Bus routes with too many stops

steveblack

Of all the complaints here, too expensive,too slow, dwell times at stops.
Each and everyone of them could be reduced by removing at least 20% if not 30% of the bus stops.
As a driver i can tell you it would impact on at worst 5% of passengers. These 5% are causing serious delays and price increases for the 95%.

1.A bus burns most fuel getting moving from a stop, oil is only going up in price, each year will mean increased fare prices. Remove some stops = a pause on fare rises.

2. Less stops , the bus spends less time accelerating and decelerating, can maintain a higher average speed.

3.Dwell times. Enough said

Some routes are ridiculous, you could be at one stop and be able to lip read people waiting at the next.

If you have any friends from outside ireland ask them what they think about the number of stops, they will all say too many.

Kill two birds with one stone, improve public transport and help with the growing obesity problem in the country by removing some of the stops.

Victor

One needs to look at the actual stops, how often buses stop at them, how many people board/alight and where the nearest stops are.

1. Major stops - every (>90%) passing bus stops there and a large number (10+) of people board or alight.
2. Busy stops - most (75-90%) passing buses stop there and a several (5+) people board or alight.
3. Moderately busy stops - a majority (50-75%) passing buses stop there and a few (2-4) people board or alight.
4. Quiet stops - a minority (10-50%) passing buses stop there and a few (1-2) people board or alight.
5. Very quiet stops - few (<10%) passing buses stop there and a few (1-2) people board or alight.

My list above over-simplifies things as it doesn't quite take bus frequency into account.

There are two sets of stops I would target for removal (a) group 4 above - the most nuisance for the number of passengers carried (group 5 isn't as much a problem as the buses rarely stop) and (b) those that are too close together, e.g. Aungier Street inbound and Rathmines Road Lower outbound.

Aungier Street inbound - 120 metres apart. I suspect the southern one was originally on Redmonds Hill. https://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Aungier+Street%2FR114&daddr=Aungier+Street%2FR114&hl=en&ll=53.339503,-6.26564&spn=0.002658,0.007639&sll=53.34033,-6.265554&sspn=0.00188,0.003819&geocode=FWfjLQMddWOg_w%3BFZXnLQMdZGSg_w&t=m&mra=dme&mrsp=1&sz=18&z=17

Rathmines Road Lower outbound - 120 metres apart. It may have made sense once upon a time when the post office was at the southern stop, but not really any more. https://maps.google.ie/maps?saddr=Rathmines+Road+Lower%2FR114&daddr=Rathmines+Road+Lower%2FR114&hl=en&ll=53.327234,-6.264406&spn=0.002659,0.007639&sll=53.326609,-6.264688&sspn=0.000665,0.00191&geocode=Fcu2LQMdhmig_w%3BFYKyLQMds2eg_w&mra=mift&mrsp=1&sz=19&t=m&z=17

There are some stops that can be too busy, e.g. the one outside Eason's on O'Connell Street. sometimes so many people are boarding the 123 that the next 123 catches up with it.

Notably, RTPI has shifted passenger behaviour, with RTPI stops now busier and non-RTPI stops quieter than previously.

Moving away from driver-passenger interaction as much as possible is just as important as rationalising stops.

micraX

steveblack wrote: »

Of all the complaints here, too expensive,too slow, dwell times at stops.
Each and everyone of them could be reduced by removing at least 20% if not 30% of the bus stops.
As a driver i can tell you it would impact on at worst 5% of passengers. These 5% are causing serious delays and price increases for the 95%.


1.A bus burns most fuel getting moving from a stop, oil is only going up in price, each year will mean increased fare prices. Remove some stops = a pause on fare rises.

2. Less stops , the bus spends less time accelerating and decelerating, can maintain a higher average speed.

3.Dwell times. Enough said

Some routes are ridiculous, you could be at one stop and be able to lip read people waiting at the next.

If you have any friends from outside ireland ask them what they think about the number of stops, they will all say too many.

Kill two birds with one stone, improve public transport and help with the growing obesity problem in the country by removing some of the stops.

I hope your stop is removed

Shedite27

39a inbound, 3 stops in 350m along Waterloo Road and Baggott Street.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Examples/Google-Map/?routeNumber=39A&direction=IO&towards=Ongar&from=UCD+Belfield

Mrs OBumble

You also need to consider how long people have walked for to get to the stop: there are a lot of stops on Doughiksa Rd, but the idea is to have all houses within X metres of a stop.

There is a stop on Galway's Parkmore Rd that I'd delete - but I've almost never seen anyone use it.

TheBandicoot

Or again on the 39a, there are 24 stops between Ongar and the Blanch centre in the citybound direction. The problem is that at peak times you will be stopping at every single one of these typically(even if just for one or two people), and that really slows the service down. You could cut every second stop out around the Harstown/Huntstown Whitestown loop and I don't think there would be a major problem for people getting to the remaining stops.

LXFlyer

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Or again on the 39a, there are 24 stops between Ongar and the Blanch centre in the citybound direction. The problem is that at peak times you will be stopping at every single one of these typically(even if just for one or two people), and that really slows the service down. You could cut every second stop out around the Harstown/Huntstown Whitestown loop and I don't think there would be a major problem for people getting to the remaining stops.

As the previous poster points out, you have to bear in mind that people may have to walk a reasonable distance through their estates to get to the road that the bus operates on. They don't all live on the main road.


While you probably could take out a few stops, I'd be very reluctant to start taking out every second stop.

dfx-

It's 300m to my nearest stop of a route operating a 75 minute frequency. It's 500m to the nearest 'corridor' of routes across one of the busiest roads in the country.

A few years ago, the stop was removed for major roadworks, so the nearest corridor stop was 650m away, across one of the busiest roads in the country.

coylemj

I understand the point the OP is making and what others are saying about the area potentially covered by each stop being more than just the road on which the stop is located but in my experience it's the people paying cash who are the big problem holding up buses these days. Last weekend was a complete disaster and it wasn't the tourists, it was the locals who as usual got on the bus and only then started to fumble for coins in their wallets/handbags. One guy was so unprepared that we had passed about four stops by the time he agreed the fare with the driver, sorted out the coins he needed and got his ticket! Even some of the students getting on at UCD insist on paying cash which I find seriously mind boggling.

End of rant.

thisisadamh

The N11 is the worst for stops close together. If the one that I use is closed, I would not care as it take 60 seconds maximum to walk to the next one!

thomasj

TheBandicoot wrote: »

Or again on the 39a, there are 24 stops between Ongar and the Blanch centre in the citybound direction. The problem is that at peak times you will be stopping at every single one of these typically(even if just for one or two people), and that really slows the service down. You could cut every second stop out around the Harstown/Huntstown Whitestown loop and I don't think there would be a major problem for people getting to the remaining stops.

11 of those stops are in the ongar area and that's a smaller area than from the new ongar road to blanchardstown centre

MGWR

Some frequent routes are going to need to have "limited stop" variant journeys, which skip minor stops and stop only at major road junctions/transfer points. What with the stilted decades-old implementation of "QBCs", this ought to have been commonplace already.

AlekSmart

coylemj wrote: »

I understand the point the OP is making and what others are saying about the area potentially covered by each stop being more than just the road on which the stop is located but in my experience it's the people paying cash who are the big problem holding up buses these days. Last weekend was a complete disaster and it wasn't the tourists, it was the locals who as usual got on the bus and only then started to fumble for coins in their wallets/handbags. One guy was so unprepared that we had passed about four stops by the time he agreed the fare with the driver, sorted out the coins he needed and got his ticket! Even some of the students getting on at UCD insist on paying cash which I find seriously mind boggling.

End of rant.

Don't apologize...It simply confirms my long held incredulity and ongoing lack of confidence in our Third Level process......Quite often it get's embarrassing too.....:o

thisisadamh

AlekSmart wrote: »

Don't apologize...It simply confirms my long held incredulity and ongoing lack of confidence in our Third Level process......Quite often it get's embarrassing too.....:o

They should just make the standard cash fare €3.50 (something high, but not crazy high). If you want the lower, staged fare, use leap.

The move to using leap cards for the rambler tickets is the start of this process. This way more people will get the leap card and not use cash.

LeinsterDub

Would it be possible or understandable to have peak only stops? So from say 7-9 and 5-7 those of us using to get in and out of work would experence an improved and streamlined service and outside these hours would have the benefit of lots of stops?

paddyland

One thing I found was this - on the N11 corridor, traffic is jammed outbound in the evening peak, but the outbound bus lane is the best and most practical in the city. There is a green wave for outbound traffic, which theoretically means that once you get one green light, you get a series of green lights once you travel at the optimum speed.

However, a stopping bus misses this green wave, and usually ends up having to stop at every red light on the road. This, added to the number of bus stops (generally one bus stop after each set of lights) is the equivalent of doubling the stopping time. I drove out the N11 one evening and got every single green light the whole way. It took ten or twelve minutes to get from Donnybrook to Cherrywood. I'm sure the 145 passengers would love to be able to do that!

It's not an easy one to solve, as by nature, the dwell time at each stop will be forever variable. But it is ridiculously frustrating for bus passengers to have to stop at every bus stop, and then have to stop at every red traffic light as well. Who wants to sit in a packed, stuffy bus for an hour or more, spending more time sitting stationary, than you do actually moving.

Victor

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Would it be possible or understandable to have peak only stops? So from say 7-9 and 5-7 those of us using to get in and out of work would experence an improved and streamlined service and outside these hours would have the benefit of lots of stops?

But peak times would be the times that those stops get used the most.

Putting some (not all) buses on a limited stops basis might make more sense - as the buses would complete their journey more quickly, the frequency could actually be increased. Taking the example of the N11 corridor, the 145 could serve every stop from Bray to Foxrock Church and then go limited stops. The 46a could serve every stop from Foxrock Church to UCD and then go limited stops. The 39a could serve every stop from UCD to Leeson Street and then all three routes could sever all stops from Leeson Street to the city.

The following buses are already limited stops:
25x Towards Lucan
32x Towards Malahide
41x Towards Swords
66x Towards Maynooth
67x Towards Celbridge (Salesian College)

While these routes have a limited number of departures:
7b Towards Mountjoy Sq.
7d Towards Mountjoy Sq.
46e Towards Mountjoy Sq.
116 Towards Parnell Sq.
118 Towards D'Olier St.

corktina

lxflyer wrote: »

As the previous poster points out, you have to bear in mind that people may have to walk a reasonable distance through their estates to get to the road that the bus operates on. They don't all live on the main road.


While you probably could take out a few stops, I'd be very reluctant to start taking out every second stop.

you have to bear in mind too that some of those people will be at the limit of what they can walk and it exactly those people who need the bus and will suffer if the stops are thinned out

Shedite27

Victor wrote: »

Putting some (not all) buses on a limited stops basis might make more sense - as the buses would complete their journey more quickly, the frequency could actually be increased. Taking the example of the N11 corridor, the 145 could serve every stop from Bray to Foxrock Church and then go limited stops. The 46a could serve every stop from Foxrock Church to UCD and then go limited stops. The 39a could serve every stop from UCD to Leeson Street and then all three routes could sever all stops from Leeson Street to the city.

Yeah that's what needs to happen on the N11. Silly at the moment that I have the choice of all three on my doorstep, an express service would be more beneficial for those coming from Cabinteely etc.

corktina wrote: »

you have to bear in mind too that some of those people will be at the limit of what they can walk and it exactly those people who need the bus and will suffer if the stops are thinned out

See above Tina, we're not talking bout removing stops, just reducing the frequency at stops from 2 - 7 mns.

corktina

Shedite27 wrote: »

See above Tina, we're not talking bout removing stops, just reducing the frequency at stops from 2 - 7 mns.

yeah? reads the post I quoted (and the thread title!)

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

Putting some (not all) buses on a limited stops basis might make more sense - as the buses would complete their journey more quickly, the frequency could actually be increased. Taking the example of the N11 corridor, the 145 could serve every stop from Bray to Foxrock Church and then go limited stops. The 46a could serve every stop from Foxrock Church to UCD and then go limited stops. The 39a could serve every stop from UCD to Leeson Street and then all three routes could sever all stops from Leeson Street to the city.

I'd go with a variation on that - at off-peak times designate each stop between Foxrock Church and UCD as being served by either the 46A or 145 so each of those buses could skip every second stop.

It often happens at the moment that you'd get an inbound 145 or 46A bus at an off-peak time at Foxrock Church, it would have no bus behind it for 10 minutes so it has to stop at every stop, a lot of people are paying cash as they are not regular commuters, then as soon as you get to the Stillorgan Park hotel you get passed out by another bus that has been passing empty bus stops behind you. It would make more sense if the off-peak buses served every second stop which would fix that problem.

Pete_Cavan

Drumcondra Road and Dorset street are also very bad. There are 6 stops in less than 1km between the Drumcondra Station stop and the last stop on Dorset Street. 4 of these are on Dorset Street between the Big Tree and when the bus turns onto North Fredrick Street! This could easily be reduced without putting excessively long walks on people.

MGWR

coylemj wrote: »

I understand the point the OP is making and what others are saying about the area potentially covered by each stop being more than just the road on which the stop is located but in my experience it's the people paying cash who are the big problem holding up buses these days. Last weekend was a complete disaster and it wasn't the tourists, it was the locals who as usual got on the bus and only then started to fumble for coins in their wallets/handbags. One guy was so unprepared that we had passed about four stops by the time he agreed the fare with the driver, sorted out the coins he needed and got his ticket! Even some of the students getting on at UCD insist on paying cash which I find seriously mind boggling.

End of rant.

Cash is not the problem. It's the means of collecting it. Back when there were conductors, dwell times were much more rapid, even with buses that had but one entrance/exit door. Non-cash media are really no faster, and are increasingly less trusted.

Tourists bring revenue to the country.

coylemj

MGWR wrote: »

Cash is not the problem. It's the means of collecting it. Back when there were conductors, dwell times were much more rapid, even with buses that had but one entrance/exit door.

What's your point - bring back conductors? And don't the vast majority of buses in Dublin these days still use one exit/egress point?

MGWR wrote: »

Non-cash media are really no faster, and are increasingly less trusted.

They're 'no faster' than what - a line of people stretching out onto the footpath, all fumbling with coins? Do you even use the buses in Dublin?

What's your basis for saying that they are 'increasingly less trusted' - who says so?

MGWR wrote: »

Tourists bring revenue to the country.

I explicitly said that tourists were not the issue, did you even read my post?

cdebru

MGWR wrote: »

Cash is not the problem. It's the means of collecting it. Back when there were conductors, dwell times were much more rapid, even with buses that had but one entrance/exit door. Non-cash media are really no faster, and are increasingly less trusted.

Tourists bring revenue to the country.

Well they won't be bringing back conductors anytime soon, and you are completely wrong non cash media are much faster, but it is the way our fare structure is set up is the problem. A flat fare would sort that out look at how quickly people using the side card reader board the bus compared to those who because of the archaic stage fare system have to visit the driver to board.

Also london has about 2.5 times the number of overseas tourists visiting compared to the whole of Ireland and yet by this summer they reckon London buses will be 99% cashless. The "oh won't someone think of the tourists" doesn't stand up it is not rocket science look at what London does.

http://visitorshop.tfl.gov.uk/oystercard/product/oyster-card.html

Gillo

Previously I would have agreed with reducing the stops. That being said while as a passenger it's frustrating the bus barely pulling off and pulling in to a another stop, I can't help looking at it from the point of view of the elderly (we're all going to grow old), the disabled or someone unfortunate enough to break a leg etc; the more stops the shorter the distance these people will have to travel to get the bus. And yes I'll curse this post tomorrow morning when my bus takes ages to get me to work.

Perhaps a compromise would be and express route which only stops at certain stops, which are clearly marked as such so people know which ones they are. The bus I get leaves every ten minutes in rush hour, it's not unusual for one bus to catch up with the other and they can effectively "bunny hop" their way along the route, each one only serving the second stop until close to town. I speeds up the travel time which suits me.

Cuddlesworth

paddyland wrote: »

One thing I found was this - on the N11 corridor, traffic is jammed outbound in the evening peak, but the outbound bus lane is the best and most practical in the city. There is a green wave for outbound traffic, which theoretically means that once you get one green light, you get a series of green lights once you travel at the optimum speed.

There is no green wave on the n11. I drove a motorbike up that bus lane for 5 years, it doesn't exist.

loyatemu

there's clearly too many stops but good luck trying to remove any of them - calls to Joe Duffy, letters to TDs etc will ensue, won't somebody think of the elderly etc. I've been on buses in a few other countries and I've never seen stops as close together as they are here. In many places you can stand at a stop and clearly see the next 2 stops in both directions.

in the BRT thread there's been some discussion of the substandard nature of many of Dublin's bus stops with not enough space for buses to pull in properly, or for passengers to queue safely - this is another consequence of the proliferation of stops, to upgrade them all would cost a fortune.

Mrs OBumble

MGWR wrote: »

Non-cash media are really no faster, and are increasingly less trusted.

Tourists bring revenue to the country.

And 99% of tourists are smart enough to buy a Leap card since it's cheaper. It's the locals who have a problem copping on.

I can assure you that my TaxSaver ticket loads into the bus far faster than someone with a cash-fare.

AlekSmart

MGWR wrote: »

Cash is not the problem. It's the means of collecting it. Back when there were conductors, dwell times were much more rapid, even with buses that had but one entrance/exit door. Non-cash media are really no faster, and are increasingly less trusted.

Tourists bring revenue to the country.

Absolutely NOT.....the vast majority of Tourists/Visitors I encounter daily are having far more difficulty with the Cash end of things.

The NTA really needs to get it's finger out on a NON-Deposit Leap Card for visitor use...Buy 'N Go...The €5 deposit is a bit much for a visitor,particularly as the administration surrounding it's redemption is so drawn out.

The ongoing,and blatently apparent Problem is not with the concept of Cashless,but with the Oul Gods Time Traditional Irish insistence on trying to please EVERY possible combination of users and ending up satisfying NONE of them.

The BAC Wayfarer is being asked to switch between :eek:18 :eek:different fare classifications in addition to DSFP and Other Pass inputs, at wildly differing rates at EVERY stop,in addition to processing the remote validator information...contrast this to the oft-quoted London Buses Wayfarer which has ONE cash fare and ONE Oyster Fare...you don't need to be Steve Job's to fathom WHY the BAC Leapcard "Experience" remains less than it should be !!!

I'm still slightly curious as to what exactly the €40 Million and 12 Years brought us to...?
It certainly was'nt an acceptable level of Functionality,thats no longer open to arguement....I would like a more detailed breakdown from the ITS people,outlining exactly WHAT individual elements of the ITS plan cost,as I am getting a sensation that a LOT of that €40 Mil went on Consultancy....;)

LuckyLloyd

I'm not against removing a limited number of stops, i.e. the 10% most ridiculous, but the biggest single improvement would be abolishment of cash fares. You just have to do it and it's done. The Leap card system has been a massive failure. It should be drop into a newsagent, buy a starter card and go from there with top up machines gradually rolled out to bus stops on top of all ticket agents. €2.50 per journey whether it be one stop or 50. Tourists will buy into this. Do you think I'm ****ing around with cash in London?

AlekSmart

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not against removing a limited number of stops, i.e. the 10% most ridiculous, but the biggest single improvement would be abolishment of cash fares. You just have to do it and it's done. The Leap card system has been a massive failure. It should be drop into a newsagent, buy a starter card and go from there with top up machines gradually rolled out to bus stops on top of all ticket agents. €2.50 per journey whether it be one stop or 50. Tourists will buy into this. Do you think I'm ****ing around with cash in London?

I'm still dumbfounded that they have'nt cottoned on to the SIMPLE expedient of installing a Reader on RTPI poles,programmed to act as a LOAD-POINT for online top-ups...It's as if the NTA wishes that all of this computer stuff would just GO AWAY...:D

Instead of focusing on the vast gaps in Leapcard's functionality,it now goes careering off on a half-cocked danse macabre with Bus Eireann in Cork...Get the basic package right and then move it on...!!!

Patrickheg

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

There is a stop on Galway's Parkmore Rd that I'd delete - but I've almost never seen anyone use it.

I think I know the one you are talking about but apparently hundreds if not thousands of people use it.

Iwannahurl wrote: »

There's another one I noticed recently in Ballybrit, Galway, where numerous large firms are concentrated and hundreds if not thousands are employed. Bus users are expected to stand on grass in all weathers, with no shelter or pedestrian access provided. In this StreetView image, the bus stop sign is being commandeered for commercial advertising.

Or what way was that poster trying to 'bend facts' that day?

Mrs OBumble

Patrickheg wrote: »

I think I know the one you are talking about but apparently hundreds if not thousands of people use it.

The one at the top of the Avenue entrance to the racecourse - and which is always closed during the races anyway due to the traffic issues at the intersection? No way do hundreds use it - there's not even a footpath to stand on, the pole is just there in the grass. I suspect it's a leftover from the days before Parkmore Industrial and the No 9 bus,

The other two, beside Briarhill Business Park and Galway Technology Park, are both essential, and I'd agree there would be thousands over the course of a year.

Patrickheg

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

The one at the top of the Avenue entrance to the racecourse - and which is always closed during the races anyway due to the traffic issues at the intersection? No way do hundreds use it - there's not even a footpath to stand on, the pole is just there in the grass. I suspect it's a leftover from the days before Parkmore Industrial and the No 9 bus,

The other two, beside Briarhill Business Park and Galway Technology Park, are both essential, and I'd agree there would be thousands over the course of a year.

I agree with you that stop is very rarely used, just found it funny that poster I quoted indicates otherwise to suit an argument he was having at the time.

That bus route is not that old, maybe 6or7 years old(buses never went down park more road before this) and that stop was there from day 1 so guessing it's to serve the cottages

MGWR

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not against removing a limited number of stops, i.e. the 10% most ridiculous, but the biggest single improvement would be aboli(tion) of cash fares. You just have to do it and it's done. The Leap card system has been a massive failure. It should be drop into a newsagent, buy a starter card and go from there with top up machines gradually rolled out to bus stops on top of all ticket agents. €2.50 per journey whether it be one stop or 50. Tourists will buy into this. Do you think I'm ****ing around with cash in London?

No cash, no wealth. There is no way I'm trusting my money to an entity that can delete it with one hack or one glitch, never mind the whims of a central government that decided a couple of years ago that it can confiscate bank accounts at will. And maintaining newsagents as ticket agents is a large expense to the public. Any no-cash-fare bus system means I choose to drive, thanks.

As for London, that's by design and may prove to be quite the folly.

Tourists' biggest problem with mass transport of an unknown city is unfamiliarity with routes, not perceived ease/difficulty of paying fare.

cdebru

MGWR wrote: »

No cash, no wealth. There is no way I'm trusting my money to an entity that can delete it with one hack or one glitch, never mind the whims of a central government that decided a couple of years ago that it can confiscate bank accounts at will. And maintaining newsagents as ticket agents is a large expense to the public. Any no-cash-fare bus system means I choose to drive, thanks.

As for London, that's by design and may prove to be quite the folly.

Tourists' biggest problem with mass transport of an unknown city is unfamiliarity with routes, not perceived ease/difficulty of paying fare.

So you don't keep money in the bank ? Must be a big mattress you have it all safely stored under.

Just to state the obvious but you don't need to put your life savings on a leap card, and if it is lost or stolen, if you registered it you can get your money back, hard to do that with cash. Seems bizzare that you would think it safer to carry cash with you and pay 20% more for the privilege than risk the off chance that some cyber terrorists might steal your €20..........weird.

AlekSmart

MGWR wrote: »

No cash, no wealth. There is no way I'm trusting my money to an entity that can delete it with one hack or one glitch, never mind the whims of a central government that decided a couple of years ago that it can confiscate bank accounts at will. And maintaining newsagents as ticket agents is a large expense to the public. Any no-cash-fare bus system means I choose to drive, thanks.

As for London, that's by design and may prove to be quite the folly.

Tourists' biggest problem with mass transport of an unknown city is unfamiliarity with routes, not perceived ease/difficulty of paying fare.

I would venture then MGWR,that you are putting yourself outside the Public Transport Pale.

You may well be in that group for whom Public Transport cannot ever succeed.

Only the ineptitude of the NTA's Integrated Ticketing Implimentation Group has,thus far,allowed your desire to preserve the Ancien Régime to be granted.

If (and its a BIG If) the NTA can apply some forward thinking professionalism to a renewed Leapcard push,then your vision of Public Transport will be sepia-toned.

However,going on their track-record (:rolleyes:) to date,you may well be allowed to enforce your particular desire on everybody else for a lot longer...