Switching to raw progress thread; Pleasee let me know if I'm doing anything wrong :)

LeakingLava

Just finished Theo's dog food so now I'm fasting him and getting him ready for his first raw meal tomorrow. Did a little calculation on how much I should feed him. He's 7.6kg so 7600x2/100 for 2 percent of his weight, 150something. I bought tesco 1000g pack of drumsticks and there were 11 inside. 1000/11 is ~91g. So I'll be giving him 2 pieces for his meals tomorrow. 1 in the morning and 1 in the evening. What else should I give him? I'll have plenty of water prepared and I'll be watching him all day to monitor him.

DBB

Is he used to eating bones?
If he's not used to bones, I would not be starting him on a day of nothing but bones! But if he's used to them, you should be okay.
A 7.6kg dog should be fed about 150g per day if feeding him at 2% of body weight suits him as an individual... he may need more, and he may need less!
Have you factored in offal?
Are you going to add any veg?
What other meats had you in mind?
It might be worthwhile considering some supplementation of a general vitamin and mineral product, just to fill in any gaps!

LeakingLava

DBB wrote: »

Is he used to eating bones?
If he's not used to bones, I would not be starting him on a day of nothing but bones! But if he's used to them, you should be okay.
A 7.6kg dog should be fed about 150g per day if feeding him at 2% of body weight suits him as an individual... he may need more, and he may need less!
Have you factored in offal?
Are you going to add any veg?
What other meats had you in mind?
It might be worthwhile considering some supplementation of a general vitamin and mineral product, just to fill in any gaps!

I'm only switch him today so it would be his first time on anything raw. He had been eating only dry food. He's 13 weeks old now.

I've read somewhere that I should stick to just chicken first and not even consider offal in the first few days as it might upset his stomach even more if there's too much variety in the first week. Is this right at all? I'm going to be adding on offal once his poop comes back to normal and then change to another protein source next week. Is this correct?

EDIT: Doing a little more reading, what is it really, 2-3% of his actual body weight or adult weight? This website says adult weight and now I'm confused. http://rawfeddogs.org/rawguide.html

tk123

If he's only 13 weeks you'll probably end up feeding more like 10% of the pup's weight/or 4% of expected adult weigh at the start and then decreasing as the pup grows. There's no exact % because every dog is different - you'll have to watch the pup and increase or decrease as needed as he has growth spurts - a pup will look fine one day then like a skeleton the next as they grow! My retriever pup is 10 months now and gets around 1kg a day - 8 duck necks and either good quality wet food (we use Rocco junior from zooplus or NatureDiet) or a mince from one of the dog meat suppliers. I wouldn't be switching protein source after a week and I wouldn't be worried about offal at this stage either tbh - give the pup a few weeks to get used to one meat and then you can try different things. I didn't give my pup anything with a bone in until she was 4 or 5 months old. Now I've seen videos on youtube of 6 week old pups eating chicken quarters etc but I felt more comfortable feeding her minced chicken/duck/beef for the first few months especially when she was teething and loosing teeth. I have a mincer so easy enough for me to mince things but you could maybe go for chicken wings and slice them up nice and small to be safe or just buy some mince from on of the dog meat suppliers eg dogsfirst/Slaney/dogfooddirect. If you're in/near Dublin the IKC dog expo is on in Cloughran today so you might get a bargain from Slaney or DogsFirst - I don't know if DF will be there but Slaney will be. Also if your pup has his vaccinations it'd be great for socialisation for him

LeakingLava

tk123 wrote: »

If he's only 13 weeks you'll probably end up feeding more like 10% of the pup's weight/or 4% of expected adult weigh at the start and then decreasing as the pup grows. There's no exact % because every dog is different - you'll have to watch the pup and increase or decrease as needed as he has growth spurts - a pup will look fine one day then like a skeleton the next as they grow! My retriever pup is 10 months now and gets around 1kg a day - 8 duck necks and either good quality wet food (we use Rocco junior from zooplus or NatureDiet) or a mince from one of the dog meat suppliers. I wouldn't be switching protein source after a week and I wouldn't be worried about offal at this stage either tbh - give the pup a few weeks to get used to one meat and then you can try different things. I didn't give my pup anything with a bone in until she was 4 or 5 months old. Now I've seen videos on youtube of 6 week old pups eating chicken quarters etc but I felt more comfortable feeding her minced chicken/duck/beef for the first few months especially when she was teething and loosing teeth. I have a mincer so easy enough for me to mince things but you could maybe go for chicken wings and slice them up nice and small to be safe or just buy some mince from on of the dog meat suppliers eg dogsfirst/Slaney/dogfooddirect. If you're in/near Dublin the IKC dog expo is on in Cloughran today so you might get a bargain from Slaney or DogsFirst - I don't know if DF will be there but Slaney will be. Also if your pup has his vaccinations it'd be great for socialisation for him

Well, unfortunately I've given him the drumstick before I read your post as I felt guilty of fasting him a bit. LOL. Well he looks okay. He's sniffing a lot right now and I think he wants more. Not sure id because of the fast or the nice drumstick . He's also still licking the floor where he ate. Lol. I think he liked it big smiles so far

DBB

I did not realise he's so young! Yes, as tk says he'll need substantially more than 2% of body weight per day. My own feeling, and it's only a feeling, is that pups should be fed to satiation until they're about 5-6 months old, within reason.
What breed or type is your pup?
Go easy on the bones.... Seriously. Two on his first day is too much imo, and drumsticks are a lot of work for a puppy... In fact I'd say that tiny puppy teeth are just not capable of breaking bones up enough just yet.. I'd be inclined to smash the bones up a bit with a mallet, or depending on his size, I'd start off with wing tips and the cartilagenous triangle on the breastbone at first.
I also feel that we haven't enough really thorough research into raw feeding, particularly for pups, so personally, I think feeding raw alone to a pup is not wise. I'd be inclined to go with what tk is doing, and use a commercially prepared high-quality wet food, supplemented by raw. At least you know your pup is getting some balance to the diet, and you're less likely to be missing out on something vital.

LeakingLava

DBB wrote: »

I did not realise he's so young! Yes, as tk says he'll need substantially more than 2% of body weight per day. My own feeling, and it's only a feeling, is that pups should be fed to satiation until they're about 5-6 months old, within reason.
What breed or type is your pup?
Go easy on the bones.... Seriously. Two on his first day is too much imo, and drumsticks are a lot of work for a puppy... In fact I'd say that tiny puppy teeth are just not capable of breaking bones up enough just yet.. I'd be inclined to smash the bones up a bit with a mallet, or depending on his size, I'd start off with wing tips and the cartilagenous triangle on the breastbone at first.
I also feel that we haven't enough really thorough research into raw feeding, particularly for pups, so personally, I think feeding raw alone to a pup is not wise. I'd be inclined to go with what tk is doing, and use a commercially prepared high-quality wet food, supplemented by raw. At least you know your pup is getting some balance to the diet, and you're less likely to be missing out on something vital.

Thanks a lot. I felt that it was okay earlier but just to make sure, I'll get wings for him later this evening and take out the bones and leave the tip as you suggested. My worry about the tip though is, would he not be tempted to swallow the tip whole as he is a bit big. When I gave him the stick, he put the whole drumstick in his mouth and he was trying to bite it whole. No idea why, maybe just because it's new to him. But anyway, yeah, it might be a bit to small for him to chew. What do you think?

He's a half collie as the vet said and we were told that he was a half terrier. Here's a pic.

LeakingLava

He's very lively. Before, after he eats, if I sat down in front of the computer or in the TV room, he would lie down and sleep. Now he doesn't want to and he's sniffing everything like we just moved in and he's exploring everything. I've seen one very small poop compared to his previous poop and it seems to be okay. It's the usual firmness so I'm very happy with that. I've decided to just give him the meat from the drumsticks and not even any bones for this evening.

Feeling great about the whole thing

LeakingLava

Hi everyone. Second day

Just noticed that he is quite a lot more hyper than before the switch. Might be because he's actually getting the food that his body wants, right? Not really nervous about this, was just wondering. Surely that's a good thing

Also noticed that he has his mouth opemln almost all the time as if he's panting for air evem though he had sat down for a few minutes. Is this normal?

The only downside of all this now is that I get more scratches as he always tries to climb on me, play with me, bite my arms, etc.

I STILL LOVE HIM TO BITS THOUGH

LeakingLava

Hey.

He's very tired from playing with another dog we know. On the way home, my dad and I passed by a friend's house. I stayed in the car with Theo and I was trying to teach him to do 'paw'. I touched his hand and put my hand out waiting for him to put his hand onto mine. He's so tired that he put his head onto my hand and tried to be comfy and sleep. It was hilarious.

I feel so guilty for feeding him such a small amount so I'll be giving him some carrots and potatoes tomorrow along with his chicken. Now I know why he's always looking around and sniffing everything. He's always looking for more food. :P

Good night everyone

LeakingLava

Hey everyone. Just noticed stuff today.

One. He drank three times as much as he did yesterday. And as I've posted, he was playing with another dog for the whole afternoon yesterday and he only drank when we got home and only a small amount.

Two. He STRUGGLED with his poop business. He was trying to go for it for about 2 minutes, turning round after one 'stack' and all that. His poop took shape on the ground but very close to liquid. There was a lot too. I could understand the quantity slightly as he didn't poop yet since yesterday morning and he ate three meals since then. But I'm just wondering, is that normal? Not doing his business for almost a day?

Three. He is getting a bit thinner. I think I need to feed him more. I'm going to buy more chicken tomorrow, what part should I get? I know wings are a good idea but is the wing tip enough for the 10% bones calculation? Or should I give the wings with the bones?

tk123

The poo could just be the change in his diet. For him being skinny - this is just normal puppy growth - they're fine one day and skinny the next so you increase their food. However, if you give a dog too much bone they can get impacted and for the amount of wings or drumsticks you'll need to feed a pup I'd be very cautions here that you don't run before you can walk. It takes time for a dog to build up the enzymes they need to break down bones - if your dog is already having loose poos there's a chance that he could pass undigested fragments of bone and do damage to himself. You also have a pup who's teething or will be teething soon - for this reason I'd hold off on feeding too much bone. DogsFirst are doing 5kg bags of duck or chicken mince for €10 which would be a safer option - compare to the €2-3 you're paying per kg for drumsticks.

LeakingLava

tk123 wrote: »

The poo could just be the change in his diet. For him being skinny - this is just normal puppy growth - they're fine one day and skinny the next so you increase their food. However, if you give a dog too much bone they can get impacted and for the amount of wings or drumsticks you'll need to feed a pup I'd be very cautions here that you don't run before you can walk. It takes time for a dog to build up the enzymes they need to break down bones - if your dog is already having loose poos there's a chance that he could pass undigested fragments of bone and do damage to himself. You also have a pup who's teething or will be teething soon - for this reason I'd hold off on feeding too much bone. DogsFirst are doing 5kg bags of duck or chicken mince for €10 which would be a safer option - compare to the €2-3 you're paying per kg for drumsticks.

Thanks a lot. I was already thinking of buying the bulk option from dog food direct. How are they? What's the difference between the three 40lbs €54.95 options? I really don't see difference.

http://www.dogfooddirect.ie/modules/shop/cats/raw-dog-food/

tk123

I got some bags off them and had no problems - everything was fresh and the dogs loved it but a couple of people here ordered stuff from them and weren't happy with the freshness. I collected mine btw so not sure if that makes a difference. I think 2 of the listings on the website are the same? One is a mixed box made up by them and the 2 others look the same - you tell them what you want. You can buy it in smaller quantites too. Just a word of warning - everything will have a slight tripe smell (tripe stinks!).

LeakingLava

tk123 wrote: »

I got some bags off them and had no problems - everything was fresh and the dogs loved it but a couple of people here ordered stuff from them and weren't happy with the freshness. I collected mine btw so not sure if that makes a difference. I think 2 of the listings on the website are the same? One is a mixed box made up by them and the 2 others look the same - you tell them what you want. You can buy it in smaller quantites too. Just a word of warning - everything will have a slight tripe smell (tripe stinks!).

Being from the Philippines, I've encountered tripe a lot when cooking so I should be ok :P I'm prepared :P

How's their customer service? I wouldn't mind trying it as I could always let them know that it isn't quite fresh and surely they could do something about it right? Could people still collect from them today?

Recommendations of how many bags of what?

"You can choose from chicken, beef, tripe, lamb, venison, heart and fish."

tk123

They're in ParkWest - if you call them they'll be able to give your directions. The fish smells worse than the tripe so I'd avoid it BTW it's green tripe - not bleached tripe that you'd cook with so be prepared for a smell I just got 2 bags of each to try when I got it.

LeakingLava

tk123 wrote: »

They're in ParkWest - if you call them they'll be able to give your directions. The fish smells worse than the tripe so I'd avoid it BTW it's green tripe - not bleached tripe that you'd cook with so be prepared for a smell I just got 2 bags of each to try when I got it.

Ah I should be alright. If I can't take green tripe smell, I don't deserve my dog.

I'll call them and ask how much bags are when not buying bulk. I'll buy 2 bags just like you did to try them out and decide what to buy in bulk. Maybe I'll buy more chicken to cater for my dog's adjustment period.

Thanks a lot for your help man. I really appreciate it.

EDIT: Just got off the phone. The guy said he's going to drop over 6 lbs(2 beef, 2 fish, 2 lamb) for a tenner so immediately said yes just to try out quality. I'll just buy a bit more chicken from tesco or somethin.

LeakingLava

Well that was fast. The samples already arrived and even gave a packet of kibble for free. I thought the 1lbs packs would be a bit bigger. Don't know why I thought that. Anyway, it seems small to me considering it's going to be 55euro for 40 of these. What do you guys think about the price considering variety? Fish, lamb and beef are in there after all. And already premade to 80 10 10 meat bone and offal. Any suggestions?

Just looked at slaney website and it seems like it would work out almost the same if I bought from slaney except there would only be 2 variations as they sell at 15/20lbs. Seems like the bulk sale at DFD isn't really any cheaper if I bought at lower quantities.

LeakingLava

His poops got better. They're back to the same firmness as the first day. He also pooped twice today. He reduced his water intake a bit too. Seems to be okay. Don't know if I should try to switch protein source or still stick with chicken. I have a few pounds of the samples so should I try to?

LeakingLava

He pooped a lot of bad liquid ones .

I'm not gonna be changing protein any time soon I guess.

LeakingLava

He still does the same bad poops.. been a week now. Still anxiously waiting for the better 'discharge'. I've even fed him less bones. Only giving him the white bit off chicken breast, the very end of drumsticks/thighs. Not much difference.

snoman

LeakingLava wrote: »

He still does the same bad poops.. been a week now. Still anxiously waiting for the better 'discharge'. I've even fed him less bones. Only giving him the white bit off chicken breast, the very end of drumsticks/thighs. Not much difference.

I wonder if you'd be better off posting here http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056750085/1/#post80681796
There are probably more people following this thread.

LeakingLava

snoman wrote: »

I wonder if you'd be better off posting here http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056750085/1/#post80681796
There are probably more people following this thread.

I actually follow that thread myself. It's just that I don't want to spam it with my personal stuff so I wanted to stick to my thread and just allow anyone who's interested, to post on mine. Thanks for the suggestion though.

DBB

Is it only chicken you've tried your pup on since starting raw?

LeakingLava

DBB wrote: »

Is it only chicken you've tried your pup on since starting raw?

Yeah. The samples are still in the freezer as I didn't want to switch when I saw the bad poop.

Oh and also some rice for a day(maybe 2 days ago?) but I stopped instantly when I saw the bad poop and until today, poop hasn't changed.

DBB

Whatever it is, something's not working for your pup, and what's happening now simply can't continue.
The change to raw can be hard for some dogs, one of the reasons I issued caution earlier in this thread about feeding an entirely raw diet to a pup. Some dogs needs a long, slow transition, with the meat cooked before attempting fully raw... Switching to raw makes some pretty huge demands on the gut and gut microflora, again for me another mitigating factor for not feeding a young pup a raw diet from scratch.
You need to investigate if chicken itself is a problem, specifically raw chicken. Were I you, I would be switching pup back onto the dry food you were using, then very, very gradually start adding some chunks of cooked chicken, and see how you go with this. After a few days, I'd switch to some cooked, some raw chunks of chicken.
If this goes okay, then start to phase down the dry food. If your pup gets runny again when you add chicken, then you'll know that chicken is a problem, and you'll need gradually (and I mean gradually) change to a different protein source.