Science or TP

Mico96

Leaving cert student here, currently mulling over CAO choices.
Physics is the only subject I've ever found a passion for, the only subject which has made me want to go beyond what I'm taught in school. This has led me to consider both Theoretical Physics and doing physics through Science. If I was to choose the latter, would my physics education be inferior to what it could have been in TP? Also, would I be helped or hindered by doing more of a subject like chemistry (mildly interesting IMO)? They are the only specific questions I can think of, but any info on the pros and cons of both courses would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

bscm

By choosing TP, you'd do a whole lot less Physics than those in General Science. Students doing TP and General Science share Physics modules, but in TP you do roughly 1/4 Physics and 3/4 Maths for the first two years. Whereas in General Science, it's 1/3 Physics. When you get into 3rd year (the year you specialise in General Science), you'd be doing 100% Physics in the General Science course, but still only 1/2 Physics and 1/2 Maths in TP.

With the General Science course, a lot of people found taking subjects like Chemistry helped out with some Physics modules (and vice versa).

Essentially, TP is Maths with Physics for two years, and then an even mixture for the final two years (also a large number of students end up transferring into Maths throughout the duration of the course, very few make it all the way from first to fourth year in TP). General Science is a mixture of Physics, Maths and some other modules for two years, and then pure Physics for the last two.

Mr Pseudonym

bscm wrote: »

By choosing TP, you'd do a whole lot less Physics than those in General Science. Students doing TP and General Science share Physics modules, but in TP you do roughly 1/4 Physics and 3/4 Maths for the first two years. Whereas in General Science, it's 1/3 Physics. When you get into 3rd year (the year you specialise in General Science), you'd be doing 100% Physics in the General Science course, but still only 1/2 Physics and 1/2 Maths in TP.

With the General Science course, a lot of people found taking subjects like Chemistry helped out with some Physics modules (and vice versa).

Essentially, TP is Maths with Physics for two years, and then an even mixture for the final two years (also a large number of students end up transferring into Maths throughout the duration of the course, very few make it all the way from first to fourth year in TP). General Science is a mixture of Physics, Maths and some other modules for two years, and then pure Physics for the last two.

I won't explain the above misunderstanding regarding proportions, but I can confirm that the compulsory Physics department modules studied in first and second years are the same, and that TPs study other Physics modules through the Maths department.

Theoretical Physics is unquestionably the superior degree, and the one with the widest choice: after second year, it is possible to continue for a degree in TPhys, or transfer to either of the Natural Science Physics majors or to Maths.

I can't disprove what bcsm said about high discontinuation-rate, but I've never heard that that is the case.

stealinhorses

If you only have a passion for physics, I wouldn't bother doing science, as for the first two years you will have to do chemistry/biology/geology along with physics, whereas in TP you will learn advanced maths that will only help you with your understanding of physics.

Tears in Rain

bscm wrote: »

By choosing TP, you'd do a whole lot less Physics than those in General Science [...] When you get into 3rd year (the year you specialise in General Science), you'd be doing 100% Physics in the General Science course, but still only 1/2 Physics and 1/2 Maths in TP.

This is 100% nonsense.

In third year TP, half the courses are taught by the School of Physics and half the courses are taught by the School of Mathematics.

The courses taught by the School of Mathematics to TPs in 3rd year are six 5 credit modules entitled Classical Field Theory, Classical Electrodynamics, Statistical Mechanics I and II, and Quantum Mechanics I and II. If it wasn't obvious from the module titles, all of these are physics courses, and all of them are taught by theoretical physicists (a cohort which makes up a substantial proportion of the school), and it is a deceit to suggest that TP's only do half as much physics in 3rd year as General Science students.

bscm

Mr Pseudonym wrote: »

I won't explain the above misunderstanding regarding proportions, but I can confirm that the compulsory Physics department modules studied in first and second years are the same, and that TPs study other Physics modules through the Maths department.

Theoretical Physics is unquestionably the superior degree, and the one with the widest choice: after second year, it is possible to continue for a degree in TPhys, or transfer to either of the Natural Science Physics majors or to Maths.

I can't disprove what bcsm said about high discontinuation-rate, but I've never heard that that is the case.

TPs can't transfer into Astrophysics, only Experimental Physics, due to the competition for places within General Science. I won't question the prestige of TP, but it is a largely mathematical course for the Freshman years. A large number of TPs in my year transferred into Maths (some failed, others are in Experimental Physics).

With regards the proportions, I do consider a lot of the "Physics" from the Maths department to be "Maths", especially in the way in which it is taught to TPs (Mathematical Equations, Relativity and Mechanics are prime examples of this).

Tears in Rain

bscm wrote: »

TPs can't transfer into Astrophysics, only Experimental Physics, due to the competition for places within General Science. I won't question the prestige of TP, but it is a largely mathematical course for the Freshman years. A large number of TPs in my year transferred into Maths (some failed, others are in Experimental Physics).

With regards the proportions, I do consider a lot of the "Physics" from the Maths department to be "Maths", especially in the way in which it is taught to TPs (Mathematical Equations, Relativity and Mechanics are prime examples of this).

Amazing. So you don't think TP's do as much physics as experimental physics students, and to back your claim up you present a definition of physics that puts classical mechanics in the "Maths" box rather than the "Physics" box? That's one of the most amazingly retarded things I've ever read, but by all means continue with your argument, it's kinda amusing to watch you dig yourself into a deeper hole

Mr Pseudonym

I wouldn't put it as harshly as Tears in Rain, but I think bcsm is wrong to suggest that the mathematics of TP is unrelated to Physics (I'm uncomfortable with the two subjects being presented as distinct, as well). It's true that TP is less experimental than the two Physics majors (though it still combines several modules from both), but it covers theoretical topics like General Relativity that would be standard on good Physics degrees in the UK. Clarification required on this, but I think one potential disadvantage is that the fourth year research project is less extensive in TP than NS.

Mico96

Thanks for all the replys.
TP sounds the more appealing based on what people have been saying here and other reading I have done.

Tweej

In TP you'll be doing a lot more maths which -will- help in Physics. Your mechanics (Applied maths) will be much more rigorous and complete, you'll have a lot more understanding of vector calculus, and you'll still have all of the physics which general science does (apart from a few differences, such as doing special relativity in first semester of first year as opposed to 2nd semester of 2nd year, and you'll do maxwell's equations rather than current electricity).

That being said, TP is a harder course, with the maths taking up most of your time. It's a brilliant course, but you have to work to keep up.

If you find that you want to do experimental physics, doing TP up until the end of 2nd year, then moving into 3rd year experimental physics is a perfectly viable option, and you'll find your level of maths is higher than those who went through GS

Tears in Rain

Tweej wrote: »

In TP you'll be doing a lot more maths which -will- help in Physics. Your mechanics (Applied maths) will be much more rigorous and complete, you'll have a lot more understanding of vector calculus, and you'll still have all of the physics which general science does (apart from a few differences, such as doing special relativity in first semester of first year as opposed to 2nd semester of 2nd year, and you'll do maxwell's equations rather than current electricity).

Unfortunately, I'd say not doing current electricity is a bit of a glaring gap on the TP curriculum.

stealinhorses

Tears in Rain wrote: »

Unfortunately, I'd say not doing current electricity is a bit of a glaring gap on the TP curriculum.

I wouldn't worry about it, it's a glaring gap in the minds of people who took the course anyway

Evan93

Mico96 wrote: »

Leaving cert student here, currently mulling over CAO choices.
Physics is the only subject I've ever found a passion for, the only subject which has made me want to go beyond what I'm taught in school. This has led me to consider both Theoretical Physics and doing physics through Science. If I was to choose the latter, would my physics education be inferior to what it could have been in TP? Also, would I be helped or hindered by doing more of a subject like chemistry (mildly interesting IMO)? They are the only specific questions I can think of, but any info on the pros and cons of both courses would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Hey OP, currently in third year TP and being completely biased I'm obviously going to recommend it. If you decide to study physics by entering through general science you'll have to wait until third year until you actually specialise in what you wish to do (be it Astro or Experimental, say) so for the first 2 years you have to do some extra module, geology or chemistry probably along with Physics and Maths. (Though you definitely won't be hindered by doing Chemistry, it pops up a good bit!)

When you say would your physics education be inferior if you didn't study TP then it really depends on what physics you like. In general, I think TP's get a bit more exposure because we are taking Physics modules in Physics and Physics modules in Maths for 4 years (with a few 'pure' maths modules). Though you won't get as technical as Astro's when it comes to Astrophysics say.

The quality of courses such as Quantum Mechanics are of a higher standard, this isn't me being lofty it's just the school of physics have an unreal obsession with Powerpoint which often times mean things are rushed through and some important topics aren't really touched past a superficial level.

Also the comment that you get a whole lot less Physics than the people in general science, I can't agree with this, even setting my bias aside. As well as the notions that people often transfer to Maths. Whether this has been true in the past don't know, it is certainly not the case with the current third and fourth years!

Undeadfred

If you do TP, you're gonna have to really like maths. Like really really really really like it. TP's often see themselves more as maths students than physics students and the majority of students that transfer end up transferring to maths.
Its tough enough too.

EuropeanSon

TP is more prestigious and has essentially no disadvantages and many advantages versus Science if you want to be a physicist, from what I understand. It's also much more difficult though, and you've got to be able for the maths. Your call.

Tears in Rain

EuropeanSon wrote: »

TP is more prestigious [...] It's also much more difficult though, and you've got to be able for the maths. Your call.

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with you there. Calling the TP degree more prestigious is the sort of thing that gets us TP students labelled obnoxious (yeah, I know you're not TP), and I don't think it's necessarily true. TP is undoubtedly hard, but the various physics streams are hard too, in a different way.

EuropeanSon

Tears in Rain wrote: »

Not sure I'd necessarily agree with you there. Calling the TP degree more prestigious is the sort of thing that gets us TP students labelled obnoxious (yeah, I know you're not TP), and I don't think it's necessarily true. TP is undoubtedly hard, but the various physics streams are hard too, in a different way.

Maybe. Nobody drops into TP from physics because they can't handle the science, though.

I'd also concede that TP is harder than (in particular, much more work than) maths, for the record.