Ancient copper mines in Ireland

dublinviking

Hi all

I am trying to identify as many neolithic copper mines in Ireland as possible. I am particularly interested in the Irish names of the places where the mines are located. Links to any documents that talk about early mining in Ireland would be great.

Let's start with Ross Island. Does anyone know what the actual location is called in Irish? What is it known to the local population as.

Thanks in advance.

pueblo

Try this for starters...

W. O’Brien 2011. Prehistoric copper mining and metallurgical expertise in Ireland.

http://bearaschildren.blogspot.ie/2013/08/metallurgy-in-ireland.html

and this from Jstor on the ancient copper mine at Mt. Gabriel in West Cork ...

The Age of Primitive Copper Mines on Mount Gabriel in West Cork

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30001581?uid=3738232&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103736759643

robp

dublinviking wrote: »

Hi all

I am trying to identify as many neolithic copper mines in Ireland as possible. I am particularly interested in the Irish names of the places where the mines are located. Links to any documents that talk about early mining in Ireland would be great.

Let's start with Ross Island. Does anyone know what the actual location is called in Irish? What is it known to the local population as.

Thanks in advance.

Oileán an Rois maybe? I am not sure if the mine was locally known about before excavation. I am sure the situation is described in O'Brien's work. I think many mines were called Dane's mines in reference to the Vikings. Its very common for old sites to be attributed to the Dane's.

There may have been prehistoric mines in Waterford around the cooper coast but its unclear.

Gently does it Bacchus

dublinviking wrote: »

Hi all

I am trying to identify as many neolithic copper mines in Ireland as possible. I am particularly interested in the Irish names of the places where the mines are located. Links to any documents that talk about early mining in Ireland would be great.

Let's start with Ross Island. Does anyone know what the actual location is called in Irish? What is it known to the local population as.

Thanks in advance.

I'm guessing here,but Ross Island may be called Inis Ros 'as gaeilge'.
The word 'ros' has several meanings including 'wooded headland' and 'promontory'.You can see where it juts out into Loch Léin,which is most likely how it derived its name.

I was just reading an article relating to the history of Kerry where it mentions the copper mines on Ross island and 'as gaeilge' it is called 'An Rosa'.

Fries-With-That

pueblo wrote: »

Try this for starters...

W. O’Brien 2011. Prehistoric copper mining and metallurgical expertise in Ireland.

http://bearaschildren.blogspot.ie/2013/08/metallurgy-in-ireland.html

and this from Jstor on the ancient copper mine at Mt. Gabriel in West Cork ...

The Age of Primitive Copper Mines on Mount Gabriel in West Cork

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/30001581?uid=3738232&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=21103736759643

Thanks for these links, I was looking for information like this too.

dublinviking

Local historians argue that the placename comes from the Irish Ros Cré meaning "wood of Cré"; Cré being a historic female name. However, those specialising in the Irish language[citation needed] and its literature would argue that this is too narrow an interpretation and is inaccurate. The Irish name for the town, as agreed by An Brainse Logainmníochta (the State body for verifying Irish placenames) is indeed Ros Cré. Ros is an ambiguous word in the Irish language which can mean either "a wood" or "a promontory". It is regarded by local historians that the latter would be inaccurate given that promontories or, more accurately, promontory forts, are associated with coastal locations such as Dún Aonghusa. However, when we take the literal and most common meaning for of the word "cré" it allows us to explore a possible alternative to the meaning of the word. In his authoritative dictionary Dinneen defines the word "cré" as "earth, clay, dust". So there are several meanings we could attribute to the name "Ros Cré". "Wood of Cré" or "Promontory of Cré", both with Cré as the ancient girls name, or alternatively "An Earthen Wood" or "An Earthen Promontory" both with Cré as earthen or clay. Given how uncommon the ancient name Cré was, based on the balance of probabilities it is likely that the true meaning really is "An Earthen Promontory". The balance of probabilities[original research?] further leans towards this meaning when we consider that historically the town of Roscrea originally developed on an island called Móin na hInse, which is located just outside the modern day town. This would have provided for the use of a promontory fort in a similar way to their usage in coastal areas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roscrea

Clay and Copper have similar colors.

slowburner

dublinviking wrote: »

Hi all

I am trying to identify as many neolithic copper mines in Ireland as possible. I am particularly interested in the Irish names of the places where the mines are located. Links to any documents that talk about early mining in Ireland would be great.

Let's start with Ross Island. Does anyone know what the actual location is called in Irish? What is it known to the local population as.

Thanks in advance.

There are no Neolithic copper mines in Ireland - by definition they are Bronze Age!

Joyce has this to say in relation to Ross Island:
'The word ros signifies, first, a promontory or peninsula; secondly, a wood; and it has other significations which need not be noticed here. Colgan translates it nemus* in Act. SS., p. 791 b. n. 15; and in Tr. Th., p. 383, a n. 17, it is rendered peninsula.
Yet there are many instances of the application of this term to a peninsula in the south, showing that it was formerly so understood there. A well known example is Ross castle on the lower lake of Killarney, so called from the little ros or point on which it was built. Between the middle and lower lakes is the peninsula of Muckross, so celebrated for the beauty of its scenery, and for its abbey; it Irish name is Muc-ros, the peninsula of the pigs; which is also the name of a precipitous headland near Killeybegs in Donegal, and of several other places...
...While it is often difficult to know which of the two meanings we should assign to ros, the nature of the place not unfrequently determines the matter.'
*grove/glade

Ancient Copper mines may have existed in Bonmahon, Co.Waterford, Avoca, Co. Wicklow and Lusk, Co.Dublin but modern mining has probably obliterated any remains. The possibility that ancient mining may have taken place at these sites is based on refrences in the 19th c literature to either 'Dane's works' or 'Old Men's Workings'.
So far as we know, the only confirmed BA mine sites are Mount Gabriel and Ross Island Co.Kerry and Allihies and Derrycarhoon, Co.Cork.
It might be worth bearing in mind that the placenames may have changed over time.
Prof. Billy O'Brien UCC is the authority on BA mining.

dublinviking

'Dane's works' or 'Old Men's Workings' seems to suggest foreigners, non natives being the miners. It is possible that the local lore has preserved this from the time of the first miners in Ireland.

Do you remember this from Vinca thread:

kov(ina) - metal
kovati - to forge to perform metal work
kovacnica, kovnica - forge, smithy, farriery, stithy
kovanica - something forcefully stack together like being forged
kovach - smith

and then we have these European words painfully stack together probably to give Indo European pedigree to the Irish word Gobann - smith

In Gobán Saor can be seen elements of Goibniu, the Old Irish god of smithcraft.[1] His name can be compared with the Old Irish gobae ~ gobann ‘smith,’ Middle Welsh gof ~ gofein ‘smith,’ Gallic gobedbi ‘with the smiths,’ Latin faber ‘smith’ and with the Lithuanian gabija ‘sacred home fire’ and Lithuanian gabus ‘gifted, clever’.

So Gobann is actually Kovan or Kovach, a foreigner who was gifted and clever, who worked with sacred fire, who new the secret of smelting and making metal weapons and who became deified as Goibniu or Kov nu the smith god.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85059096&postcount=72

In Serbian there are actually three words that describe red hair: rus, ridj, rud.

Serbian expression "ruse kose" means red, orange hair. Like this:



Native copper, probably what original copper miners looked for.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper

See any similarities?

If first copper miners were Vincans, then they probably named the metal themselves. And the name was probably carried around the world with them when they decided to go looking for more easily extractable copper.

Red clay



Red clay pot

From Middle English clay, cley, from Old English clǣġ (“clay”), from Proto-Germanic *klajjaz (“clay”), from Proto-Indo-European *gley- (“to glue, paste, stick together”).[1] Cognate with Dutch klei (“clay”), Low German klei (“clay”), German Klei, Danish klæg (“clay”); compare Ancient Greek γλία (glía), Latin glūs (“glue”), Ukrainian ґлей (glej, “clay”). Related also to clag, clog.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/clay

Serbian words:

glina - clay
glib - mud, wet soil, marsh
glibak - muddy, marshy place
glibosan - dirty, lazy
gliv - wet
glivak, glivac - wet thing
glista - earth worm
klizav - slippery


There is more but enough food for thought. Was ros originally word for color, rather peninsula or wood. And the meaning was lost as time passed and population changed?

slowburner

dublinviking wrote: »

'Dane's works' or 'Old Men's Workings' seems to suggest foreigners, non natives being the miners. It is possible that the local lore has preserved this from the time of the first miners in Ireland.

It's possible but not probable. The terminology is akin to 'the Old Timers' used in the Yukon and elsewhere. It really just refers to mining predecessors from an unknown period.
Commonly enough in Ireland, if earthworks weren't attributed to the Danes, they were attributed to the fairies.

Native copper, probably what original copper miners looked for.

This probably is not what they looked for. It's much more likely that they looked for evidence of malachite or oxidised copper.



The Irish for red is dearg.

slowburner

Please keep this thread on the archaeology of ancient copper mining.
If it goes down the etymological route it will be merged with your other thread.

dublinviking

slowburner this is about archaeology. not digging but archaeology. You do need to interpret your finds don't you?

dublinviking

This document talks about copper smelting technology in Vinca sites:

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2002/0350-02410252027A.pdf

It describes kiln designs and it states that identical design was found throughout the world in primitive copper smelting centers.

Do we have any descriptions of early Irish copper smelting kilns from 3rd millenium bc?

Also the W. O’Brien 2011. "Prehistoric copper mining and metallurgical expertise in Ireland" document clearly states that the metal workers were foreigners, as metal mining and processing technology was not developed in Ireland. Would it not be logical then that the words for metal, metal worker, copper would have been foreign as well?

robp

dublinviking wrote: »

Would it not be logical then that the words for metal, metal worker, copper would have been foreign as well?

yes its very likely IMHO that the words for new technologies like copper and smelting were introduced. yet its unlikely the Irish language goes back this far.

dublinviking

well...

dublinviking

Look at this. The main metallurgical center from early Vinca period, which was not later used as metallurgical center is located in the area known today as pločnik. Ploča means board, ingot, metal slab, like the ones produced using primitive copper smelting technology. The therein around the archaeological site consists of smooth, rolling hills. Nothing there can be associated with board, slab or ingot shape. So this name seem to have survived for 7000 years. Why would Irish language be any different?

Look at Mt. Gabriel? We saw that the name of Goibniu, the Old Irish god of smithcraft, comes from "kove" meaning makes metal and kovina meaning metal in Serbian.

In Serbian "rije" means digs. So Gabriel could have originally been kov rije meaning metal digs which later became gob rije, in the same way kovnu became gobnu...Perfect name for a mountain mining center.

slowburner

...except the original name for Mount Gabriel is Cnoc Osta, or the hill of the encampment.

dublinviking

thanks slowburner. Do you have link to original sources? Do you know when the mountain got the name Mt Gabriel?

Unrelated coincidences do happen. This one is particularly funny one if it is coincidence. Everyone makes mistakes. But lets be sure first.

I found this

Mount Gabriel was an important
source of copper in the Early Bronze
Age, with more than 30 mines
having been found on its southern
slopes, consisting of small tunnels
dug into the mountainside. These
are remarkably well preserved since
they were mostly covered over by
massive bog growth, leaving them
untouched since the miners of the
Early Bronze Age abandoned them
[Daphne Pochin Mould, Discovering
Cork]. The area was excavated in
1985 by William O'Brien, who judges
that the mining was on such a large
scale that it cannot have been
merely for use in Ireland, but rather
that the copper was mainly exported
to Europe. The Irish name of the hill
recorded by Bruno O'Donoghue in
his Parish Histories and Placenames
of West Cork is Cnoc Fhosta, 'hill of
the encampment'

http://www.mountaineering.ie/_files/Paul%20Tempan%20Irish%20Mountain%20Placenames%20-%20Feb%202012.pdf

http://www.kilmichael.org/hisodon.htm

Do we know when was Mt Gabriel used as a name for the first time? Do we have any old source which relates to the Mt Gabriel as Cnoc Fhosta or Cnoc Osta.

I have come across this document once which lists the mountain tops in Ireland with their names as they changed through history. Does anyone know what document that is?

dublinviking

This is one of Mt Gabriel mines.



Serbian word "rije" actually means digs holes, like a mole would do, or a pig digging a root out. It is a perfect description of mining activity.

Again I could be completely wrong here. But it is worth knowing and checking.

dublinviking

Hi slowburner

Mt Gabriel could actually be also an old Irish name. Have a look how Serbian V changes to B in Irish:

Vo - Bo - cow
Van - Ban - white, shiny
Kovan - Gabhan - metal worker
Kov - Gabh - metal

Now have a look at these Irish words. They all come from the ancient root "ri" - to cut with something like a tooth, something sharp and pointy or jagged. But the root ri, ria, ris meaning cut, was only preserved in Serbian. The Irish "Cnoc Osta" is Gaelic name. Babriel could be an old Irish, pre Gaelic name. I would still like to see when the two names are first recorded, but the important thing is that Gabriel actually has the meaning of metal mine, dig, gauge in Irish as well.

críadaire - peasantry.

cré - soil
daire is ending meaning man, person

Peasants dig, cut ground

críadaire = cre + ria + daire = soil + digging, cutting + person

riadaire, in phr. sean-riadaire, a cunning old fellow; also applied to beasts (Con.). Fro ria + daire = cut + person

riaghaim, -adh, v. tr., I tear, rend, lacerate; gibbet, hang, crucify.

riar - administer, manage, distribute. Comes from ri = to cut

riar, g. réir and -rtha, m., act of serving, attending, dividing, partitioning; division, allotment; tá riar a cháis aige, he has as much as he needs (Con.).

frithríar, ríar - subsidy given by the chief to the tenant in return for the tenant`s riara, rents and services

riar - will, division of property from brehon law. from ri - cut.

riara - rent in brehon law. from ri - cut

riaraiste, g. id., m., arrears; r. cíosa, arrears of rent.


aimh- (amh-), neg. pref., un-, in-, dis-, not.
aimríata ( 1 ríata) - unbroken (usu. of oxen, horses)

ríata means broken, cut, chipped, toothed.

from ri + je + to = broken + is + that

rinn, g. -e and reanna, pl. id., f. a point; sharpness; climax, intensity; the top of anything; line (of battle: acies); a promontory, a foreland, a headland; common in topography, as Ring, Co. Waterford, etc.

rinneach, -nighe, a., sharp, pointed, barbed.

riodán, -áin, pl. id., m., a woodworm. See readán. The worm which digs, tunnels, rije through the wood.

riastáil, -ála, f., the act of turning sods in the marking off and preparation of grass-land for
tillage; taking the surface off the furrows in the lazy-bed system of tillage; a severe cutting, a
lacerating

riastáil, -ála, f., the act of turning sods in the marking off and preparation of grass-land for
tillage; taking the surface off the furrows in the lazy-bed system of tillage; a severe cutting, a
lacerating

rianta, p. a., marked out, arranged (of a place). Probably from cutting a furrow, ditch...
rianughadh, -uighthe, m., act of marking (nit.



http://www.ucc.ie/celt/Dinneen1.pdf

riach - cut the surface, graze. Although there is Indo-European reiko-, notch, break (Greek @Ge@'reíkw, tear, Lit raiky/ti, draw a furrow, etc., German reihe, row, English row), yet it seems most probable that riach is a variant of strìoch, q.v.

riasail - tear asunder, riasladh, mangling, tearing asunder: *reik-so-, root reik, notch, break; Greek @Ge@'reíkw, tear? Cf. riastradh riach; and riaghan, a swing.

risteal - a surface plough, used in the Hebrides, drawn by one horse and having a sickle-like coulter, Scottish ristle; from the Norse ristill, ploughshare, from rísta, cut.

http://www.ceantar.org/Dicts/MB2/mb30.html#MB.R

All these words stem from the root "ri" meaning to cut, gauge, dig with something toothed, pointy, sharp. But that root does not exist in Irish. Let's have a look at other European languages:



Old Norse: rísta - <rístr, reist, ristu, ristinn> vb carve, engrave; láta rísta rúnar = have runes carved


But this word has only been preserved in Swedish language:

English: cut, carve, engrave
Danish: skære, snitte, gravere
Icelandic: skera, móta, engrave
Swedish: skära, rista, inrista

In Serbian we have these words:

ri - the root meaning cut, gauge, dig with something toothed, pointy
riz, ris, rez - a cut
riza, risa, reza - a cut line, a gouge
rije, ruje - gauges, makes tunnels
rinati - work with a shovel
rintati - hard work
rizati, risati, rezati - cut, engrave, draw. from riz, rez.
urizati, urezati - chisel. from u + rizati, rezati = in + cut
porez - tax, the cut the state gets
prez, brez, bez - without. from po + rez = after + cut
resto - the rest, what is left. from res + to = cut + that
razrezati - divide. from ras, raz + rezati = spread + cut
rista - harvester, cutter
rištati, ristati - cut wheat, harvest (from ri(že) + šta + ti = cut + what + you)
gristi - bite
riti - chisel, gouge, cut in, gid, burrow with something pointy
rov - trench
rovati - dig, chisel, gouge
korist - gain, from ko + rist = what + cut
ris - magic circle cut in the ground around the magician with a sharp pointy object
rie - cuts, gauges, tunnels
riljati - dig with a spade, cut the souil

Krist - Karst, cut stony landscape

The English word karst was borrowed from German Karst in the late 19th century.[4] The German word came into use before the 19th century.[5] According to the prevalent interpretation, the term is derived from the German name for the Kras region (Italian: Carso), a limestone plateau surrounding the city of Trieste in the northern Adriatic (nowadays, located on the border between Slovenia and Italy, in the 19th century part of the Austrian Littoral).[6] Scholars however disagree on whether the German word (which shows no metathesis) was borrowed from Slovene.[7][8] The Slovene common noun kras was first attested in the 18th century, and the adjective form kraški in the 16th century.[9] As a proper noun, the Slovene form Grast was first attested in 1177,[10] referring to the Karst Plateau—a region in Slovenia partially extending into Italy, where the first research on karst topography was carried out. The Slovene words arose through metathesis from the reconstructed form *korsъ,[9] borrowed from Dalmatian Romance carsus.[10] Ultimately, the word is of Mediterranean origin,[10] believed to derive from some Romanized Illyrian base.[9] It has been suggested that the word may derive from the Proto-Indo-European root karra- 'rock'.[10][11] The name may also be connected to the oronym Kar(u)sádios oros cited by Ptolemy, and perhaps also to Latin Carusardius.[9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karst

The word actually has full root in SerboCroatian: kao + ris + to = like + cut, chisled, gouged + it

slowburner

Hi Dublinviking,
I've had enough, everyone else has had enough.
This thread had merit, if the original subject matter had been adhered to.
It wasn't, despite the warning.
It became a vehicle for a questionable one man crusade that steamrolled obsessively over genuine contributions and criticism.
There are far too many threads open on Boards.ie that indulge your personal crusade.

When you have composed something on your chosen subject - and published it with peer review, feel free to come back and post a link.
Until then, please spare us the clutter.