Dutch Agriculture

daithicarr

(not sure if this should be in Agriculture or Economy )

Ireland employs about 117,000 in agriculture, forestry and fishing, and exports about €9.9 billion in 2013

Holland exports €75.4 billion in agri foods in 2012 and employes over 600,000 people on a full and part time basis.

They seem to produce far more of everything than we do, except beef cattle, although they are not too far behind us, (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-FK-13-001/EN/KS-FK-13-001-EN.PDF) ,
this is despite having a land area 59% the size of Ireland.

does anyone know or have a link to any good sources as to why they are about 10 times more productive than us ?

Neddyusa

NET exports are the figures you really need to look at for Holland.
They import massive quantities agricultural comodities through the port in Rotterdam.
The majority of these imports are then re-exported to much of the rest of Europe thereby skewing their agricultural export stats.

daithicarr

ah so they are not above massively messaging their figures as well .

I noticed that farm output according to Euro stat was 4.2 billion in Ireland and 18.9 billion in Netherlands , are these figures some how inflated as well?

sheebadog

Don't forget that both the farmers and the land are highly productive.

daithicarr

sheebadog wrote: »

Don't forget that both the farmers and the land are highly productive.

well that's what i was wondering, what factors make the land and farmers far more productive

towzer2010

daithicarr wrote: »

ah so they are not above massively messaging their figures as well .

I noticed that farm output according to Euro stat was 4.2 billion in Ireland and 18.9 billion in Netherlands , are these figures some how inflated as well?

daithicarr wrote: »

well that's what i was wondering, what factors make the land and farmers far more productive

I wonder if that figure includes the fact that they produce so much of the worlds flowers/flowering bulbs and all the greenhouse veggies as well. They do have the advantage of a massive urban market on their doorstep with cheaper transport needed.

wexie

daithicarr wrote: »

well that's what i was wondering, what factors make the land and farmers far more productive

I know very little about farming but I grew up in rural Holland (if there is such a thing) and I'd have to guess that Holland being incredibly flat will help no? There won't be any of the challenges farmers have here. Also Holland has nearly 4 times the population so the market is much much bigger. This could mean that investments that just would be too expensive here might well be feasible there.

(also I'd say that the land area is probably even less than 59% due to the amount of water in holland, just looked it up, works out to be about 49% and a lot more of that than in Ireland would be taken up with cities/towns etc.)

Could it be that things like flowers etc. are counted in the numbers? Serious money in the flower business.

Just had a look at the Dutch statistics office and the one thing that immediately jumped out is that there's 98 million square meters of greenhouses. About half of which is flowers.

http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?DM=SLNL&PA=80780NED&D1=23-24,32,50-51,59,64-65,79,86-88,155-156,167,170,180,194,295-296,317,320-321,384,388,399-404,406,417-418,427,440,444,451,500,504,512,518-519,526&D2=0&D3=0,5,(l-2),(l-1),l&HDR=G1,G2&STB=T&VW=T

EDIT: apparently the exports were 79 billion last year : http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2014/01/17/waarde-agrarische-export-vorig-jaar-goed-voor-record/

daithicarr

Not only flowers, but they seem to produce a huge quantity of everything else. if you look through that Euro stat report the only thing I can see they don't produce more of is beef and forestry .

I know they are well situated with regards to markets. But most of our fruit and veg seems to come from there.

The massive amount of greenhouses is certainly a major reason why they produce so much.
I just wonder why they are not utilised on a similar scale here, or even on a scale to produce a greater proportion of our own fruit and veg. And if there are other factors apart from an abundance of greenhouses.

micraX

daithicarr wrote: »

(not sure if this should be in Agriculture or Economy )

Ireland employs about 117,000 in agriculture, forestry and fishing, and exports about €9.9 billion in 2013

Holland exports €75.4 billion in agri foods in 2012 and employes over 600,000 people on a full and part time basis.

They seem to produce far more of everything than we do, except beef cattle, although they are not too far behind us, (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-FK-13-001/EN/KS-FK-13-001-EN.PDF) ,
this is despite having a land area 59% the size of Ireland.

does anyone know or have a link to any good sources as to why they are about 10 times more productive than us ?

Well they seem to be able to sell their vegetables in the Dublin market easier than Irish growers.
They have it much easier growing veg on the poulders, 1 set of rotavator blades a year compared to 7 or 8 sets here, even in sandy soil around rush and lusk. Land is also flat and drained properly and good square fields, just look on google maps.

micraX

daithicarr wrote: »

Not only flowers, but they seem to produce a huge quantity of everything else. if you look through that Euro stat report the only thing I can see they don't produce more of is beef and forestry .

I know they are well situated with regards to markets. But most of our fruit and veg seems to come from there.

The massive amount of greenhouses is certainly a major reason why they produce so much.
I just wonder why they are not utilised on a similar scale here, or even on a scale to produce a greater proportion of our own fruit and veg. And if there are other factors apart from an abundance of greenhouses.

Have you seen the amount of glass in rush, lusk, North co Dublin at all? Plenty of it and plenty overgrown and not used because it's not worth growers while, many lads have given up as prices paid are below cost of production of anything.

conor t

don't forget there's a huge capital cost in setting up growing veg/flowers and that's before you consider the power the supermarkets have

micraX

conor t wrote: »

don't forget there's a huge capital cost in setting up growing veg/flowers and that's before you consider the power the supermarkets have

Even the lads that have the machinery etc aren't making anything.

Henwin

I know a guy who invested hugely in glasshouses and polytunnels to grow early potatoes. The bad storm completly destroyed them and now he is broke from it. So maybe its a risky business to get into

freedominacup

Henwin wrote: »

I know a guy who invested hugely in glasshouses and polytunnels to grow early potatoes. The bad storm completly destroyed them and now he is broke from it. So maybe its a risky business to get into

Was he featured on the rag last week?

daithicarr

micraX wrote: »

Have you seen the amount of glass in rush, lusk, North co Dublin at all? Plenty of it and plenty overgrown and not used because it's not worth growers while, many lads have given up as prices paid are below cost of production of anything.

Well we grow some fruit and veg here so obviously its possible to some degree and the dutch must be doing it at a sustainable price. Im curious to know what are the factors which allow its success or failure.

I do see empty and new greenhouses, as I do factory's and other business's , obviously there is a certain level of risk.

blue5000

daithicarr wrote: »

(not sure if this should be in Agriculture or Economy )

Ireland employs about 117,000 in agriculture, forestry and fishing, and exports about €9.9 billion in 2013

Holland exports €75.4 billion in agri foods in 2012 and employes over 600,000 people on a full and part time basis.

They seem to produce far more of everything than we do, except beef cattle, although they are not too far behind us, (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/cache/ITY_OFFPUB/KS-FK-13-001/EN/KS-FK-13-001-EN.PDF) ,
this is despite having a land area 59% the size of Ireland.

does anyone know or have a link to any good sources as to why they are about 10 times more productive than us ?

Yes but have you ever tasted any of what they produce:P

micraX

daithicarr wrote: »

Well we grow some fruit and veg here so obviously its possible to some degree and the dutch must be doing it at a sustainable price. Im curious to know what are the factors which allow its success or failure.

I do see empty and new greenhouses, as I do factory's and other business's , obviously there is a certain level of risk.

Growing stuff is the easy part, we have 3 tunnels here as well as field scale vegetables and there is some sale, but the way the supermarkets are running things these days it's impossible for any foward planning as they put a tender to facilitators every 4 month's. And if youv a program of produce planted and have way true harvest your facilitator which you supply loses the contract, your ****ed.

daithicarr

micraX wrote: »

Growing stuff is the easy part, we have 3 tunnels here as well as field scale vegetables and there is some sale, but the way the supermarkets are running things these days it's impossible for any foward planning as they put a tender to facilitators every 4 month's. And if youv a program of produce planted and have way true harvest your facilitator which you supply loses the contract, your ****ed.

I understand the supermarkets push a lot of producers out of business with their pricing and methods. Does it just mean that big producers are able to stay in the business or do they all go to the wall eventually and if so who steps in to fill the gap if they will just be destroyed ?

micraX

daithicarr wrote: »

I understand the supermarkets push a lot of producers out of business with their pricing and methods. Does it just mean that big producers are able to stay in the business or do they all go to the wall eventually and if so who steps in to fill the gap if they will just be destroyed ?

One of the biggers parsnip growers went last year, (still has machinery on done deal) grew about 200 acres plus 100 acres of cauliflower and curly kale.
This year the other two big parsnip growers grew over 100 acres more each and they are struggling to sell them.
Then other lads grew more cauliflower and kale and there is a glut of caulis at the minute, was 14 euro a box this time last year, now lucky to get half that. There's only about 10-15 big veg growers left.

daithicarr

How are other country's producing it for so little that they can undercut the Irish producers so much ? or is it just the margins are so tight that if they undercut them even a little that the Irish producer will go under?

daithicarr

found an answer to my question
http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/irish-fruit-and-veg-undermined-by-british-imports-26884882.html

sheebadog

In Ireland the retailers control the market. End of.
Producers are second rank. The retailers use imported produce for continuity of supply AND as a tool to reduce price to farmers.
Farmers (united together) need to break this cartel. It's a shame another arm of agriculture suffers. Lip service from the IFA before Xmas ain't worth shyte.

MayoSalmon

blue5000 wrote: »

Yes but have you ever tasted any of what they produce:P

Yeah there horse burgers are atrocious compared to ours

hfallada

The Dutch tend to focus on high value goods such as flowers and garden related products. Go into any garden center and see how much of their trees, flowers and plants come from the Netherlands. Probably all of them. But its something the Dutch have done for centuries and are the best in the world for it.

Dutch farms are totally different to Ireland. They are generally completely flat and square. They are highly mechanized and very large compared to Ireland. The Netherlands is also quite a large producer of Fur which is growing in demand(although I doubt something Ireland wants to focus on producing as its "cruel", but yet people have no issues with being moved to China. Which makes European Fur farming look incredibly humane.)

sheebadog

hfallada wrote: »

The Dutch tend to focus on high value goods such as flowers and garden related products. Go into any garden center and see how much of their trees, flowers and plants come from the Netherlands. Probably all of them. But its something the Dutch have done for centuries and are the best in the world for it.

Dutch farms are totally different to Ireland. They are generally completely flat and square. They are highly mechanized and very large compared to Ireland. The Netherlands is also quite a large producer of Fur which is growing in demand(although I doubt something Ireland wants to focus on producing as its "cruel", but yet people have no issues with being moved to China. Which makes European Fur farming look incredibly humane.)

Would disagree on the size of the Dutch farms. Small enough enterprises. Well run though.

daithicarr

sheebadog wrote: »

Would disagree on the size of the Dutch farms. Small enough enterprises. Well run though.

According to the Euro stat report linked earlier the average size of a dutch farm is 25.9 hectares compared to 35.7 for Ireland
(page 24)

What sort of actions can Irish producers and the government take to protect our agricultural sector from predatory tactics.?

sheebadog

daithicarr wrote: »

According to the Euro stat report linked earlier the average size of a dutch farm is 25.9 hectares compared to 35.7 for Ireland
(page 24)

What sort of actions can Irish producers and the government take to protect our agricultural sector from predatory tactics.?

Break the power of the large multiples. Simple.
In France pork and poultry producers were taking a hammering from cheap imports and losing money fast.
The government sat down the multiples and "suggested" they source their pork and poultry within 35km of the outlet. Job done.
Won't happen in Ireland as the multiples have more influence on power than farmers

Henwin

sheebadog wrote: »

Break the power of the large multiples. Simple.
In France pork and poultry producers were taking a hammering from cheap imports and losing money fast.
The government sat down the multiples and "suggested" they source their pork and poultry within 35km of the outlet. Job done.
Won't happen in Ireland as the multiples have more influence on power than farmers

wow tat sounds like a great idea.

st1979

From what i saw on the dairy side. The dutch had very high output in yield. Price they got paid was similar to here input cost was similar to here. Farm size was no bigger acre wise but due to intensive production they were big output wise. Land prices were higher at 15 to 20k per acre for agri land (no site selling potential)
Farm Buildings were beautiful built faced with red brick for looks (to get planning). Done to a very high standard internally. Auto humidity controlled blinds and robots for milking, feeding, scraping and scratching there backs.
Debt was massive per farm. But was not a concern to them. 40 cow man with debt of 700k+. Most guys owed over 1 million.
Drawings were low. And you would look at them as being mad to have spent so much money on there yard, but thinking about it they are working all day in luxury and all the hardship type work is done by robots. And they have enough money to live on. And as 1 of the dutch farmers explained if he makes a profit next year he will invest it in more tax deductible infastructure.

I reckoned if the dutch came to ireland they could run there system here and make more money than at home. The buildings could be built a lot cheaper here as we need 4 mts slurry storage where they need 6 or more mts. And the roof wouldnt need to be insulated like they have over there.

Birdnuts

daithicarr wrote: »

well that's what i was wondering, what factors make the land and farmers far more productive

Holland is one giant flat delta with warmer and drier summers than ours. Most of Ireland can't really be compared to it in terms of soil, topography or climate.

Birdnuts

sheebadog wrote: »

Break the power of the large multiples. Simple.
In France pork and poultry producers were taking a hammering from cheap imports and losing money fast.
The government sat down the multiples and "suggested" they source their pork and poultry within 35km of the outlet. Job done.
Won't happen in Ireland as the multiples have more influence on power than farmers

Your right there. The interests of corporate fat cats is all that concerns the Irish Government, with everyone else coming a poor second.

MickeyShtyles

One of the major differences is the Dutch are able to make a better product and a cheaper one.

frazzledhome

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

One of the major differences is the Dutch are able to make a better product and a cheaper one.

Having worked there many moons ago, the big difference is the fact that their Dutch and we're Irish. Huge level of organisation, very low drawings and the ability to make the most of what they have. If we were there we'd drown and if they were here they'd feed the world.

Take a drive and look at what land is covered in rushes here and at what land is under utalised. Here it's about do enough to collect the subs, sheds only built when grants available. Don't eat me but this attitude is very much to the fore in Ireland

daithicarr

Birdnuts wrote: »

Holland is one giant flat delta with warmer and drier summers than ours. Most of Ireland can't really be compared to it in terms of soil, topography or climate.

I understand there is a climatic difference along with soil etc, but is it solely down to that. Their farms are about 9 times more productive when you take in the size comparison of the two country's.

Would a marginally better climate be that more productive, would a lot not be down to how its managed ?

daithicarr

MickeyShtyles wrote: »

One of the major differences is the Dutch are able to make a better product and a cheaper one.

well obviously if they manage to take up a much larger share of the market relative to their size. How is the question

micraX

daithicarr wrote: »

I understand there is a climatic difference along with soil etc, but is it solely down to that. Their farms are about 9 times more productive when you take in the size comparison of the two country's.

Would a marginally better climate be that more productive, would a lot not be down to how its managed ?

If farms here were 9 times more productive where would the stuff be sold? It's hard enough to sell what already is produced.

MickeyShtyles

daithicarr wrote: »

well obviously if they manage to take up a much larger share of the market relative to their size. How is the question

That I can't really answer. I just know this from workin in the fruit&veg industry.

st1979

micraX wrote: »

If farms here were 9 times more productive where would the stuff be sold? It's hard enough to sell what already is produced.

You would export the produce. Just the same as the dutch do.

That is the question how do they do it and why cant the rest of us. One thing they are good at is cooperatives. Which we also have in the milk business. But i think they have in most of there products like flowers and veg etc

Looking at holland it is amazing how every square inch is used. I saw a patch the size of a small garden in a triangle shape and they had cut maize on it. I just wouldnt bother. and dont think many of us would. The crops of maize were planted right up to the edge of the water filled ditch. One slip of the hand and the sowing tractor or harvester would end up in the water.

Negatives is there is no wildlife. No bushes or trees etc. And alot of the water had evidence of enrichment from runoff as the water was green. But i dont believe you could farm with so many ditches of water all around you and have crystal clear water. It really is like having a canal around every field boundary.

I came home and reckoned we in ireland have more opertunities than them. As they are maxed out. We are far from full production

sheebadog

Helluva lot of Dutch buying French land.
No more room for expansion in Holland.

Conmaicne Mara

st1979 wrote: »

Negatives is there is no wildlife. No bushes or trees etc. And alot of the water had evidence of enrichment from runoff as the water was green. But i dont believe you could farm with so many ditches of water all around you and have crystal clear water. It really is like having a canal around every field boundary.

This is why the EU have such a hard on for the Environment here. Actually they're way more committed to our environment than our own are.

sheebadog

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

This is why the EU have such a hard on for the Environment here. Actually they're way more committed to our environment than our own are.

Con the EU are commited to the environment across all states. It's getting more difficult to explain the huge agri budget to the taxpayers.

micraX

st1979 wrote: »

You would export the produce. Just the same as the dutch do.

That is the question how do they do it and why cant the rest of us. One thing they are good at is cooperatives. Which we also have in the milk business. But i think they have in most of there products like flowers and veg etc

Looking at holland it is amazing how every square inch is used. I saw a patch the size of a small garden in a triangle shape and they had cut maize on it. I just wouldnt bother. and dont think many of us would. The crops of maize were planted right up to the edge of the water filled ditch. One slip of the hand and the sowing tractor or harvester would end up in the water.

Negatives is there is no wildlife. No bushes or trees etc. And alot of the water had evidence of enrichment from runoff as the water was green. But i dont believe you could farm with so many ditches of water all around you and have crystal clear water. It really is like having a canal around every field boundary.

I came home and reckoned we in ireland have more opertunities than them. As they are maxed out. We are far from full production

Well traditionally the Neatherlands feeds Europe in the summer and Spain does in the winter. Hard to break that, look at all the Spanish York cabbage In the shops at the minute, there's 5 acres fit, covered over the winter and all at home and struggling to shift 100 crates a week.
There was a co-op around here, North Dublin growers but that went a few years ago. And there was a co-op years ago but money went missing etc.

daithicarr

id imagine its hard for a co-op or any grower to survive if there is dumping of cheap goods for below cost on our market as outlined in the article I posted earlier.
I suppose the size of our market is so small it is vulnerable to predatory acts such as that

sheebadog

micraX wrote: »

Well traditionally the Neatherlands feeds Europe in the summer and Spain does in the winter. Hard to break that, look at all the Spanish York cabbag. In the shops at the minute, there's 5 acres fit, covered over the winter and all and struggling to shift 100 crates a week.
There was a co-op around here, North Dublin growers but that went a few years ago. And there was a co-op years ago but money went missing etc.

Bang on. Retail needs continuity of supply. The weather and the infrastructure in Ireland fall short.
Add to that the ignorance of the Irish shopper about quality,local,in season,veg.

micraX

sheebadog wrote: »

Bang on. Retail needs continuity of supply. The weather and the infrastructure in Ireland fall short.
Add to that the ignorance of the Irish shopper about quality,local,in season,veg.

Well I wouldn't say the infrastructure falls short, most things can be produced here with glasshouses, poly tunnels and crop covering. It's just the markets wont take produce, and growers don't help them selves by under-cutting each other, vegetable business is full of backstabbing, and that's no exaggeration.

kevthegaff

what gets my gander is in ireland the amount of wasted land at each sides of roads, the new M7 has some amount of it on both sides

micraX

kevthegaff wrote: »

what gets my gander is in ireland the amount of wasted land at each sides of roads, the new M7 has some amount of it on both sides

A lot of land each side of motor ways is tired to bog, it destroys drainage, but thats a different topic all together.

daithicarr

given we seem to have an abundance of under utilized land and a much lower productivity rate , I wonder is there any way the government could promote the adoption of some of the methods used in Holland without resorting to protectionist methods?

Also I dont quite understand why lots of seemingly unused land isint at least planted with forest of some sort.
Im not a farmer, but I get the impression from what I read that we dont meet our full potential.

I know its not the 1800's anymore, but back then Ireland used to be the breadbasket for Great britain. it produced huge amounts of grain during the Napoleonic period , the climate isint completely unsuited to growing.

micraX

daithicarr wrote: »

given we seem to have an abundance of under utilized land and a much lower productivity rate , I wonder is there any way the government could promote the adoption of some of the methods used in Holland without resorting to protectionist methods?

Also I dont quite understand why lots of seemingly unused land isint at least planted with forest of some sort.
Im not a farmer, but I get the impression from what I read that we dont meet our full potential.

I know its not the 1800's anymore, but back then Ireland used to be the breadbasket for Great britain. it produced huge amounts of grain during the Napoleonic period , the climate isint completely unsuited to growing.

I know what your saying and I share your views completely, I hate seeing wasted ground and ground not being used to full potentional ie. Short corners, overgrown ditchs and hedges. But where I am in Dublin nearly every bit of ground is used, I'm tilling fields at the minute that where sold for mad money during the boom. I'd love to reclaim all that unused land down the country but it's too far away. We are always after new ground, even an acre or 2 provided its not to far away.

Conmaicne Mara

sheebadog wrote: »

Con the EU are commited to the environment across all states. It's getting more difficult to explain the huge agri budget to the taxpayers.

Point was the EU beuros are more pro environment in practical terms than Irish beuros who look at that money and try to figure out how to spend it on anything but the environment.