix Q form can indeed be used in Deap in the case of solar thermal, but the only way this can work to improve the BER significantly is if the panel area is "oversized" by normal standards for the house. But they have not filled in the aperture area, so its hard to know if that was their intention. Also the cylinder volume at 300 litres is not particularly large. 500 L or more would be more appropriate for the oversized panels needed to supply surplus heat over and above the DHW needs.

Anyway, by substituting the (better) heat loss and efficiency figures from a rival manufacturer's panel into this spreadsheet, a better BER will result.

From what I have heard from them, they don't seem to claim that their panel itself is all that great; they claim that they can harvest more of the heat collected by the panel through the magic of their "proprietary nanotechnology". However when pressed on the subject of how or what this nanotechnology does, they always change the subject, because its supposed to be top secret.

On the same webpage they have a video claiming that their Hone boiler/nanotechnology/not-a-heat-pump unit has a COP of 250 (which would mean an SPF of 25,000) and can raise water temperature to 95C. This compares to the air source heat pump example with COP of 4 and max. temp. 60C.

However as they are not inputting this into Deap as a heat pump, they can't use any COP figure at all, and especially not one with such a wild and uncertified claim.

Looking at the Appendix Q spreadsheet they have provided, there is no nanotechnology input there.
Also on the website is a selection of certificates, but all just a bit too small to be able to read, and none of them can be downloaded from the webpage.

IMO the concept of using solar PV to power an air source heat pump is the way to go.

threeball

caesarthechimp wrote: »

The Hone website now has a video tutorial for BER assessments on this page, which basically wants you to enter the system into Deap as supplying space heating as well as water heating. They have helpfully provided a partly filled out Appendix Q form available for download at the bottom of the page. On this they have already put in the (not very good) certified Harp data for the SP501 panel, and they also seem to already know that your roof is south facing, at 45 degree pitch.
This Appendix Q form can indeed be used in Deap in the case of solar thermal, but the only way this can work to improve the BER significantly is if the panel area is "oversized" by normal standards for the house. But they have not filled in the aperture area, so its hard to know if that was their intention. Also the cylinder volume at 300 litres is not particularly large. 500 L or more would be more appropriate for the oversized panels needed to supply surplus heat over and above the DHW needs.

Anyway, by substituting the (better) heat loss and efficiency figures from a rival manufacturer's panel into this spreadsheet, a better BER will result.

From what I have heard from them, they don't seem to claim that their panel itself is all that great; they claim that they can harvest more of the heat collected by the panel through the magic of their "proprietary nanotechnology". However when pressed on the subject of how or what this nanotechnology does, they always change the subject, because its supposed to be top secret.

On the same webpage they have a video claiming that their Hone boiler/nanotechnology/not-a-heat-pump unit has a COP of 250 (which would mean an SPF of 25,000) and can raise water temperature to 95C. This compares to the air source heat pump example with COP of 4 and max. temp. 60C.

However as they are not inputting this into Deap as a heat pump, they can't use any COP figure at all, and especially not one with such a wild and uncertified claim.

Looking at the Appendix Q spreadsheet they have provided, there is no nanotechnology input there.
Also on the website is a selection of certificates, but all just a bit too small to be able to read, and none of them can be downloaded from the webpage.

IMO the concept of using solar PV to power an air source heat pump is the way to go.

That must be the nanotechnology they're talking about. That and the T and C's

Superdaddy

I got a call from a sales rep for this system after I showed an interest on facebook and prior to reading this thread. I don't know if this sheds any further light on the workings of the system but he claimed that the system run on glycol (antifreeze) and it needs replacing every 7 years. I asked about visiting homes with the system installed and it seems this can be done and he can supply any certificates I require. He didn't seem to know what an agrement cert was. He wanted me to send him my deap file.
I going to pursue this and see where it leads for now. Anybody had similar experiences?

Beene

Hi Superdaddy, Please keep us posted on what you learn - I haven't contacted Surface Power but would be very interested in understanding if this is a good option for a new build.

anaggar

Superdaddy, can you share your experience with this technology? Any of the other users tried this?

Any feedback is greatly appreciated!

Thanks.