ATC Question.

crosstownk

I was listening to the LiveATC feed from EIDW this morning around 0830.

EIN49C (DUB-FAO) departed RWY16 (OLONO 1M). While climbing out ATC asked/pilot reported his passing altitude. Nothing new here as I've heard this requested before.

However, the pilot questioned why he had to report altitude rather than FL which is what he would use 'in the rest of Europe'. He asked why it was different in Ireland. The controller simply said "I can't say that" but that altitude is used below transition level (or something to that effect). The pilot then asked for it be mentioned to 'the powers that be' as at that point the altimiter is set to standard (presumably 1013 rather than QNH) and that it would be more convenient to report FL.

So my question is that of the pilot's: Why is it different here than the rest of Europe and what's the thought process behind it?

If you use the search function on www.liveatc.net for EIDW Del/Gnd/Twr/App/Centre and select 0830-0900 you'll hear the conversation from 4:40 and then again at 8:30.

Like the pilot, I'm just curious.

eatmyshorts

SIDs out of Dublin are initially to FL90. Some companies operating procedures have 1013hPa set once cleared to a FL, or QNH once cleared to an altitude. Other companies specify setting 1013 when passing the Transition Altitude or QNH when passing the Transition Level.
With the former procedure, 1013 would have already been set as the clearance was to FL90, so the altimeter is reading FL's, not altitude.

Can any current EI poster confirm EI do it the former way?

folbotcar

Not sure why that pilot suddenly has a bee in his bonnet about the TA. It's not as if it's something new. Below the TA it's called altitude above the TA it's Flight levels. If he's been flying in and out of Ireland he should be aware of this. I don't know if we're different to Europe in that. I know in the UK transition altitude can be as low as 3,000 feet or was as I seem to remember they were harmonising it to 6,000 feet this year. Maybe that's where the confusion arises?

Also if he'd been paying attention he might have known that the 'powers that be' have a proposal in place to harmonise the transition altitude to 18,000 feet throughout Europe. I'm not sure what happened to that proposal but he might have been better looking it up when he got home instead of cluttering up the frequency with irrelevant questions and comments.

If that comes to pass then it will be altitude all the way up to 18,000. Which is the same as the USA.

Madpaddy79

Been a while, but if memory serves me correctly, you change to standard QNH when climbing at transition altitude, and when descending you change to local QNH when at transition level. The inbetween is transition layer to ensure all terrain / obsticals are cleared ( something like 1000 ft in the difference ).

Reference to flight level, FL22 is 2200 feet, So altitude is the same as FL!!

So can't explain a pilots question.

urajoke

The pilot was incorrect, height below the transition altitude should be expressed in an ALTITUDE with reference to QNH, the pilot should only change to a FL when passing through the TA. Above the TA height should be expressed by Flight Level which is referenced to standard pressure 1013.2hPa.

Some airlines/pilots think that because the SID level is a FL they can change straight away to a FL that's incorrect see above, also some pilots/airlines think that when I clear them to an altitude below the TL/TA they can immediately set QNH also incorrect.

Irish AIP for the pilot of EIN49C states

ENR 1.7.2.1.2
ENR 1.7.2.1.3
Vertical displacement of aircraft when AT or BELOW the Transition Altitude is expressed in terms of ALTITUDE whereas such displacement AT or ABOVE the Transition Level is expressed in terms of FLIGHT LEVELS. While passing through the Transition Layer, vertical displacement is expressed in terms of ALTITUDE (QNH) when DESCENDING and in terms of FLIGHT LEVELS (1013.2hPa) when ASCENDING.

http://www.iaa.ie/safe_reg/iaip/Published%20Files/AIP%20Files/ENR/EI_ENR_1_7_EN.pdf

This won't be changed as we don't file differences with ICAO, this is what we do in IRELAND. A common TA will be introduced in 2018 it will be 18000ft.

Cessna_Pilot

Heard a similar Shamrock jockey airborne out of Dublin asking lower north control the very same question a few day ago. Freq was busy at the time and he hogged the freq asking and then questioning the correct answer he received. Very unprofessional and it's something any pilot operating out of Dublin, or any airfield should know the answer to without a second thought.

Pehaps these guys need to go back to ground school in Miramar for a refresh of the old basic knowledge!

Bsal

Im guessing these Aer Lingus pilots where maybe some of the foreign imports?

folbotcar

Well the one on ATC live was definitely Irish with a typical Aer Lingus, 'point of Heino' accent.

Cessna Pilot's comment about another (or the same) Lingus jockey asking the same question is interesting. You have to wonder if this is part of a campaign to get things changed so the poor dears don't have exercise their fingers in those electric jets and have to change to 1013 at 6000 feet?

But the question really is: What does happen in Europe that makes him think we're out of step?

Perhaps someone should ask over on PPRuNe. Maybe he should be directed there instead of blocking frequencies with his personal crusade.

MoeJay

Ok, I'll bite.

Notwithstanding the sweeping generalisations or accusations about the crew(s) being mentioned, the EI SOP is to set QNE when noise abatement complete and climbing to a flight level, else remain on QNH. Similarly on descent, set QNH when cleared to an altitude.

Now, depending on frequency congestion, cockpit workload etc. pilots may be on QNE by the time the initial call to ATC is made (speaking only about EIDW here.) In any case, the standby altimeter is set to QNH and is easily referenced if necessary.

Someone else may be able to answer if the Mode C information for departing aircraft is referenced to QNE or QNH when being used for identification on radar - thus raising the question about what is set in the flight deck.

EIDW ATC would be well aware of what the EI SOPs are.

Also, the instructions in relation to contacting ATC on departure ex EIDW are remarkably vague on the plates; it's "after take off, contact Dublin on assigned frequency." Many other airports across Europe are a bit more prescriptive about when you contact them and what you need to tell them....(I stand to be corrected about details contained within the AIP in relation to information to be passed to ATC on departure!)

I've never experienced any difficulty in operating with the SOP as described; even when having been issued with short notice STOP CLIMB or STOP DESCENT clearances which require only a quick subscale change.

I'll go back to my "typical...point of Heino"...

eatmyshorts

MoeJay wrote: »

Ok, I'll bite.

Notwithstanding the sweeping generalisations or accusations about the crew(s) being mentioned, the EI SOP is to set QNE when noise abatement complete and climbing to a flight level, else remain on QNH. Similarly on descent, set QNH when cleared to an altitude.

Now, depending on frequency congestion, cockpit workload etc. pilots may be on QNE by the time the initial call to ATC is made (speaking only about EIDW here.) In any case, the standby altimeter is set to QNH and is easily referenced if necessary.

Someone else may be able to answer if the Mode C information for departing aircraft is referenced to QNE or QNH when being used for identification on radar - thus raising the question about what is set in the flight deck.

EIDW ATC would be well aware of what the EI SOPs are.

Also, the instructions in relation to contacting ATC on departure ex EIDW are remarkably vague on the plates; it's "after take off, contact Dublin on assigned frequency." Many other airports across Europe are a bit more prescriptive about when you contact them and what you need to tell them....(I stand to be corrected about details contained within the AIP in relation to information to be passed to ATC on departure!)

I've never experienced any difficulty in operating with the SOP as described; even when having been issued with short notice STOP CLIMB or STOP DESCENT clearances which require only a quick subscale change.

I'll go back to my "typical...point of Heino"...

Thanks MJ... I was waiting for one of you to reply and clarify the EI SOPs..
Seems some of the previous posters have a quite obvious and large chip on their shoulders about EI pilots.

folbotcar

MoeJay wrote: »

Someone else may be able to answer if the Mode C information for departing aircraft is referenced to QNE or QNH when being used for identification on radar - thus raising the question about what is set in the flight deck."

Actually that's something I've wondered myself.

On a pedantic point QNE is not a reference to 1013.2. But to the indicated altitude at the runway threshold with 1013.2 set in the window. Sorry but I caught out by an Instructor once on that very question. Damm trick question!

I'll go back to my "typical...point of Heino"...

If the cap fits! I have the same accent, I'm told. Must be a pilot thing or a Dub thing.

folbotcar

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Thanks MJ... I was waiting for one of you to reply and clarify the EI SOPs..
Seems some of the previous posters have a quite obvious and large chip on their shoulders about EI pilots.

If that's a reference to my comment then forget it. I have several friends and relations in Aer Lingus. No chips here.

Crosschecked

MoeJay wrote: »

EIDW ATC would be well aware of what the EI SOPs are."...

As a pilot, are you well aware of all procedures contained within the EIDW MATS?

EIDW have always asked for passing altitude on departure never flight level. The RADAR displays the aircrafts altitude until the aircraft has passed through the transition layer. For positive identification , the mode c must be checked in terms of altitude.

urajoke

MoeJay wrote: »

EIDW ATC would be well aware of what the EI SOPs are.

No we are not. We are aware of certain significant issues but not every EI SOP.

ENR 1.7.2.1.2
Vertical displacement of aircraft when AT or BELOW the Transition Altitude is expressed in terms of ALTITUDE whereas such displacement AT or ABOVE the Transition Level is expressed in terms of FLIGHT LEVELS. While passing through the Transition Layer, vertical displacement is expressed in terms of ALTITUDE (QNH) when DESCENDING and in terms of FLIGHT LEVELS (1013.2hPa) when ASCENDING.

That's what we operate to and expect.

90%+ of Aer Lingus pilots will give us the first check as an altitude once they are below TA if not we simply ask for an Altitude check or wait till you are above the TA and get a level check.

Yes there is one pilot who seems to be mission and has said it a few times but like I said earlier that's the laid down requirement, the one we work to and we don't file differences with ICAO. A common TA will happen in 2018 and he will be happy.

Cessna_Pilot

Any reference I made above was also certainly not "chip on the shoulder".

My issue is with any pilot, regardless of airline or employer (inc my own), who do not understand the procedures/basics of their local airfield and then try to show up the ATC operator by querying a very basic procedure that any pilot shouldn't even bat an eyelid to.

I've operated in and out of Dublin for many years now, and from day one knew you report the passing altitude if below transition altitude whether climbing out or flight level descending in.
In addition to that, crews are told on the receiving departure clearance the departure frequency, and sometimes again reminded on taxi/start up. It's also stated on the departure plate. It's basic stuff.


Anyway sorry to go off topic a bit!

MoeJay

I absolutely take the correct answer on QNE, back to Standard with me.

I mean to say that if there was an issue in relation to the EI SOP it would be raised with EIDW ATC at the operator/ATC service provider level. Another example would be the delayed acceleration on OLONO, PESIT SIDs that got clarified and now we all do the same thing.

I know about making sure to give passing altitude on departure; was never sure about the info displayed to the controller but it makes perfect sense.

I've also never seen any MATS for any aerodrome in Ireland, it's never been made available to me. I don't believe it's publicly available but I'd love to see it!

But when the plates and AIP are scarce on detail you might forgive a guy when he asks why a procedure is a certain way when he has no reference to it...even the good old CAP 413 refers to passing level (which may be an altitude.....)

To be clear there is no dig at anyone here I'm just trying to clarify and get something out of this too. I'm also not advocating using the RT to have a discussion on procedures when a phone call to the ATC unit usually clears these things up in a matter of minutes!

Appreciate all the ATC input.

Crosschecked

MoeJay wrote: »

I've also never seen any MATS for any aerodrome in Ireland, it's never been made available to me. I don't believe it's publicly available but I'd love to see it!
.

Likewise with airlines SOPS. It's only when issues like this arise that one learns what the procedure is for the other person. Although usually at a more formal level than Boards!
The MATS is not publicly available. Each ATC unit would have their own MATS.

urajoke

To be clear there is no dig at anyone here I'm just trying to clarify and get something out of this too. I'm also not advocating using the RT to have a discussion on procedures when a phone call to the ATC unit usually clears these things up in a matter of minutes!

Appreciate all the ATC input.

Likewise I wasn't digging at anyone. It's good to learn.

crosstownk

Excellent, informative answers. Interesting to learn about the forthcoming standardised TA.

Crosschecked

crosstownk wrote: »

Excellent, informative answers. Interesting to learn about the forthcoming standardised TA.

It makes a lot of sense. Here is the link
https://www.eurocontrol.int/sites/default/files/content/documents/nm/airspace/airspace-atmprocedures-cta-atc-perspective.pdf to the Eurocontrol publication on a common transition level. Currently , as part of the UK/Ireland FAB a common transition level is being worked on.