Who can wire house

aido79

I have a purchased a house that is incomplete. All of the internal work including electrical works need to be done. I live in Australia (but the house is in Ireland) so am not up to date with new regulations. Is it possible for a qualified electrician who is not a contractor to wire the house and then get a contractor to test the installation and certify it or would I need to get a contractor to perform all of the work?

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Is it possible for a qualified electrician who is not a contractor to wire the house and then get a contractor to test the installation and certify it

Since the 1st of October 2013 it has been illegal for a non-Registered Electrical Contractor to carry out most electrical work in domestic premises. This would most certianly apply in this case.

See link

or would I need to get a contractor to perform all of the work?

Yes

aido79

2011 wrote: »

Since the 1st of October 2013 it has been illegal for a non-Registered Electrical Contractor to carry out most electrical work in domestic premises. This would most certianly apply in this case.

See link




Yes

Thank you. This is what I suspected. Does this also apply to alterations to existing installations? How do they police it and what are the implications of an unregistered electrician performing such work?

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Does this also apply to alterations to existing installations?

In general, yes.
There are a few exceptions for "minor works" as detailed in the above link.

How do they police it

No idea.
It would seem that they are relying on people reporting it.
You can be sure that they would investigate if there was an incident such as a fire.

what are the implications of an unregistered electrician performing such work?

Criminal prosecution, fine and/or jail.
I imagine that they want to make an example of a few people.

Unregistered electricians doing this work result in a loss of revenue, put registered electrical contractors out of work and drive down pay rates for electricians. This is apart from the fact that they are uninsured and can't certify their own work.

2011

The Irish Examiner did an interesting piece on this some time ago. It states that anyone convicted of being an unregistered electrical contractor carrying out electrical work can face a possible jail for up to three years as well as fine of up to €15,000

See link:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/electricians-could-face-prosecution-237968.html


Here is a quote from the "Decision on the Scope of Restricted Electrical Works" paper:

The Regulatory Objective was stated as:

To protect the safety interests of customers with respect to electrical installation activities through creating a suitable regulatory system, which provides for electrical works to be carried out, tested and certified in compliance with the appropriate technical rules/standards.

Here are some statistics compiled by the ETCI on fatal electrical accidents:

http://www.etci.ie/accidents/tables.html

This is where Safe Electric encorurage people to report someone who is not a Registered Electrical Contractor that is performing electrical work in domestic premises:

http://www.safeelectric.ie/captcha/report.php

aido79

Thanks for that. Next step now will be to find a registered contractor to do the job at a competitive price...shouldn't be too hard I'd imagine. Can anyone give me a ball park figure of the cost of wiring a 4 bedroom house with attic conversion? I'm not looking for an exact cost just a rough estimate so I know what to expect.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

Unregistered electricians doing this work result in a loss of revenue, put registered electrical contractors out of work and drive down pay rates for electricians.

let's not get carried away

the registered guys do a percentage of work off the books too

Helpmefarm

6000 would get u a nice spec job done

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

let's not get carried away

the registered guys do a percentage of work off the books too

Of course they do and some don't even pay for their TV license, but that does not make anything in my post incorrect.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

Of course they do and some don't even pay for their TV license, but that does not make anything in my post incorrect.

"Unregistered electricians doing this work result in a loss of revenue, put registered electrical contractors out of work and drive down pay rates for electricians."

^^^^^^

conjecture on your part..

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

"Unregistered electricians doing this work result in a loss of revenue, put registered electrical contractors out of work and drive down pay rates for electricians."

^^^^^^

conjecture on your part..

Really


Perhaps you explain which of the following you think are "conjecture" and give reasons why:

• Putting registered electrical contractors out of business
• Driving down pay rates for electricians
• Loss of revenue (by this I mean Tax revenue to the government)

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

Really


Perhaps you explain which of the following you think are "conjecture" and give reasons why:

• Putting registered electrical contractors out of business
• Driving down pay rates for electricians
• Loss of revenue (by this I mean Tax revenue to the government)

you're making an assumption than non-registered electricians don't file tax returns too

and as i said the registered guys do the same thing anyhow ..work the small domestic jobs off the books


driving the non registered guys out of work..:D

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

some don't even pay for their TV license

That`s me doomed so. No tv licence this year yet, connected an MCB a few weeks ago, and today I went at 130kph on the M3. A career criminal.

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you're making an assumption than non-registered electricians don't file tax returns too

True.

I am working on the assumption a non-registered person doing this work is doing it as a "nixer".

These people are either not certifying thier work or pulling some sort of a stroke to get it certified so I would be very suprised if they are going to ignore these issues (registration and certification) and then go and pay tax.

Perhaps there is a very small minority that this applies to. I can not think why a fulltime electrical contractor would pay tax and not register (unless he/she was did not meet the criteria for registration)

as i said the registered guys do the same thing anyhow ..work the small domestic jobs off the books

Without a doubt.
I am sure that some of them break all sorts of rules, regulations and laws, but they are legally permitted to wire houses and that is what the OP's question was.

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

True.

I am working on the assumption a non-registered person doing this work is doing it as a "nixer".

yes


you're arguments mostly hold water


but many contractors have de-registered since the boom

and continued to work as sole traders doing a mix of commercial ,IND and domestic

and filing tax returns

and the registered contractor will stick the 50 euro callout in the back pocket just the same way..

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

but many contractors have de-registered since the boom

I assume that you are going to say that they could not afford it?

I am open to correction on this but as far as I know the most expensive part is paying for the insurance. If this is the case then I assume that many of them carry the additional risk of having no insurance and if they are a sole trader then their home is at risk should they loose a claim (a limited company does not expose the employee's or director's home to risk) :eek:

and continued to work as sole traders doing a mix of commercial ,IND and domestic

I can not imagine any industrial work not requiring a certificate.
All of the industrial installations that I have worked required a completion certificate for all electrical work (as required by ET101) which have been checked during audits from the insurance company.

So the choices are:
1) No cert - Very risky :eek:
2) Pay for a cert - Very quickly it would be cheaper to simply register!

and filing tax returns

If they are filling tax returns then they must be doing so much of it (to the point that they are making a living from it) that they are afraid of getting caught by revenue.

Personally I think that this is a very risky tactic. The Restricted Works legislation is very hard/impossible to police properly, as has been acknowledged on this forum many times. There will always be electricians rewiring houses for friends and/or relations as a "nixer" here and there with absolutely no paper trail. I can't see how these guys will every be caught unless they are exceptionally unlucky. But constantly doing electrical work, having accounts in electrical wholesalers, submitting invoices, tax returns etc. is a very different story. If reported by a disgruntled customer, competitor, registered electrical contractor or just someone that has seen the add campaign an unregistered electrical contractor could be in very serious trouble (as well as their customers). The evidence in the form of a paper trail would be enormous.

These people have almost all of the overheads that a registered electrical contractor does so why not just pay the last little bit? Is it really worth the risk? Surly they an unregistered electrical contractor can not demand the same price as a registered contractor that can issue a completion certificate?

the registered contractor will stick the 50 euro callout in the back pocket just the same way..

Yes, some do.
We keep agreeing on this.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

I am open to correction on this but as far as I know the most expensive part is paying for the insurance.

Speaking from my own experience insurance is not expensive, I pay €650 every year and that is full cover as a heating and plumbing contractor too.

2011

WikiHow wrote: »

Speaking from my own experience insurance is not expensive, I pay €650 every year and that is full cover as a heating and plumbing contractor too.

Thanks.
So I was not too far off. I found this:

All applications must be submitted with a copy of your qualifications and a cheque for €180 for your Application fee. For successful applications an annual subscription fee of €350 will apply for operators with less than 10 electricians.

See RECI link here

Sir Arthur Daley

I pay €260 to ECSSA every year then, i did get electrical only insurance quotes for as little as €400, small money for piece of mind.

2011

WikiHow wrote: »

I pay €260 to ECSSA every year then, i did get electrical only insurance quotes for as little as €400, small money for piece of mind.

I would imagine that that pays for itself quite quickly.

Over an entire year I am sure that you can charge far more than an additional €660 just on the basis of being able to say that you are registered.

Sir Arthur Daley

2011 wrote: »

I would imagine that that pays for itself quite quickly.

It does, if i was not insured and registered the council would not keep me on as a sub contractor, they are one of the best companies to pay and i value their business.
I dont depend on the work from the council but i would feel the hit if i lost their work.

hufpc8w3adnk65

Sorry now too pull this off topic but could say for example I (electrician 17 years including serving my time) a fully fas quailifed spark get insurance whilst still working for my boss and not getting a c2 and going out on my own?

tomdempsey200

2011 wrote: »

If they are filling tax returns then they must be doing so much of it (to the point that they are making a living from it) that they are afraid of getting caught by revenue.

you can be earning 30 euro a week as a self employed person changing light bulbs

and fully tax compliant


I'm not saying this is the norm.. but it's quite possible

you do not necessarily have to make a living from self employed income alone

Sir Arthur Daley

MrMac84 wrote: »

Sorry now too pull this off topic but could say for example I (electrician 17 years including serving my time) a fully fas quailifed spark get insurance whilst still working for my boss and not getting a c2 and going out on my own?

You could of course, you would need to register as a sole trader but your tax bill be high as the income you get from your employer would be taken into account, the C2 tax clearance is long gone also.

2011

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

you can be earning 30 euro a week as a self employed person changing light bulbs

and fully tax compliant

Theoretically you are correct, but we are talking about house rewires.
For the reasons given in post #16 I do not think it plausible that this would apply to any more than the tiniest minority.

The work that you describe, such as changing light bulbs, swapping out like for like socket outlets and replacing light fittings are defined as "minor works" in the Restricted Works legislation.
As such this type of work does not have to be carried out by a registered electrical contractor, instead it may be carried out by a competent person.
The OP is asking about something very different.

aido79

Helpmefarm wrote: »

6000 would get u a nice spec job done

Cheers. What would that include? I won't be living there as I'll just be renting it out so not really bothered about high spec.

hufpc8w3adnk65

aido79 wrote: »

Cheers. What would that include? I won't be living there as I'll just be renting it out so not really bothered about high spec.

Most people only wire a house once in there lives. If there's a chance you or someone close too you will live there down the line my advice is do not cut cornors on electrics. Things like cheap furniture and cabnits are easyily replaced down the line but additional sockets or zoned heating etc may not be as easy

2011

aido79 wrote: »

Cheers. What would that include? I won't be living there as I'll just be renting it out so not really bothered about high spec.

Lets not get carried away.

Without seeing the house €6,000 is nothing other than a wild guess.

There are so many variables what it could (or could not) include is only limited by your imagination.

A lot more information would be required before questions such as that can be answered.

Helpmefarm

Where the house aid?

Bruthal

2011 wrote: »

The work that you describe, such as changing light bulbs, swapping out like for like socket outlets and replacing light fittings are defined as "minor works" in the Restricted Works legislation.
As such this type of work does not have to be carried out by a registered electrical contractor, instead it may be carried out by a competent person.

Hmm, a competent person can swap out sockets, something that can be a nightmare to do correctly at times.

Yet a qualified electrician cant swap an MCB, often a far easier task than swapping a socket.

A nation of easily aligned minds helps the above seem sensible though.

tomdempsey200

Bruthal wrote: »

Hmm, a competent person can swap out sockets, something that can be a nightmare to do correctly at times.

Yet a qualified electrician cant swap an MCB, often a far easier task than swapping a socket.

A nation of easily aligned minds helps the above seem sensible though.

yes it's actually easy enough to leave reverse polarity and loose cpcs etc.. when replacing sockets

if you don't test


now the DIY man won't have calibrated loop-impedance testers etc.(which i have btw)

2011

Bruthal wrote: »

Hmm, a competent person can swap out sockets, something that can be a nightmare to do correctly at times.

In terms of the Restricted Works decision paper, yes.

Yet a qualified electrician cant swap an MCB, often a far easier task than swapping a socket.

Incorrect, electricians can and do this type of work frequently as part of their day to day job.

The OP is asking if it is permitted to get a home wired by an unregistered electrical contractor and certified by someone else so let's stay on topic!

The rights and wrongs of this piece of legislation is for another thread if you so wish.

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

yes it's actually easy enough to leave reverse polarity and loose cpcs etc.. when replacing sockets

It sure is, I guess that is why it should be done by a competent person.

now the DIY man won't have calibrated loop-impedance testers etc.(which i have btw)

To be honest many electricians don't own a loop impedance tester either.
I am an electrician and I don't and I am quite comfortable changing sockets in my own home without it, but that is a discussion for another thread.

hufpc8w3adnk65

2011 wrote: »

To be honest many electricians don't own a loop impedance tester either.
I am an electrician and I don't and I am quite comfortable changing sockets in my own home without it, but that is a discussion for another thread.

You don't own one? Your a contractor tho aren't you? I was led too belive every contractor must have a fault loop, rcd & megger? And also must have them calibrated every 12 months and the resulting certs then forwarded too reci ecssa & insurance company's?

2011

MrMac84 wrote: »

Your a contractor tho aren't you?

No, I am not an electrical contractor.

hufpc8w3adnk65

2011 wrote: »

No, I am not an electrical contractor.

Sorry about that. My bad.

For what it's worth I'm not a contractor either and only carry the meter below with me on a daily basis. The meger etc are kept in the stores and you'd only take them for bigger jobs

tomdempsey200

MrMac84 wrote: »

Sorry about that. My bad.

For what it's worth I'm not a contractor either and only carry the meter below with me on a daily basis. The meger etc are kept in the stores and you'd only take them for bigger jobs

I have one..think i may have the 600 model
nice tester
the clamp can be a nuisance to use at a DB compared to the old style jaw clamps
and I don't think it fits a big cable either