Why is buying an Electric Car so hard?

cros13

So.... I've been on a little journey over the past 2 year lusting after an electric car. I need to have a bit of a moan about this so apologies for dumping it on everyone but my mates are at this point sick of hearing about it.

I'm pretty much the ideal early adopter with:
A charging point at work & home & everywhere I want to go.
Ireland has a pretty good charger network and short distances for when I want to go elsewhere
Cheap-rate fixed price electricity
Decent enough disposable income

So at first I looked at the Tesla Model S and I loved the look of it. I got a test drive in one of the pre-production units at CES and as soon as I got home I put down my €4000 deposit.

Then Tesla announced their European pricing... It would be a stretch but I could still afford the lowest spec Model S with a couple of extras. In the meantime the Government took the VRT exemption away the €5000 grant that replaced the VRT exemption it is only available if you buy through a dealer in Ireland (and Tesla don't have a store here).... which didn't matter to me 'cause VRT being applied at all made the Model S immediately unaffordable. And with no clear OMSP I started having nightmares with demonic Revenue inspectors valuing the thing at €120,000 OMSP. So after briefly considering moving to Newry for 6 months to get off the VRT I cancelled my order and got back my deposit.

So then I went for a test drive in a Nissan Leaf.... which was great.... except few of the options I wanted/needed were available in Ireland and the ones that did brought the price north of €40000 even after the grant. Also the range was just to short for one of my regular trips and with a bit of age on the battery I could imagine a lot of range anxiety. The main thing is it was ending up too expensive for what it was.

So now I'm looking at the BMW i3 which with the range extender will go everywhere I need it to. Has all the options I want etc. etc. Much nippier than the Leaf with better styling (my opinion) and starting at €33000. Great. But after the range extender and the option packs are added Joe Duffy wants €52,000 which is... *drum roll*... just €2,000 off the price of a base model Tesla Model S if the VRT exemption was still there.

And now I'm browsing cheap places to rent in Newry on Daft.ie again... and people wonder why only 50 or so electric cars sold in Ireland last year...

Jaybor

My other half was crazy into getting a Nissan Leaf.
We test drove one and loved it.
But changed our minds after doing research on it.

It might barely have been ok with the current range, but there are just too many variables.

If I could just get one that you could charge anywhere including plugging it in at poeples house that we visit, instead of all the extra stuff you have to buy and choose between ways to charge it.
Or if it had 50km more range than it does.

But the thing that really thew a spanner in the works was the thread on boards about the person who bought a leaf in the UK and Nissan wouldnt even give him another car while the leaf was in getting repaired.

I dont need the hassle.

What I want is a car that does 150Km on a charge, that I can charge at home, out and about with fast or slow chargers, and that i can charge at anyones house who i visit. And I expect proper service from the makers.

Sorry but the leaf is out. So is any option where I have to lease the battery. I dotn want to be paying extra monthly for a battery. Thats the whole point of an electric car. Reduced costs and feel good about the environment factor. Paying monthly for a battery is not the way to do that.

And they are too expensive for what they are too.

We were a little let down at the end of it all.

tw0nk

I don't think its hard OP, it's just too expensive for what it is in my opinion. Most new tech is over-priced and early adopters end up paying a premium for tech that has flaws but they are paying to be trailblazers and the first to get their hands on the next wave of innovation.

It is a real pity the govt have replaced the VRT exemption with a 5000 grant, I wasn't aware that it had to be bought from an Irish dealer, it doesn't say anything about that here: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html

cros13

tw0nk wrote: »

I don't think its hard OP, it's just too expensive for what it is in my opinion. Most new tech is over-priced and early adopters end up paying a premium for tech that has flaws but they are paying to be trailblazers and the first to get their hands on the next wave of innovation.

It is a real pity the govt have replaced the VRT exemption with a 5000 grant, I wasn't aware that it had to be bought from an Irish dealer, it doesn't say anything about that here: http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vrt/vrt-guide.html

The Dealer AND the vehicle model must be registered with Dept Environment. Here's the List:
http://www.seai.ie/Grants/Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme/I_am_a_dealer/Current_List_of_Registered_Dealers/List_of_Registered_Electric_Vehicle_Grant_Scheme_Dealers.html

I'm willing to pay the price premium for electric but it's really annoying how there is basically none of the supports here that you would get in other countries. Even the grants we have evaporate when you read the fine print.

cros13

Jaybor wrote: »

If I could just get one that you could charge anywhere including plugging it in at poeples house that we visit, instead of all the extra stuff you have to buy and choose between ways to charge it.
Or if it had 50km more range than it does.

Yeah, I wasn't impressed that so much of the essential charging related stuff were costly options. In particular the charging cabling allowing you to plug into a standard 230V socket was something like €800 extra.

BMJD

Have you considered a Vauxhall Ampera? You can get a used one in the UK for ~£20k used, should be able to have it here and registered for €25k.

air

Are electric 2nd hand UK imports still vrt exempt?
The revenue vrt calculator seems to indicate that they are.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

There should be a EV option that is cheaper than the relevant ICE car to encourage change.

Higher prices never worked.

ninty9er

cros13 wrote: »

I'm willing to pay the price premium for electric but it's really annoying how there is basically none of the supports here that you would get in other countries. Even the grants we have evaporate when you read the fine print.

Just out of curiosity, what are other governments doing?

dr.fuzzenstein

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

There should be a EV option that is cheaper than the relevant ICE car to encourage change.

Higher prices never worked.

Sadly that's not how things work here, we don't do encouragement and support. It's tax hammer or ban hammer.
So you'll be wanting to buy one of dem electric cars? Jaysus, ill tell you now, t'will cosht ya!

Cleveland Hot Pocket

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Sadly that's not how things work here, we don't do encouragement and support. It's tax hammer or ban hammer.
So you'll be wanting to buy one of dem electric cars? Jaysus, ill tell you now, t'will cosht ya!

We don't even do the emissions taxes right so I would tend to agree.
Sometimes Ireland is progressive but most of the time we are stuck with regressive DeValera-esque policies.

I don't see why we don't go for either the french model - tax on fuel , no motor tax, and then tolled motorways, or alternatively the UK model, realistic tax levels capped at about 500quid p/a.
However we go for the worst of both worlds. High fuel taxes, high motor taxes and then also tolled roads that are already paid for.

Sometimes I really hate this country's regressive attitude to motoring, I really do. If it were not for my job (would be difficult to get the same pay anywhere else) I would have left the country and moved to the US a long time ago.

Soooo.... what's a rant :P

ironclaw

Just want to say fair play to the OP for considering something other than the Leaf. Only EV I would consider is the Telsa Roadster and its definitely on the list in a few years if I had a little extra to spend. Let us know how you get on!

ninty9er

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

We don't even do the emissions taxes right so I would tend to agree.
Sometimes Ireland is progressive but most of the time we are stuck with regressive DeValera-esque policies.

I don't see why we don't go for either the french model - tax on fuel , no motor tax, and then tolled motorways, or alternatively the UK model, realistic tax levels capped at about 500quid p/a.
However we go for the worst of both worlds. High fuel taxes, high motor taxes and then also tolled roads that are already paid for.

Sometimes I really hate this country's regressive attitude to motoring, I really do. If it were not for my job (would be difficult to get the same pay anywhere else) I would have left the country and moved to the US a long time ago.

Soooo.... what's a rant :P

There is a quite simple economic term economies of scale; this enables those countries to have lower taxes. If we had a per capita road network of a similar size it wouldn't be a problem, but we have almost as much public road as 80 million Germans.

Cleveland Hot Pocket

ninty9er wrote: »

There is a quite simple economic term economies of scale; this enables those countries to have lower taxes. If we had a per capita road network of a similar size it wouldn't be a problem, but we have almost as much public road as 80 million Germans.

I don't accept that argument.
We didn't always have such a high level of motor taxation. In fact up until the 2000s we had almost zero tolls, and also our motor taxation rates were on a par with the UK.

ninty9er

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

We don't even do the emissions taxes right so I would tend to agree.
Sometimes Ireland is progressive but most of the time we are stuck with regressive DeValera-esque policies.

I don't see why we don't go for either the french model - tax on fuel , no motor tax, and then tolled motorways, or alternatively the UK model, realistic tax levels capped at about 500quid p/a.
However we go for the worst of both worlds. High fuel taxes, high motor taxes and then also tolled roads that are already paid for.

Sometimes I really hate this country's regressive attitude to motoring, I really do. If it were not for my job (would be difficult to get the same pay anywhere else) I would have left the country and moved to the US a long time ago.

Soooo.... what's a rant :P

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I don't accept that argument.
We didn't always have such a high level of motor taxation. In fact up until the 2000s we had almost zero tolls, and also our motor taxation rates were on a par with the UK.

But they weren't sustainable.

overshoot

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I don't accept that argument.
We didn't always have such a high level of motor taxation. In fact up until the 2000s we had almost zero tolls, and also our motor taxation rates were on a par with the UK.

we had almost 0 motorways too!
and they tax on fuel, about 15-20c a litre difference for diesel

mitosis

I could make the same argument for a petrol car as the OP. I want it but can't afford it. OP, buy in your price range, don't be an "early adapter", if four years down the road really is early.

mitosis

In some ways it is like buying a car with a tiny petrol tank and expecting your workplace and your friends all to have petrol pumps. In my opinion electric cars as we have now will prove to be the Betamax of EVs

ironclaw

mitosis wrote: »

In some ways it is like buying a car with a tiny petrol tank and expecting your workplace and your friends all to have petrol pumps. In my opinion electric cars as we have now will prove to be the Betamax of EVs

Yeah I was thinking about this during the week. I'm driving a shade over 5 years and in that time I average perhaps 30 litres of petrol per week. Thats 7,800 litres in that time. And thats just me. So if you multiply that out by the number of motorists in Ireland, and then even try to boggle that of the entire planet, you can just begin to appreciate how far EV has to come before it can even be considered a reasonable option.

I know I mentioned my soft spot for the Tesla Roadster, but even if I won the lotto, it would merely be a fun side car. Nothing more and thats coming from someone who would consider themselves pretty environmentally aware.

My biggest argument against EV is the cold, wet night you have to come back from Galway to Dublin. Is there any EV that can do that in comfort? Heaters on, lights on, slight bit of traffic to hold you up etc? I may be wrong but i don't think so. And that would worry me a lot. Unless a piece of tech can replace or better a current piece of tech, its just a gadget in my opinion.

overshoot

ironclaw wrote: »

My biggest argument against EV is the cold, wet night you have to come back from Galway to Dublin. Is there any EV that can do that in comfort? Heaters on, lights on, slight bit of traffic to hold you up etc? I may be wrong but i don't think so. And that would worry me a lot. Unless a piece of tech can replace or better a current piece of tech, its just a gadget in my opinion.

i think its safe enough to assume as of yet these cars will only suit some people (not trying to be smart but dubs who do bugger all mileage) If even once a week you want to go for a drive to somewhere thats 1hr away, even a sunday drive, the car would very quickly become a pain in the hole

the leaf can do 150km, that would leave me 70km short of making the trip (one way) from donegal town to dublin. my golf will make that trip 5 times on a 80euro fill. hell if i wanted to go to sligo (dublin drogheda/navan distance) the leaf would be on <20% charge when i got home (without detours)

Senecio

You said it yourself, you're an early adopter. By definition it won't be easy or we'd all be early adopters.

Stick with it, it's people like you that forge a path for others to follow. I hope you get that Tesla one day.

Gumbo

cros13 wrote: »

So then I went for a test drive in a Nissan Leaf.... which was great.... except few of the options I wanted/needed were available in Ireland and the ones that did brought the price north of €40000 even after the grant. Also the range was just to short for one of my regular trips and with a bit of age on the battery I could imagine a lot of range anxiety. The main thing is it was ending up too expensive for what it was.

Just wondering OP, what were you specc'ing to bring the leaf to 40k.
I thought the top model SVE was 26k and there's not a lot of options available for it.

I8A4RE

Its a bit of a liberty that people assume their friends and families would presumably allow ev owners to charge up when they visit.

Gumbo

I8A4RE wrote: »

Its a bit of a liberty that people assume their friends and families would presumably allow ev owners to charge up when they visit.

Considering it costs €1.70 for a 0-100% charge with the leafy it's not a lot. But if he was visiting everyday then I'd give him a smack

keithclancy

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

I don't accept that argument.
We didn't always have such a high level of motor taxation. In fact up until the 2000s we had almost zero tolls, and also our motor taxation rates were on a par with the UK.

The roads were also crap and people were poor, cars were relatively expensive.

jedwardreally

Have to disagree with what people are saying about the Leaf. I own a small dull Japanese car and I needed to get a second car.
I "bought" a mid to high spec new Nissan Leaf which will cost me €5000,00 per year over the next three years on a lease and I will then hand it back.
I have been spending roughly €2000.00 a year on petrol and about €600.00 on maintenance and road tax.
So the question I had was would I pay €2,400 per annum for a lease or take the depreciation on another car.
I like the Leaf which is super quiet and quite a big car. It is ugly, but so are most of the other cars in this segment, VW Golf, Renault etc.
All the stuff about range has turned out to be completely irrelevant to me. I charge the car at home every other day and drive about 300 miles a week. The idea that I might get into a petrol car and get "anxious" because I "only" had 100 mile range is just nonsense. There are also lots of chargers around the place if you want a free top up. Over 1000 now I believe.
I live in Dublin but if I lived in Wicklow,Kildare,Meath,Louth and commuted this would be a complete no brainer.

Scottie99

Here's a positive story..
http://m.green.autoblog.com/2013/06/03/one-nissan-leaf-driver-puts-on-78-000-miles-in-two-years/

September1

It is not hard, you give them money and you get a car. LEAF is now about 3 years on the roads and you are saved from many early adopters problems. Unfortunately choice is still way smaller than ICE and it will stay so for years to come. Now if you are spending so much money on car it better be suiting not only your needs but also your wishes. If you like i3 then wait a bit and buy it second hand from UK where they get full grants and VRT saving is still same.

Jaybor

jedwardreally wrote: »

Have to disagree with what people are saying about the Leaf. I own a small dull Japanese car and I needed to get a second car.
I "bought" a mid to high spec new Nissan Leaf which will cost me €5000,00 per year over the next three years on a lease and I will then hand it back.
I have been spending roughly €2000.00 a year on petrol and about €600.00 on maintenance and road tax.
So the question I had was would I pay €2,400 per annum for a lease or take the depreciation on another car.
I like the Leaf which is super quiet and quite a big car. It is ugly, but so are most of the other cars in this segment, VW Golf, Renault etc.
All the stuff about range has turned out to be completely irrelevant to me. I charge the car at home every other day and drive about 300 miles a week. The idea that I might get into a petrol car and get "anxious" because I "only" had 100 mile range is just nonsense. There are also lots of chargers around the place if you want a free top up. Over 1000 now I believe.
I live in Dublin but if I lived in Wicklow,Kildare,Meath,Louth and commuted this would be a complete no brainer.

Can you spell out how that works?
eg price of car, down payment, monthly payment, balloon payment?
Thanks.

I showed this thread to the other half and the talk of getting a leaf is on again. Im against it, but i dont think it will be up to me somehow
Im allergic to interest though. If most car companies did 0% interest like is very common in the UK I would be buying cars all the time.

naughtysmurf

Jaybor wrote: »

Can you spell out how that works?
eg price of car, down payment, monthly payment, balloon payment?
Thanks.

http://www.nissan.ie/finance/

Jaybor

naughtysmurf wrote: »

http://www.nissan.ie/finance/

7.9% . €3000 to borrow the money over 3 years.
Haha. I think I might get my way. No leaf.

noelf

Jaybor wrote: »

Can you spell out how that works?
eg price of car, down payment, monthly payment, balloon payment?
Thanks.

I showed this thread to the other half and the talk of getting a leaf is on again. Im against it, but i dont think it will be up to me somehow
Im allergic to interest though. If most car companies did 0% interest like is very common in the UK I would be buying cars all the time.

0% interest loans are paid over 2 years meaning monthly payments are high E500 plus... 7.9% from nissan is too high volkswagen is 3.9% i got my new golf for 1.9%

cros13

Just an update on my situation.

I went into Joe Duffy today to have a real nose around the i3.
It's a lovely little car despite it's pricetag. I was really worried it wouldn't fit me (I'm almost 2m tall) but it did fine. Great driving position and really high quality interior.

I've a test drive booked for Friday....Already think I might be putting a deposit down next week.

noelf

cros13 wrote: »

Just an update on my situation.

I went into Joe Duffy today to have a real nose around the i3.
It's a lovely little car despite it's pricetag. I was really worried it wouldn't fit me (I'm almost 2m tall) but it did fine. Great driving position and really high quality interior.

I've a test drive booked for Friday....Already think I might be putting a deposit down next week.

Would you go full electric or with back up petrol engine ?

cros13

noelf wrote: »

Would you go full electric or with back up petrol engine ?

With the range extender. I do 1 fortnightly journey which would require either a 25 minute charging stop or the range extender and I'd like to have options.

I was told that delivery would be August/September at the earliest.

timmaii

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

There should be a EV option that is cheaper than the relevant ICE car to encourage change.

Higher prices never worked.

I hear a lot about how expensive electric cars are to buy but don't understand this argument. I was in the market for a new car recently and after doing my research I ordered a Leaf SVE. The equivalent in price for an ICE would be a 1.6 TDI Highline Golf. For the same price I get leather heated seats, automatic transmission, full surround parking cameras, larger alloys and lots more I'm sure. Plus there are loads of cool little features like being able to text your car to tell it to warm up or cool down!

noelf

Have a look at steve sutcliffs video (autocar.co.uk) on the bmw i3.

k123456

hi can anyone clarify for me vrt position

Interested in bringing in from UK, and 11 or 12 Leaf from UK

Thanks

September1

k123456 wrote: »

hi can anyone clarify for me vrt position

Interested in bringing in from UK, and 11 or 12 Leaf from UK

Thanks

You can use calculator on revenue webpage, I think currently they calculate vrt at 14% minus no more than 5000 - which means second hand LEAFs should be VRT free. UK leafs also have charging cable worth few hundred euros that allow you to use any domestic socket.

B9K9

Leaf delivered jan; 2 months pleasant driving; no range anxiety; quick enough; super smooth & quiet; Bose stereo means very good sound quality while driving. Most days 50% battery use - 60ish kms. Think big smartphone w/wheels; charge most nights. Wife likes it too. I considered civic top spec but more expensive to purchase and run; leaf spec excellent, oodles of toys, some really useful like the surround cameras. Boot could be a tad larger but OK in practice. Seats don't fold that well due to underfloor batteries. Dublin low km driver so range not an issue. If I travel far down the country, the recharge stops are the price for virtually free motoring the rest of the time (1c/km on the night rate plus a bit of street charging) If your use pattern allows, definitely its a runner. Worst thing: looks goofy but I don't mind that, not with all the savings.

drunkmonkey

Is the new Golf GTE on anyone's radar, seems like a great compromise, it'll be interesting to see the on the road and tax cost here. It's a car I'd consider if the price is right and it shold have rock solid resale values. http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/volkswagen-golf-gte-revealed-2014-02-21o

The GTE Golf, while interesting will be very expensive, my guess over 40K.

But some will pay it because it will be quick enough and cheap enough to run.

But my point always, if the E-Golf or Leaf range meets 99% of your driving needs then the expensive of an GTE is not worth it, carrying an engine that needs to be maintained for a few times of the year an all electric might not meet your needs.

Then again if you like to drive at 140-180 kph on the motorway maybe it would be better the GTE.

Either way the GTE will be a million times better than any diesel.

The GTE battery is 3 times smaller than that of the Leaf and it can't be fast charged making it even less practical, and it would mean plugging in a lot more frequently than a Leaf/ E-golf/I3 etc.

IMO the GTE is pointless when they could have made a EV with a real 100-120 miles range. For probably not much more money.

Remember the GTE does not qualify for any grant nor VRT rebate.

I would have the I3 over the GTE, can be fast charged and 7-7.4 seconds 0-100 kph, qualifies for the Grant and vrt rebate.

Gumbo

cros13 wrote: »

Just an update on my situation.

I went into Joe Duffy today to have a real nose around the i3.
It's a lovely little car despite it's pricetag. I was really worried it wouldn't fit me (I'm almost 2m tall) but it did fine. Great driving position and really high quality interior.

I've a test drive booked for Friday....Already think I might be putting a deposit down next week.

Seen a 132D i3 on the road this morning in that silver/light blue colour. Looked really well.

But OP, as per my previous post :

kceire wrote: »

Just wondering OP, what were you specc'ing to bring the leaf to 40k.
I thought the top model SVE was 26k and there's not a lot of options available for it.

Can you please clarify what options you added to the Leaf to bring the purchase price to over 49k.

The Top spec SVE is 26,390 and that's a pretty high spec car.

Options, 6.6 kw charger 900 €

Portable EVSE (granny cable) another 800 or so but some get it thrown in for free.

My guess is the car comes with it as standard from Nissan Motor CO and the Irish dealers try charge for it , it's free in the UK. Then again irish leafers get the Type II cable with the car. Still not as expensive as the portable evse.