New hot water tank issues

Teeks

Hi all,

I got a new hot water tank installed in my hotpress last year as my previous one packed up. The old tank was approx 20 years old and had no factory insulation or any insulation. We have no immersion, it's gas heating only. The problem is the new tank (with factory fitted insulation) doesn't heat the water as well as the old tank. And when I asked the plumber about this he says theres nothing wrong with the new tank and basically I must be imagining things.

So in comparison, if I was heating the water for an hour using the old tank we would have a full tank of piping hot water. With the new tank, an hours heating would only give us a half tank of hot(ish) water.

So anyway, he suggested fitting a stop valve on the pipe leaving the tank, because he said we must be losing this water somewhere ie. a leak. So for the past few months this valve is opened and closed manually as we need hot water. But it has made no difference at all.

Any ideas what this problem could be?? Its driving me nuts and I am fed up of having to heat the water for twice as long as I used to!!

Groundsource

Teeks wrote: »

Hi all,

I got a new hot water tank installed in my hotpress last year as my previous one packed up. The old tank was approx 20 years old and had no factory insulation or any insulation. We have no immersion, it's gas heating only. The problem is the new tank (with factory fitted insulation) doesn't heat the water as well as the old tank. And when I asked the plumber about this he says theres nothing wrong with the new tank and basically I must be imagining things.

So in comparison, if I was heating the water for an hour using the old tank we would have a full tank of piping hot water. With the new tank, an hours heating would only give us a half tank of hot(ish) water.

So anyway, he suggested fitting a stop valve on the pipe leaving the tank, because he said we must be losing this water somewhere ie. a leak. So for the past few months this valve is opened and closed manually as we need hot water. But it has made no difference at all.

Any ideas what this problem could be?? Its driving me nuts and I am fed up of having to heat the water for twice as long as I used to!!

How are you heating the water, Oil, Gas?

Groundsource

Groundsource wrote: »

How are you heating the water, Oil, Gas?

Sorry, seen its gas u are using. Had the same problem myself and found from talking to a plumber that the water was going through the heating coil in the tank to quick . Solved the problem by closing the outlet valve on the heating coil to about half. Done the trick, now better than old tank by a mile.

Teeks

Thanks Groundsource. Can I try doing that myself or do I need a plumber??

Groundsource

Teeks wrote: »

Thanks Groundsource. Can I try doing that myself or do I need a plumber??

You can do yourself. First locate the inlet and outlet of the heating coil on the side of the tank. There should be a valve on outlet. Try closing this a few truns and try. Its a trial and error so u may need to do a number of times to get desired result.

Teeks

Brilliant, I'll try it this evening and come back with an update tomorrow.

Thanks a mill.

Dtp1979

Teeks wrote: »

Brilliant, I'll try it this evening and come back with an update tomorrow.

Thanks a mill.

I have never heard of such a thing. It's always the opposite nearly. The more the balance valve is open the greater the flow and quicker the cylinder will heat. Close the valve fully and open 1 turn. This should be enough. You may also have air in your coil. A pic of your hot press would help a lot

Billy Bunting

I'm with DTP1979.

Groundsource wrote: »

You can do yourself. First locate the inlet and outlet of the heating coil on the side of the tank. There should be a valve on outlet. Try closing this a few truns and try. Its a trial and error so u may need to do a number of times to get desired result.

Your confused, closing the valve reduces flow, follow DTP1979's advice op.

Teeks

I have no idea where the balance valve is. I have three hot water pipes coming in/out of the tank. One at the top, middle and bottom. So one of these is heating the coil and the other 2 are the hot water outlets (plus the 4th pipe which is the cold). Is that right?? But there doesn't seem to be any openable/closable valves on these. Or I'm just not seeing them. Sorry, I'll try post up a pic soon.

scudo2

Billy Bunting wrote: »

I'm with DTP1979.




Your confused, closing the valve reduces flow, follow DTP1979's advice op.

I also agree with Dpt & Billy
ps. Us 3 are experenced plumbers.

Groundsource

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I have never heard of such a thing. It's always the opposite nearly. The more the balance valve is open the greater the flow and quicker the cylinder will heat. Close the valve fully and open 1 turn. This should be enough. You may also have air in your coil. A pic of your hot press would help a lot

I'm afarid you need to think of think about this. The faster the flow the LESS it will heat. Basic stuff guys.

Groundsource

scudo2 wrote: »

I also agree with Dpt & Billy
ps. Us 3 are experenced plumbers.

Its amazing how many plumbers sprung up durin the boom. Trained by FAS no doubt. We all know the scandal that was. Not worth the paper its written on :D:D

Dtp1979

Groundsource wrote: »

I'm afarid you need to think of think about this. The faster the flow the LESS it will heat. Basic stuff guys.

Nonsense. The faster the flow the quicker the coil will heat up

jimf

Groundsource wrote: »

Its amazing how many plumbers sprung up durin the boom. Trained by FAS no doubt. We all know the scandal that was. Not worth the paper its written on :D:D

ouch didn't get on the course then

Wearb

Groundsource wrote: »

I'm afarid you need to think of think about this. The faster the flow the LESS it will heat. Basic stuff guys.

Wrong
Think of this way. Supposing the water in the coil is at 70c and cylinder water is at 30c, the transfer rate from coil to cylinder will be greater than if the coil was at 60c. If the water from the heat source is being supplied faster there is less opportunity for the cylinder to cool the coil and therefore there is faster heat transfer to the cylinder.

Dtp1979

What's the problem with FAS plumbers? I assume all us qualified plumbers on here went through FAS? Well except for the self taught cowboys of course

KoolKid

Post by groundsource deleted. Infraction for uncivil.
If you cant post civilly then don't post at all.

Wearb

Groundsource wrote: »

Will it depends. Say for example one of these FAS plumbers in they're wisdom put the coil in a ring of rads instead of a seperate loop then maybe. What I would do is get the bastard that fitted the cylinder and make the cxxt fix it or else.

It would have been nice if you had mentioned that that was what you suspected in the first place. Although I have never seen one done like that. One for the wtf stickey if can get a photo.

Groundsource

Dtp1979 wrote: »

What's the problem with FAS plumbers? I assume all us qualified plumbers on here went through FAS? Well except for the self taught cowboys of course

Yes, seen it all to often, know what u mean. Thank goodness the rotten FAS was exposed for the way it curned out so called tradesmen. They runied this country. Now most of these said tradesmen are someone else's problem in a different country.

shane 007

For the OP, I installed a cylinder a couple of years ago. Luke warm water only in the new cylinder. I had changed from my regular supplier. Flow was red hot, as was the return but still luke warm water. 90 minutes running, still the same.
Spoke to supplier who also makes the cylinder & they blamed me for a twisted coil. So I took out the cylinder & it was perfect. They supplied me with another cylinder, fitted it but still the same.
Then I copped the coil. Just 3 turns of 3/4" copper tubing. I complained & they replaced with one with 6 turns of the coil.
Fitted that & 30 minutes later, piping hot water.

Not saying it's the same issue, but a possibility with the new cylinder.

Groundsource

shane 007 wrote: »

For the OP, I installed a cylinder a couple of years ago. Luke warm water only in the new cylinder. I had changed from my regular supplier. Flow was red hot, as was the return but still luke warm water. 90 minutes running, still the same.
Spoke to supplier who also makes the cylinder & they blamed me for a twisted coil. So I took out the cylinder & it was perfect. They supplied me with another cylinder, fitted it but still the same.
Then I copped the coil. Just 3 turns of 3/4" copper tubing. I complained & they replaced with one with 6 turns of the coil.
Fitted that & 30 minutes later, piping hot water.

Not saying it's the same issue, but a possibility with the new cylinder.

Agreed. given the price of copper, maybe its a pex coil

Billy Bunting

Groundsource wrote: »

Agreed. given the price of copper, maybe its a pex coil

Gosh! and you have heard of Pex :eek:

Groundsource

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Gosh! and you have heard of Pex :eek:

oh yes, learned all about it in FAS. :rolleyes:

Micky Dolenz

Groundsource wrote: »

Yes, seen it all to often, know what u mean. Thank goodness the rotten FAS was exposed for the way it curned out so called tradesmen. They runied this country. Now most of these said tradesmen are someone else's problem in a different country.

I think you are mistaking the top brass of FAS and the people that were trained.

To my knowledge, there is no question to the standard of training but more to do with how funding was spent, especially expenses.

It is well known across Europe that people going through the Irish apprentice system are trained to a high standard.

KoolKid

2nd Infraction and a ban for Groundsource.
Take a weeks holidays. We really don't have the time to be going over your reported posts. You have quite a rap sheet for such a new member.
Come back with a different attitude or we can make it permanent.

gifted

Why are they called Fas plumbers? An apprentice spends approx 20 weeks doing Phase 2 in Fas, then does Phase 3,5, and 7 out on site. Phase 4 and 6 are spent in Institute of Technology. So to use the term " Fas plumber " is a bit misleading.

I never went to Fas as an apprentice, went to the RTC ( now CIT) for block release every year of the 4 years and took night classes for city and guilds in plumbing.

Teeks

So I'm possibly looking at a new cylinder Shane 007?? I've had 2 different plumbers look at this, actually I had 3 and none of them could figure it out. Its very annoying. So do I put up with this or replace the tank?? Hmmm.....

Anyways, thanks a mill guys. You have been very helpful.

shane 007

Teeks wrote: »

So I'm possibly looking at a new cylinder Shane 007?? I've had 2 different plumbers look at this, actually I had 3 and none of them could figure it out. Its very annoying. So do I put up with this or replace the tank?? Hmmm.....

Anyways, thanks a mill guys. You have been very helpful.

If the issue is the cylinder, it should be replaced FOC by the installer.
I installed 3 cylinders in my customers home. It cost me 1 cylinder & 3 installation costs. I got paid for 1, never kind the times I went back trying to figure out the problem.

So I would speak to your plumber, suggest the issue I had. He can drain a small amount of water from the cylinder, remove the immersion & look in to count the number of turns in the coil.
Also find out where he got it & PM me. I can let you know then if it is the same.
Also firstly, get him to turn off all radiator circuits, turn up the boiler temperature, open the balancing valve & see if the flow & return into the cylinder are hot. If the return is as hot as the flow, it is not transferring into cylinder & the coil is the issue. You could even try this yourself.

shane 007

That's a great help....

Dtp1979

Or you could give free advice here like we all do

spireland32

Shane you should send your bill to the cylinder manufacturer, you should not have been out of pocket for their faulty cylinder. Crazy I wouldn't have put in 3 cylinder without getting paid. Have done it many times in the past with faulty goods... Send the supplier our bill

shane 007

spireland32 wrote: »

Shane you should send your bill to the cylinder manufacturer, you should not have been out of pocket for their faulty cylinder. Crazy I wouldn't have put in 3 cylinder without getting paid. Have done it many times in the past with faulty goods... Send the supplier our bill

They rarely pay. They just say only the material has a warranty. The amount of MV's, faulty components I have changed over the years, all FOC. If I had been paid for them all, I'd be posting here from a white sanded beach in Carribbean....

spireland32

Smaller items... Yes. Only get a replacement. However on larger items like the cylinder, not good enough. I wouldn't let them away with it. We take it off the account when paying the cheque with a note inside. HM prices can vary branch to branch and had to regularly deducted money ourself off the invoices.

It's hard enough to make money with all the overheads and cowboys undercutting prices, without working foc

Teeks

Is there a certain time frame in which you can get a replacement??

Dtp1979

spireland32 wrote: »

Shane you should send your bill to the cylinder manufacturer, you should not have been out of pocket for their faulty cylinder. Crazy I wouldn't have put in 3 cylinder without getting paid. Have done it many times in the past with faulty goods... Send the supplier our bill

I sent a bill for changing a new cylinder that had a pinhole. Took about 2 months but they finally paid me a measly 100 euro .lets just say I asked for more