Is attic conversion area considered new build/extension area for new building control

davgtrek

Hi all
I have a project at moment that's in for Planning.
Its a bungalow that has 20m2 new build in two small extensions on ground floor and its attic is to be converted to bedrooms etc. attic area 60m2.

I reading it that it comes under the full force of SI9 ( which is a pain for client considering the small nature of this project ) BUT is the attic conversion area considered as square meter-age of new build in regards Building Regs ?

I'm obviously trying to establish if SI9 applies in this case ?

any thoughts ......

sydthebeat

davgtrek wrote: »

Hi all
I have a project at moment that's in for Planning.
Its a bungalow that has 20m2 new build in two small extensions on ground floor and its attic is to be converted to bedrooms etc. attic area 60m2.

I reading it that it comes under the full force of SI9 ( which is a pain for client considering the small nature of this project ) BUT is the attic conversion area considered as square meter-age of new build in regards Building Regs ?

I'm obviously trying to establish if SI9 applies in this case ?

any thoughts ......

the ONLY person that can answer that for sure is your local building control officer.

there are many such situations which are unclear in regards to these regulations

DOCARCH

davgtrek wrote: »

Its a bungalow that has 20m2 new build in two small extensions on ground floor and its attic is to be converted to bedrooms etc. attic area 60m2.

If the attic is deemed 'habitable' then I would say yes, SI 9 does apply.

sydthebeat

DOCARCH wrote: »

If the attic is deemed 'habitable' then I would say yes, SI 9 does apply.

that would also be my view

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

the ONLY person that can answer that for sure is your local building control officer.

Good luck with trying to get an answer! I have a couple of queries in with a couple of different BCO's....no answers yet!

sydthebeat wrote: »

there are many such situations which are unclear in regards to these regulations

Very many!

Corkblowin

The question is can the conversion of the attic be considered an extension. It may be increasing the habitable accommodation, but all works take place within the existing envelope of the building. Planning may be required for additional items like windows etc, but there is an argument to be made that no extension of the structure is taking place.

Its a pedantic point, but if it were me I wouldn't ask the BCO if SI 9 applies, but would make my argument and ask them to agree with it - better chance of getting the answer you want!

sydthebeat

Corkblowin wrote: »

The question is can the conversion of the attic be considered an extension. It may be increasing the habitable accommodation, but all works take place within the existing envelope of the building. Planning may be required for additional items like windows etc, but there is an argument to be made that no extension of the structure is taking place.

Its a pedantic point, but if it were me I wouldn't ask the BCO if SI 9 applies, but would make my argument and ask them to agree with it - better chance of getting the answer you want!

i know of local authorities who consider attic conversions to be extensions when it comes to claiming exemptions on future extensions.
ie an attic of 30 sq m is converted, requiring planning.
Client then wants to build 20 sq m extension to rear... local authority says no, 30+20 = 50 therefore planning is required as its over the 40 sq m allowed in the P+D act


BTW BCOs are as confused on these regs as everyone else

Corkblowin

I agree that most if not all authorities consider attic conversions to be extensions, and up to now I've never really made an argument to the contrary - simpler and cleaner to get planning. However the new regs have changed the game. Is a dwelling the area being lived in or the area within the structural envelope? If the attic is used as storage can it be considered to already be part of the house? Its really one that needs a court ruling, but I think theres a better than 50% chance a judge would agree that it can't be an extension if no new area is added to the structure.

Who wants to be the one to take it on!!

4Sticks

Corkblowin wrote: »

The question is can the conversion of the attic be considered an extension. It may be increasing the habitable accommodation, but all works take place within the existing envelope of the building. Planning may be required for additional items like windows etc, but there is an argument to be made that no extension of the structure is taking place.

Its a pedantic point, but if it were me I wouldn't ask the BCO if SI 9 applies, but would make my argument and ask them to agree with it - better chance of getting the answer you want!

Problem is you can "win" an argument like this in 2014 only to "lose" it when trying sell or re mortgage in 2024. It's not usually the LA who are the bad guy in these matter it is your future purchaser. Or re lender. I have seen this kind of thing happen....

davgtrek

Aren't they a separate thing Planning & BControl.....
I felt that the conversion does take place within the envelope. ( Of course do Dormer windows take it out of the envelope ???? ) so its not an extension in that sense....

It's a tricky one and one that I'm finding difficult to clearly explain to my client without doing lots of humming and haawing.....

4Sticks

Is the area of an attic conversion reckonable in assessing the 40sqm exemption limit for domestic extensions?
No.

source

I am very open to correction on this but I believe DLRCC are the only LA to say this so un-ambiguously.

Corkblowin

4Sticks wrote: »

Problem is you can "win" an argument like this in 2014 only to "lose" it when trying sell or re mortgage in 2024. It's not usually the LA who are the bad guy in these matter it is your future purchaser. Or re lender. I have seen this kind of thing happen....

But AIB or whoever are not there to assess if you've complied with the Building Regs or not - if you have something from the LA accepting that your works are exempt, or compliant, or whatever then I find it hard to see how an accountant can over-rule that.

Corkblowin

davgtrek wrote: »

Aren't they a separate thing Planning & BControl...

They are - it was never really a building control issue previously - now it is!

4Sticks

Corkblowin wrote: »

But AIB or whoever are not there to assess if you've complied with the Building Regs or not - if you have something from the LA accepting that your works are exempt, or compliant, or whatever then I find it hard to see how an accountant can over-rule that.

I have seen sales collapse. I can say no more than that here.

4Sticks

Corkblowin wrote: »

if you have something from the LA accepting that your works are exempt,

... except that Anything short of of a determined Section 5 application is of little value - imo.

Corkblowin

4Sticks wrote: »

... except that Anything short of of a determined Section 5 application is of little value - imo.

Section 5 relates to planning, not building regulations.

4Sticks

It would be persuasive to a BCO in assisting his decision. I think so anyway.

Gumbo

If i could throw my oar in here......

60m2 Attic conversion plus 20m2 ground floor extensions = SI9

From talking to a BCO who in turn talked to his Senior, it was noted that this development would fall under SI9 in Dublin City.

davgtrek

thanks Kceire. It seems the right thing to do regardless.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

If i could throw my oar in here......

60m2 Attic conversion plus 20m2 ground floor extensions = SI9

From talking to a BCO who in turn talked to his Senior, it was noted that this development would fall under SI9 in Dublin City.

im not sure of the logic here, can you clarify?

are you saying that attic conversions, regardless of size, are exempt from SI9?

Gumbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

im not sure of the logic here, can you clarify?

are you saying that attic conversions, regardless of size, are exempt from SI9?

Official Attic conversions add to the area of the floor, plus they add an extra storey to the building so come in under SI9 if over 40 m2.

If under 40m2 then short form of CN would apply.

DOCARCH

sydthebeat wrote: »

are you saying that attic conversions, regardless of size, are exempt from SI9?

My 2c worth would be if it is deemed habitable, floor area comes out of your 40 m.sq., if it is not deemed habitable, then your 40 m.sq. exemption (for say an extension) is intact.

DOCARCH

kceire wrote: »

Official Attic conversions add to the area of the floor, plus they add an extra storey to the building so come in under SI9 if over 40 m2.

If under 40m2 then short form of CN would apply.

I think you may be asked for more clarification! :P

I assume you meant to say...if under 40 m.sq....and if habitable....and if no other extensions were/had been carried out, then exempt from planning and also exempt from CN submission....but, obvioulsy relevant B Regs apply.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

Official Attic conversions add to the area of the floor, plus they add an extra storey to the building so come in under SI9 if over 40 m2.

If under 40m2 then short form of CN would apply.

Thank you, that would have been my view.

4Sticks

sydthebeat wrote: »

im not sure of the logic here, can you clarify?

are you saying that attic conversions, regardless of size, are exempt from SI9?

I am reading it that the m2 attic converion is always counted for Building Control. The planning status is a separate consideration.

Or put it this way even if in the case of a house being altered extended or converted for the very first time then a 41m2 attic covertion in it's own right would be caught by SI 9

Gumbo

4Sticks wrote: »

Or put it this way even if in the case of a house being altered extended or converted for the very first time then a 41m2 attic covertion in it's own right would be caught by SI 9

Correct, as far as I can see it anyhow.

Corkblowin

4Sticks wrote: »

I am reading it that the m2 attic converion is always counted for Building Control. The planning status is a separate consideration.

Or put it this way even if in the case of a house being altered extended or converted for the very first time then a 41m2 attic covertion in it's own right would be caught by SI 9

Extended - yes - but I wouldn't agree about a dwelling merely being altered, and I do think theres a grey area in conversion of part of the being converted (but I haven't yet had to make a call on it where it matters!)

(2) The requirements of paragraph (1)(b) shall apply to the following works and buildings—
(a) the design and construction of a new dwelling,
(b) an extension to a dwelling involving a total floor area greater than
40 square metres,
(c) works to which Part III applies.

sydthebeat

Corkblowin wrote: »

Extended - yes - but I wouldn't agree about a dwelling merely being altered, and I do think theres a grey area in conversion of part of the being converted (but I haven't yet had to make a call on it where it matters!)

(2) The requirements of paragraph (1)(b) shall apply to the following works and buildings—
(a) the design and construction of a new dwelling,
(b) an extension to a dwelling involving a total floor area greater than
40 square metres,
(c) works to which Part III applies.

grey, yes because theres nothing definitive.... but...

an attic conversion to habitable is more than just an 'alteration' ... its an increase of floor area... so can be defined as an extension of floor area.

Gumbo

Corkblowin wrote: »

Extended - yes - but I wouldn't agree about a dwelling merely being altered, and I do think theres a grey area in conversion of part of the being converted (but I haven't yet had to make a call on it where it matters!)

(2) The requirements of paragraph (1)(b) shall apply to the following works and buildings—
(a) the design and construction of a new dwelling,
(b) an extension to a dwelling involving a total floor area greater than
40 square metres,
(c) works to which Part III applies.

sydthebeat wrote: »

grey, yes because theres nothing definitive.... but...

an attic conversion to habitable is more than just an 'alteration' ... its an increase of floor area... so can be defined as an extension of floor area.

It is not only an increase in floor area but also an increase in the amount of stories that house now takes up.

sydthebeat

kceire wrote: »

It is not only an increase in floor area but also an increase in the amount of stories that house now takes up.

But purely from the point of view of SI9 the extra storey makes no difference.

The floor area is the straw here.

40 is short form cn, 41 is SI9

Right?

Gumbo

sydthebeat wrote: »

But purely from the point of view of SI9 the extra storey makes no difference.

The floor area straw here.

40 is short form cn, 41 is SI9

Right?

Yeah I think you may be right here. If it's under the 40m2 then short form but particular attention to Part B required.

davgtrek

Great points all. A single source or FAQ that applies to the country and not just county by county versions is really needed.
Some chance of that happening i'd say. has any AT's out there in boards land a job starting on site soon or going to tender that comes under SI9 and how did ye get around it ??