advice / complaint - structural engineer

2012paddy2012

I am looking for advice:

I had an extension completed in March 2010 , approx.

It was under the size that requires planning permission. Builder had agreed to give me an engineers report at conclusion/confirming that the size was under that required for planning permission. He did. The first "report" resembled a first years school child homework report.
I was extremely annoyed and made it clear to him in no uncertain terms.

He then arranged an engineers Ireland "BRSE9202" opinion on compliance cert which looked the part , and I filed it away , until now.

Since the start |(around March 2010) I have had on-going leaks and issues with the roof. I have tried to repair them myself , with sealants /boding materials/fillers etc , to no avail.
I now have in the recent weeks had builders with specific experience in roofs look at it to try establish where the water may be coming in.

The plain truth of the matter is that the pitch is way to low. I have wasted all the time and expense over the last few years to no avail. Water WILL always get in , no matter what I or indeed any other person/roofer does.

It will require 5.000 euro ,to remove the roof that is there and replace it with a proper substance , that will waterproof it properly.

This is the opinion of 5 different qualified tradesmen. Not happy with this after paying a considerable amount initially.
I took all the usual precautions prior to engaging this builder to do the job ,i.e. insisted on seeing other work including his own extension.

I am reading the report from the civil engineer in particular with reference to his professional opinion on the roof. Quote from his "General statement" as regards roof "The extension is roofed by timber monopitch roof".

On the form where it states: Description of works :Engineer wrote in -
"Construction of rear extension at the above address"

At the end of form BRSE9202 , it is signed by the engineer , member of engineers Ireland , with the following stipulation in clear bold writing - "TO BE SIGNED BY A CHARTERED ENGINEER WITH DESIGN EXPERIENCE APPROPIATE TO THE WORKS"

In conclusion , an engineer has signed off as a result of an examination of the extension constructed on my property , that he is satisfied that the extension is valid , under the regulations pertinent to standard relevant to form BR SE 9202.

MY QUESTIONS:
How can a qualified structural engineer complete and sign off on a building in this case an extension , which has a low pitch roof that was going to, always has , and always will , leak ?
There is a mathematical equation available for any tom/dick or Harry to see on the internet , which I (non professional qualifications) have completed and confirms that the pitch is insufficient for this type of roof.
Is there *(similar to solicitors) an independent panel of engineers available for members of the public to engage , where they feel they have been misled by members of the engineers Ireland body?
Is there a formal complaints procedure that I could (and am anxious to follow)
This builder has left the country. I am aware he still has a property here.
From a compensation point of view - this may be an avenue to follow.

TIME DELAY - this may be an issue. Having said that it is only in very recent weeks I have discovered what the cause of the problem is. I was certainly rather shocked , bearing in mind I had an engineers report filed away , I recalled reading it at the time , that everything was in compliance ...the fact that there was such an obvious issue as the incorrect slope/pitch , never really occurred to me.

sorry for long rant , wanted to give a factual account of the situation.

thks

BryanF

did you employ the engineer to provide a spec & drawing to the builder and to carryout periodic inspections during the project? or did the builder employ the engineer at the end of the job? either way it is the builder you should be looking to first.
but, no harm to contact the engineer in writing to see what he has to say: do not accuse him of anything,perhaps request he visits the site with the builder (as your first approach should be always be to find a resolution ie get your roof fixed.)

(mod note: we're not dealing with legal maters here)

2012paddy2012

BryanF wrote: »

did you employ the engineer to provide a spec & drawing to the builder and to carryout periodic inspections during the project? or did the builder employ the engineer at the end of the job? either way it is the builder you should be looking to first.
but, no harm to contact the engineer in writing to see what he has to say: do not accuse him of anything,perhaps request he visits the site with the builder (as your first approach should be always be to find a resolution ie get your roof fixed.)

(mod note: we're not dealing with legal maters here)

Mod- I do not want legal advice-
I am seeking advice as regards an extension and avenues open to remedy the problem from people most likely to know

BryanF

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Mod- I do not want legal advice-

the note was for others, before people start making 'sue them' suggestions:)

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

I am seeking advice as regards an extension and avenues open to remedy the problem from people most likely to know

did you read the rest of my post above?

2012paddy2012

BryanF wrote: »

did you employ the engineer to provide a spec & drawing to the builder and to carryout periodic inspections during the project? or did the builder employ the engineer at the end of the job? either way it is the builder you should be looking to first.
but, no harm to contact the engineer in writing to see what he has to say: do not accuse him of anything,perhaps request he visits the site with the builder (as your first approach should be always be to find a resolution ie get your roof fixed.)

(mod note: we're not dealing with legal maters here)

ok thank you. It was agreed at the start that I would just get it certified that it was good workmanship and under the I think its 40 sq mtr or something so I wouldn't have to apply to co.co ,as it was exempt, if I was to sell in the future.

On discovering the problem , I took out the form BR SE 9202(is that the standard form irish engineers use??) and re read it. It appears to me that the engineer has viewed the extension and certified as per this form.

Builder in Canada , and I am left with a 5.000 euro bill. Yes he is to blame , however if the engineer had flagged this issue re low pitch roof I would have taken certain action at that time to immediately remedy the situation.

As this problem was not spotted I now have this issue.

BryanF

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

1. How can a qualified structural engineer complete and sign off on a building in this case an extension ,
2. which has a low pitch roof that was going to, always has , and always will , leak ?
3. There is a mathematical equation available for any tom/dick or Harry to see on the internet , which I (non professional qualifications) have completed and confirms that the pitch is insufficient for this type of roof.
4. Is there *(similar to solicitors) an independent panel of engineers available for members of the public to engage , where they feel they have been misled by members of the engineers Ireland body?
5. Is there a formal complaints procedure that I could (and am anxious to follow)

1. easy. he was employed by the builder, to 'look' at the extension after the build(im speculating here due to info provided)
2. this is a specification and workman issue not the fault of the engineer. that's why i ask about did you provide the builder with a specification and have independent professional advice during the project
3. depends on what the spec and materials used were.
4. yes contact the chartered institute
5. yes contact the chartered institute
   

2012paddy2012

BryanF wrote: »

[/LIST]

1. easy. he was employed by the builder, to 'look' at the extension after the build(im speculating here due to info provided)
2. this is a specification and workman issue not the fault of the engineer. that's why i ask about did you provide the builder with a specification and have independent professional advice during the project
3. depends on what the spec and materials used were.
4. yes contact the chartered institute
5. yes contact the chartered institute

Ok thks. Basically from reading the form from engineer. He has certified that the steel used to hold up the house when the rear supporting wall was taken down is sufficient to do the job its supposed to do.

As I said in the post , he was to basically get me a cert /good workmanship and size confirmation , which does instead of a cert of exemption that some co.co require if you sell.

He also states (its very open to interpretation - these certs are well checked before signature to ensure no "openings" for litigation etc) that the extension has been completed with good building practice.

This is open to interpretation-

I don't consider a low pitch roof that will not keep out water due to its construction - good building practice... Do you?

Is the guy competent when he makes that statement and the roof leaks?

Thks

P

sydthebeat

the pitch required is dependent on the roof finish.
The pitch will also determine things like overlaps in felt, centres of roofing battens etc.

what is the roof finish, and what is the pitch?

Could the engineers cert simply cover structural issues such as the steelwork, or does it refer to compliance with building regulations?? have you been in contact with this engineer?

also, just as a side note, county councils require nothing in the case of a sale, they have nothing to do with it.

2012paddy2012

sydthebeat wrote: »

the pitch required is dependent on the roof finish.
The pitch will also determine things like overlaps in felt, centres of roofing battens etc.

what is the roof finish, and what is the pitch?

Could the engineers cert simply cover structural issues such as the steelwork, or does it refer to compliance with building regulations?? have you been in contact with this engineer?

also, just as a side note, county councils require nothing in the case of a sale, they have nothing to do with it.

thks...I am really mad now , I couldn't sell my house in Navan as it had a conservatory , and the auctioneer couldn't sell it until the county council planning department received examined my plans for the conservatory then issued a certificate of exemption , with a nice fee as well for the pleasure ..when did that change?
yes it was for the steel insert /structural -
last line on engineer report is:

I can confirm that the extension has been completed with good building practice......A low pitch roof that has is and always will leak is not my idea of good building practice!!! thks
P

sydthebeat

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

thks...I am really mad now , I couldn't sell my house in Navan as it had a conservatory , and the auctioneer couldn't sell it until the county council planning department received examined my plans for the conservatory then issued a certificate of exemption , with a nice fee as well for the pleasure ..when did that change?
yes it was for the steel insert /structural -
last line on engineer report is:

I can confirm that the extension has been completed with good building practice......A low pitch roof that has is and always will leak is not my idea of good building practice!!! thks
P

just let me clarify, the council do not "require" anything for a sale... however you may require certain things from them. What youve described is a section 5 application to determine if a development is exempt or not.

on the cert, the last line appears to be all encompassing.

2012paddy2012

sydthebeat wrote: »

just let me clarify, the council do not "require" anything for a sale... however you may require certain things from them. What youve described is a section 5 application to determine if a development is exempt or not.

on the cert, the last line appears to be all encompassing.

thks.that's it ok. Could you expand on your view ie.. "the last line appears to be all encompassing"..from this specific point of view ...

if you had an extension completed that looked the part and you had a document in your hand , stating , it was built to a good building standard ..from a qualified engineer , would you be happy that it was a job well done?(ps competently)

many thks

paddy

Drift

Hi,

I have seen some examples of similar issues before and can I suggest that informal contact with both the builder and engineer prior to pursuing and official/legal route may save a lot of hassle and expense for both sides.

If you start off with a confrontational approach you'll almost certainly get one in return.

If you ring both of them and tell them you are having problems with your extension and would they mind coming out to have a look at it with a view to seeing how it might be sorted out you might get a better reception.

Obviously you should still record everything that happens and that is said and follow up phone calls with emails or letters so you have a paper trail later just in case.

I understand that the builder might have left the country but it is still worth a try.


Edit:
P.S. Once you start trying to aportion blame or pursue recompense the engineer will be obliged to notify his PI Insurer who will in turn tell him to have no further contact with you. I'm not saying you are not entitled to do this if he was negligent but it might be easier solved informally between the parties involved.

2012paddy2012

Drift wrote: »

Hi,

I have seen some examples of similar issues before and can I suggest that informal contact with both the builder and engineer prior to pursuing and official/legal route may save a lot of hassle and expense for both sides.

If you start off with a confrontational approach you'll almost certainly get one in return.

If you ring both of them and tell them you are having problems with your extension and would they mind coming out to have a look at it with a view to seeing how it might be sorted out you might get a better reception.

Obviously you should still record everything that happens and that is said and follow up phone calls with emails or letters so you have a paper trail later just in case.

I understand that the builder might have left the country but it is still worth a try.


Edit:
P.S. Once you start trying to aportion blame or pursue recompense the engineer will be obliged to notify his PI Insurer who will in turn tell him to have no further contact with you. I'm not saying you are not entitled to do this if he was negligent but it might be easier solved informally between the parties involved.

That's a mill- that's great advice- one quick thing- can you recommend should I get an appropriate pwrson to look at it and say definitely tge pitch is too low- I cannot find a specific building regulation in law- only guidelines- if there is a definite ' rule' its blaxk and white- thks

sydthebeat

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

That's a mill- that's great advice- one quick thing- can you recommend should I get an appropriate pwrson to look at it and say definitely tge pitch is too low- I cannot find a specific building regulation in law- only guidelines- if there is a definite ' rule' its blaxk and white- thks

asked above

what is the roof finish, and what is the pitch?

Drift

There's people who post here that would have a much tighter knowledge of the applicable regulations than me so I'll leave that for them to answer.

Structurally there is nothing wrong with having a roof of any pitch (or indeed flat) provided the elements are designed to carry the appropriate loads. The key point in your case is how it is finished to make it weather tight.

So I would suggest that the issue should be described as possibly using an inappropriate roof finish for the pitch in question rather than the pitch being "wrong." What type of finish does the roof have?

Tile and slate manufacturers, for example, give guidelines regarding the minimum pitch on which their products can be used.

2012paddy2012

Drift wrote: »

There's people who post here that would have a much tighter knowledge of the applicable regulations than me so I'll leave that for them to answer.

Structurally there is nothing wrong with having a roof of any pitch (or indeed flat) provided the elements are designed to carry the appropriate loads. The key point in your case is how it is finished to make it weather tight.

So I would suggest that the issue should be described as possibly using an inappropriate roof finish for the pitch in question rather than the pitch being "wrong." What type of finish does the roof have?

Tile and slate manufacturers, for example, give guidelines regarding the minimum pitch on which their products can be used.

Oh yes that's most helpful- I am aware of the tile its an interlocking tile-
I will check the manufacturers spec shortly- thats a very sensible approach-

One roofer who had a quick look estimated 12 ? As angle if that helps-

I can take measurments later - and post could you work out pitch if I did ?!
Afraid maths wasnt best aubject!!

Drift

The three measurements of the triangle would be enough to work out the pitch (and give a quick check) if you give them to us OP. Failing that the horizontal span of the room and the height of the roof from top to bottom would be enough provided you are certain you have taken the correct measurements.

Mind you be careful - all the comments you are getting here, mine included, are NOT professional advice. Any angles or numbers we give you should be taken with a pinch of salt. People posting here may be professionals but they are not giving you professional advice. This is an internet forum!

You still haven't told us what the roof finish is? (Although I'm guessing some sort of tile now!)

2012paddy2012

Drift wrote: »

The three measurements of the triangle would be enough to work out the pitch (and give a quick check) if you give them to us OP. Failing that the horizontal span of the room and the height of the roof from top to bottom would be enough provided you are certain you have taken the correct measurements.

Mind you be careful - all the comments you are getting here, mine included, are NOT professional advice. Any angles or numbers we give you should be taken with a pinch of salt. People posting here may be professionals but they are not giving you professional advice. This is an internet forum!

You still haven't told us what the roof finish is? (Although I'm guessing some sort of tile now!)

Oh I know however I appreciate all the information I get thks

2012paddy2012

2012paddy2012 wrote: »

Oh I know however I appreciate all the information I get thks

Very very rough sketch!!!! Attached

DOCARCH

Roof pitch about 11 degrees.

Do you happen to know what type of roof tiles you have? Do you have Velux?

2012paddy2012

DOCARCH wrote: »

Roof pitch about 11 degrees.

Do you happen to know what type of roof tiles you have? Do you have Velux?

Thks so much I have pic of tile here its a quinntile western slate measures 17 inch x 13 inch overlap tile-

I wonder how could I find out the max pitch that is recommended by quinntile
( out of business now) thks

I see 17 is recommended for that tile. two velux's in roof...most of leak is around windows also thks

Drift

Have a look here:

http://www.quinn-buildingproducts.com/index.cfm/section/info/display/7/content/47/rooftiles.htm

I cannot tell from your picture if it is a Quinn - Western Slate.

But - if it is, the pdf on that page says Western Slate tiles should be used with a minimum pitch of 17.5 degrees. (edit: Sorry I missed the part of the post where you said you'd found it.)

Did you pay for the materials yourself OP? If so you might have a docket that confirms they are Quinn - Western Slate. Then you should contact Quinn technical support (they're usually quite good) and get them to send you an email confirming the minimum slope for Western Slate.

How you approach the Builder and Engineer will very much depend on who specified what and how. My recommendation is to go softly about it! Again if you get confrontational they will too!

DOCARCH makes a very good point about the velux - detailing in that area is vital. (Although the tiles would still be a problem of course.)

2012paddy2012

Drift wrote: »

Have a look here:

http://www.quinn-buildingproducts.com/index.cfm/section/info/display/7/content/47/rooftiles.htm

I cannot tell from your picture if it is a Quinn - Western Slate.

But - if it is, the pdf on that page says Western Slate tiles should be used with a minimum pitch of 17.5 degrees. (edit: Sorry I missed the part of the post where you said you'd found it.)

Did you pay for the materials yourself OP? If so you might have a docket that confirms they are Quinn - Western Slate. Then you should contact Quinn technical support (they're usually quite good) and get them to send you an email confirming the minimum slope for Western Slate.

How you approach the Builder and Engineer will very much depend on who specified what and how. My recommendation is to go softly about it! Again if you get confrontational they will too!

DOCARCH makes a very good point about the velux - detailing in that area is vital. (Although the tiles would still be a problem of course.)

thks a mill. I have printed off the spec for that tile , I am happy with that.
as far as I can see 16 degrees is min for velux ...it seems the builder put on a 11 degree pitched roof ...1 tiles for a min roof pitch 17.5 /2 velux x2 again on an 11 degree pitch , which as far as I can see should be a 16 degree min pitch....disaster lol thks again for your advice

DOCARCH

Drift wrote: »

DOCARCH makes a very good point about the velux - detailing in that area is vital. (Although the tiles would still be a problem of course.)

Typically Velux should not be installed below 15 degrees, so your main issue/problem might be with them?

As Drift mentions above, typically roof tiles would be fitted no lower than 17.5 degrees, but, there are some roof tiles that can be fitted as low as 10 degrees.

Drift

And although I shouldn't be saying this I'm fairly sure there are tiled roofs behaving adequately at less than 17.5 degrees - still not correct, but not leaking all the same.

There is an upstand velux specification that can be used for flat and low pitched roofs.

Definitely worth investigating the velux windows in more detail OP. Good advice from DOCARCH.

2012paddy2012

Thks. Bottom line is: roof pitch 11 degrees. Builder fits tiles with a manufacturer spec of min 17.5 pitch. He throws in two velux windows with a min roof pitch of 15 degrees. (into a pitched roof of 11 degrees!) into the mix.
An engineer views extension and says amongst other things "I confirm that the extension has been completed with good building practice.

Builder in Canada. Engineer probably has Professional Indemnity Insurance.


Question? As a result of constant leaks and - Facing a bill of 5.000 to do the roof in a competent fashion with good building practice ! WHAT WOULD/COULD YOU DO....

Drift

1. Contact Builder and Engineer and ask them to come out and look at the situation and formulate a plan to fix it.

2. If this doesn't work send a registered letter to both asking them to contact you regarding issues you are experiencing with your new extension. (You may need a copy of this later so don't get too accusatory in it.)

2. If you get no satisfaction with this. Either no answer or you get fobbed off your next step is to take on a competent professional to look at the problem and decide what is wrong.

3. Consult a legal representative.

4. Legal representative will probably recommend issuing legal proceedings against both the Builder and Engineer.

5. Each other party will inform their respective insurance companies who will engage solicitors on their behalf. You will hear no further from them except through these solicitors.

6. 4 to 5 years of paperwork going back and forth between the various parties and their solicitors. Independant experts will be employed to assess the situation. Probably three sets, one on your behalf, one on the Builder's behalf and one on the Engineer's behalf. The Builder and Engineer's legal representatives will probably recommend that they each issue proceedings against the other. (Regardless of whether they are friends or not this has to be done so the insurances can cover themselves as much as possible.)

7. Go to court or settle outside of court. If one or other of the parties you have issued proceedings against is now defunct the remaining party's insurance will have to stump up if they are found to be as little as 1% in the wrong. This is a big point in your favour. Hope that fees are awarded against the other side (in fairness the usually are but it's not guaranteed - there is a small possibility you will have to pay your own representatives.)

8. Get your money presuming you're found to be correct and then engage a qualified professional to design and oversee the correction works, who tenders the project with competent builders, supervises, certifies, etc. (N.B. Ask for latent defects insurance this time!)


NB: My point is - no-one wins in court. Once you go legal you are in for a long wait and it's going to cost you money, time and stress regardless. Having seen similar situations before the easiest resolution has always been the informal one. I do recognise that in your situation this may not be possible.




Note: You mentioned pursuing the Engineer through his professional institute. You can make a complaint and it will be dealt with under the Institution's Code of Ethics but they have no power to compel the engineer to pay to fix your roof. They have the power to:

(a) Decide that the professional misconduct in question is
not sufficiently serious to warrant the imposition of
sanctions
or
(b) Issue a letter informing the Member Concerned of the
contravention(s) and requiring him/her to provide an
undertaking in writing to the Council to desist from
and/or not repeat the conduct which constituted the
professional misconduct
or
(c) Issue a letter informing the Member Concerned of the
contravention(s) and reprimanding him/her and
requiring him/her to provide an undertaking in writing
to the Council to desist from and/or not repeat the
conduct which constituted the professional misconduct
or
(d) Recommend to the Council that the Member
Concerned be suspended from membership of
Engineers Ireland for a specified period and be required
to provide an undertaking in writing to the Council to
desist from and/or not repeat the conduct which
constituted the professional misconduct
or
(e) Recommend to Council that the Member Concerned
be excluded from Membership of Engineers Ireland.

Reference: http://www.engineersireland.ie/about/code-of-ethics-and-bye-laws.aspx

2012paddy2012

Drift wrote: »

1. Contact Builder and Engineer and ask them to come out and look at the situation and formulate a plan to fix it.

2. If this doesn't work send a registered letter to both asking them to contact you regarding issues you are experiencing with your new extension. (You may need a copy of this later so don't get too accusatory in it.)

2. If you get no satisfaction with this. Either no answer or you get fobbed off your next step is to take on a competent professional to look at the problem and decide what is wrong.

3. Consult a legal representative.

4. Legal representative will probably recommend issuing legal proceedings against both the Builder and Engineer.

5. Each other party will inform their respective insurance companies who will engage solicitors on their behalf. You will hear no further from them except through these solicitors.

6. 4 to 5 years of paperwork going back and forth between the various parties and their solicitors. Independant experts will be employed to assess the situation. Probably three sets, one on your behalf, one on the Builder's behalf and one on the Engineer's behalf. The Builder and Engineer's legal representatives will probably recommend that they each issue proceedings against the other. (Regardless of whether they are friends or not this has to be done so the insurances can cover themselves as much as possible.)

7. Go to court or settle outside of court. If one or other of the parties you have issued proceedings against is now defunct the remaining party's insurance will have to stump up if they are found to be as little as 1% in the wrong. This is a big point in your favour. Hope that fees are awarded against the other side (in fairness the usually are but it's not guaranteed - there is a small possibility you will have to pay your own representatives.)

8. Get your money presuming you're found to be correct and then engage a qualified professional to design and oversee the correction works, who tenders the project with competent builders, supervises, certifies, etc. (N.B. Ask for latent defects insurance this time!)


NB: My point is - no-one wins in court. Once you go legal you are in for a long wait and it's going to cost you money, time and stress regardless. Having seen similar situations before the easiest resolution has always been the informal one. I do recognise that in your situation this may not be possible.




Note: You mentioned pursuing the Engineer through his professional institute. You can make a complaint and it will be dealt with under the Institution's Code of Ethics but they have no power to compel the engineer to pay to fix your roof. They have the power to:



Reference: http://www.engineersireland.ie/about/code-of-ethics-and-bye-laws.aspx

Just wanted to say many thanks for taking your time and going to the bother of replying. Fantastic informative reply. I appreciate it-thank you.

I did send an email to engineers Ireland yesterday can only find ..members @eng.....irl Email , Will ring later..thks again Paddy


ps does anyone know where I could download an official brochure showing the minimum pitch for this velux :Ggl M08 Velux Window 78x140cm (308) 3059
Shop says by email between 15 and 90 degress , I presume its correct but want to see it in writing!!