what colour should the calf be?

jimini0

We had a calf born last week, mother is a black angus cross. Father is a limousin CWI, the calf is black. I though the fathers colour would be the dominant colour. Am I wrong in thinking this?
This is probably a stupid question but I'm a novice.
I'm only now taking more interest in things around the farm. Have never researched the sires of the calves born on the farm until now.

GrandSoftDay

jimini0 wrote: »

We had a calf born last week, mother is a black angus cross. Father is a limousin CWI, the calf is black. I though the fathers colour would be the dominant colour. Am I wrong in thinking this?
This is probably a stupid question but I'm a novice.
I'm only now taking more interest in things around the farm. Have never researched the sires of the calves born on the farm until now.

Angus seem to be the dominant normally, very hard to breed the black out of them.

Farmer Pudsey

I suspect black. Black is a dominant colour just like a white head. Herefords born to fresians or Angus are black in colour. LM born to Fresians are generall black as well. So a LM to an AA will generall be black unless the cow was 50% WH or LM

Pie Man

Even with our black LMX cows which we put in calve to our LM bull, it's 50/50 if they come out red or black.

moy83

We have always got a black calf out of our aax cows . Maybe a brownish tinge but never a red one

jimini0

The reason for my confusion is because we had another calf born this morning. Mother is black AA cross with limousine I think, father is limousin MBP but the calf is same colour as father. It just confused me.
I actually though our ai man messed up.

moy83

jimini0 wrote: »

The reason for my confusion is because we had another calf born this morning. Mother is black AA cross with limousine I think, father is limousin MBP but the calf is same colour as father. It just confused me.
I actually though our ai man messed up.

We never got red calves , but I know a few that do from the same type cows

J.O. Farmer

The chances of getting a red calf is 50/50 if we assume the father is pb limo and mother is 50/50 limo/angus. The reason is with the genes for coat colour black is dominant over red. The calf gets one copy from both parents. The father will provide red but the mother has both a red and a black copy and can provide either. If she provides the black copy the calf will be black if she provides red the calf will be red.

Miname

from what ive seen it doesnt nearly matter whats put on an angus they will be predominatly black, charlaois on one usually throws a dirty grey or fawn colour and ive seen a few rare looking shades out of blonde bulls on them.
If the calf is alive and kicking however i usually dont give a monkeys what colour it comes.

jimini0

Thanks for all the replys. I now understand a bit more about it. Everyday is a school day.

Bellview

jimini0 wrote: »

The reason for my confusion is because we had another calf born this morning. Mother is black AA cross with limousine I think, father is limousin MBP but the calf is same colour as father. It just confused me.
I actually though our ai man messed up.

depends if there is a red gene in the sire of the angus cow. There are some red angus bulls when crossed with Black angus can be red or black. you somethings see some folks discuss Lanigan red blaze as an angus bull... but he is red

on subject of colour the dam always has a large input look at colour of HE, LM. SIM & CH when crossed outside their breed... I would not be worroed on colour too much

jimini0

Bellview wrote: »

depends if there is a red gene in the sire of the angus cow. There are some red angus bulls when crossed with Black angus can be red or black. you somethings see some folks discuss Lanigan red blaze as an angus bull... but he is red

on subject of colour the dam always has a large input look at colour of HE, LM. SIM & CH when crossed outside their breed... I would not be worroed on colour too much

Oh no the colour does not matter I just wanted to learn more about the whole thing. As long as mother and calf are healthy that's all that matters.

Farrell

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

The chances of getting a red calf is 50/50 if we assume the father is pb limo and mother is 50/50 limo/angus. The reason is with the genes for coat colour black is dominant over red. The calf gets one copy from both parents. The father will provide red but the mother has both a red and a black copy and can provide either. If she provides the black copy the calf will be black if she provides red the calf will be red.

Had it here, limo heifer off a Br Fr cow was black with 2 white socks, her limo daughter is pure black, no white markings, while her limo daughter is completely red, & her limo son is completely red too.
Generally that way here, takes a few generations whether si, lm, etc to dilute the black colouring

Genghis Cant

A heifer calved this morning, she's by ABI the Lim out of a BAx cow. This heifer is a twin. She's black and her sister is red. Her sister calved a Ch calf, typical Ch/Lim colour. But this lady this morning brought a blabk calf off the AI Lim bull Dubai. A grand calf unassisted. So the calf is 3/4 Lim 1/8 Ba 1/8 unknown (Likely Lim/Fr). No matter, all's well!

J.O. Farmer

Genghis Cant wrote: »

A heifer calved this morning, she's by ABI the Lim out of a BAx cow. This heifer is a twin. She's black and her sister is red. Her sister calved a Ch calf, typical Ch/Lim colour. But this lady this morning brought a blabk calf off the AI Lim bull Dubai. A grand calf unassisted. So the calf is 3/4 Lim 1/8 Ba 1/8 unknown (Likely Lim/Fr). No matter, all's well!

Your twin heifers are a perfect example of how it's 50/50 if the calf is black or red. The black should not come through again in the red heifers line assuming she's not bred to a black bull. As you can see the black followed through into the next generation with the black heifer.

Genghis Cant

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Your twin heifers are a perfect example of how it's 50/50 if the calf is black or red. The black should not come through again in the red heifers line assuming she's not bred to a black bull. As you can see the black followed through into the next generation with the black heifer.

As luck would have it, the red twin is back in calf to Dubai. Let's see if she brings red or black!
If the quality is good enough, I couldn't care less if they came with stripes!

J.O. Farmer

Genghis Cant wrote: »

As luck would have it, the red twin is back in calf to Dubai. Let's see if she brings red or black!
If the quality is good enough, I couldn't care less if they came with stripes!

I figure that the calf should be red off the red heifer.

Genghis Cant

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I figure that the calf should be red off the red heifer.

Is she not potentially genetically the same as her black sister?

J.O. Farmer

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Is she not potentially genetically the same as her black sister?

Genetically she would be similar but they are un identical twins so no more alike than any other full sisters. The red heifer must have gotten the red gene from the mother while the black heifer got the black gene. (That has nothing to do with twins both could have got either gene). If the black gene was present the heifer will be black.
I could stand to be corrected but my understanding is that the red or black coat colour of cattle is an example of simple mendellian genetics so black always comes through over red.

Genghis Cant

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Genetically she would be similar but they are un identical twins so no more alike than any other full sisters. The red heifer must have gotten the red gene from the mother while the black heifer got the black gene. (That has nothing to do with twins both could have got either gene). If the black gene was present the heifer will be black.
I could stand to be corrected but my understanding is that the red or black coat colour of cattle is an example of simple mendellian genetics so black always comes through over red.

I would broadly agree. In the case of purebreds it's relatively straightforward. However with xbred commercial stock, just about anything is possible, so all we can go on is probability.
It's probable the twins are non identical, (ie from 2 seperate eggs) but they could, I think be identical, from the one split egg. I do think it's improbable, but not impossible.

J.O. Farmer

Genghis Cant wrote: »

I would broadly agree. In the case of purebreds it's relatively straightforward. However with commercial stock, just about anything is possible, so all we can go on is probability.
It's probable the twins are non identical, (ie from 2 seperate eggs) but they could, I think be identical, from the one split egg. I do think it's improbable, but not impossible.

I would be inclined to say that they are from separate eggs as they are different colours. I agree that with commercial crossbreds anything can happen and I wouldn't like to comment beyond coat colour.