Scrub Bulls

onyerbikepat · 13-03-2014 11:23am #1

I got to see first hand the damage scrub bulls can do, for the first time this year. I had a weanling last year that had a bad front leg so I kept him until last spring to sell him. He was young enough so I didnt think he could bull anything, especially as he could hardly walk.
Now, I know for certain that he bulled a young heifer as she stopped coming on heat but now I think he bulled a couple of cows aswell. I had planned to get rid of him before the breeding season started, but he ended up around for a couple of weeks of it. Even cows that I had Ai'd, I think he manage to bull. The quality of the calves are way back from the normal AI ones.
I can't understand how anyone would ever run a scrub bull. Rant over.:(

tanko · 13-03-2014 11:53am

I can see why you are not happy but it all depends on the quality of the "bull". Eight years ago I had an exceptional weanling off EPN out of a 3/4 CH 1/4 HE cow off HKI (I think). I used him on an outfarm, his bulls were a bit behind calves out off Ai bulls but I kept 5 heifers off him and they are some of my best cows now. They rear good calves, have loads of milk and are better cows than ones of a couple of so called maternal Ai bulls which produced cows that wouldn't feed a cat. I'm sorry I dint keep him the following year. He killed out a U grade close to 400kgs iirc.

on the river · 13-03-2014 12:04pm

Selective breeding will help in achiving the hybrid of the ultimate super scrub bull .

Maybe you start with a pedigree cow and select carefully for your dream bull .

I understand how you can be annoyed with the poor calves which will result from the scrub.

Yet the scrub enjoyed himself at your expense.

Is the scrub still on the farm or is he gone ?

onyerbikepat · 13-03-2014 12:15pm

He's well gone now.

on the river · 13-03-2014 12:17pm

onyerbikepat wrote: »

He's well gone now.

why didnt you squeeze him.

are you using anthor scrub or Ai

Also was there a big difference in prices between scrub calves and AI CALVES ?

blue5000 · 13-03-2014 1:46pm

was he a stabiliser pat?:D

tanko · 13-03-2014 1:52pm

blue5000 wrote: »

was he a stabiliser pat?:D

Good one:D:D

Isn't it always the way, a fecker like that will bull all around him and all the stories you hear about bulls that cost thousands firing blanks.

onyerbikepat · 13-03-2014 2:22pm

blue5000 wrote: »

was he a stabiliser pat?:D

Bit of a home-brew alright. Out of one of my own cows and by the AI bull NHL. The quality of the calves is very obvious. I checked the date I sold him so only one or two other cows he could have bulled.

Muckit · 13-03-2014 3:42pm

It's been discussed before and everyone has their own opinion on it be it right or wrong.

My Own opinion is that a well bred animal is a well bred animal be him pb or crossbred. You can have a runt of a crossbred, but you can also have a runt of a pb.

Oul lad would always have run a scrub bull down through the years after the 'trolley bull' service ceased. He was the pick of the bull weanlings from the year before. Once he had his job done he got the burdizzo.

Hard to justify spending big bucks on a pb animal when you have 10 cows or less.

on the river · 13-03-2014 3:45pm

Muckit wrote: »

It's been discussed before and everyone has their own opinion on it be it right or wrong.

My Own opinion is that a well bred animal is a well bred animal be him pb or crossbred. You can have a runt of a crossbred, but you can also have a runt of a pb.

Oul lad would always have run a scrub bull down through the years after the 'trolley bull' service ceased. He was the pick of the bull weanlings from the year before. Once he had his job done he got the burdizzo.

Hard to justify spending big bucks on a pb animal when you have 10 cows or less.

I agree it all depends on breeding and selections. only a few farmers get this right.

Their is alot of poor stock outthere in terms of conformation.

farmers need to put more thought into breeding and select bulls that will suit their cows.

Muckit · 13-03-2014 4:03pm

Op l think you're coming to a very generalised conclusion about scrub bulls.

You basically did the opposite of what my oul lad used do. He kept his best bull, you kept your worst. A bull can be active and functional from 8mths of age so you have to be careful regardless what his pedigree is.

If the bull you kept on was a runt when he came off the cow, nothing was going to change by keeping him on as a bull. You should have got rid and cut your losses or cut him (squeezed) if you wanted to keep him on. He has cost you more now in poor calves than you ever would have lost on him had you got rid. I've found that you are better off to take the hit the first day as it tends to multiple the longer you leave it. Now if only l'd followed my own advice 3 years ago when was trying to sell property.

Bodacious · 15-03-2014 3:33am

Jees I don't know lads on the scrub bulls, I'm 100% AI here .. Bought a cow locally from a elderly man cutting back 680kg E1100 SH x ch 03 cow in calf to a red white head lim (rocky) x HR ...
I dreaded what she'd have.. Calved in march

I thought he wasn't as fancy as the other Ai char calves .. But at least he Is yellow

She and he hit the grass

Couple of days before I sold calves he was as good as any 352kg E945

Cow ended up costing e150 and calving to LGL time up now... We'll see how she does with a AI bull now but that scrub was as fancy as they come.

grassroot1 · 15-03-2014 9:51am

blue5000 wrote: »

was he a stabiliser pat?:D

Don't knock it unless you have tried it.

biddy2013 · 15-03-2014 10:12am

Muckit wrote: »

It's been discussed before and everyone has their own opinion on it be it right or wrong.

My Own opinion is that a well bred animal is a well bred animal be him pb or crossbred. You can have a runt of a crossbred, but you can also have a runt of a pb.

Oul lad would always have run a scrub bull down through the years after the 'trolley bull' service ceased. He was the pick of the bull weanlings from the year before. Once he had his job done he got the burdizzo.

Hard to justify spending big bucks on a pb animal when you have 10 cows or less.

years ago my dad kept 2 limo cross bulls-from fr cows- he let them with the maiden heifers, never ever again cant remember how many sections and deaths we had couldnt wait for the last one to calve. These where the best 2 weanlings he had at the time. Lesson learnt here

blue5000 · 15-03-2014 10:13am

grassroot1 wrote: »

Don't knock it unless you have tried it.

But sure aren't I and every other suckler farmer in the country doing it on the maternal side? Some of my cows have br fresian, angus, hereford and aubrac in them. I'm just not as successful at marketing as the stabiliser cattle company:pac:

onyerbikepat · 15-03-2014 11:20am

Muckit wrote: »

Op l think you're coming to a very generalised conclusion about scrub bulls.

You basically did the opposite of what my oul lad used do. He kept his best bull, you kept your worst.

He wasn't a runt. Just a late calve that hurt his leg. He was the kind of scrub bull, a lot of farmers would let off with their cows.
The worst part for me is, I need to bring through a few hiefrs for replacements and I 'm looking at a few of his heifers and wondering will i or not.

Miname · 15-03-2014 9:06pm

There arent many lads running a scrub bull with their cows nowadays. I know of only one lad at it and lads go mad for his heifers for breeding. Consistency would be the only major issue i could see but if a right scrub bull was picked i cant see it being any problem. Theres 3 pb bulls running here and difference in calves from certain cows can be enormous. i get the impression your just pissed with the outcome from this particularr bull. biddy a limo out of a friesain cow wouldnt exactly be a scrub cross anyone would be looking for, put on friesain cows the calves wouldnt be good enough to milk nor much better than friesain to fatten.

Genghis Cant · 15-03-2014 9:25pm

Miname wrote: »

There arent many lads running a scrub bull with their cows nowadays. I know of only one lad at it and lads go mad for his heifers for breeding. Consistency would be the only major issue i could see but if a right scrub bull was picked i cant see it being any problem.

For me consistency is the big problem. Consistently of quality, calving, colour, just about everything!
I'm like a broken record on this but every year I think about using one of our xbred bulls on a few cows. We'd have AI Lim bulls off PB Charolais cows. There's a smasher there at the min that I'd be tempted to try!
End up sticking to the Charolais though!

grassroot1 · 15-03-2014 9:39pm

What you have Genghis are hybrids, might be ok to use him because he has a beef breeding background. Don't know what colour the calves might be though

Miname · 15-03-2014 9:45pm

Genghis Cant wrote: »

For me consistency is the big problem. Consistently of quality, calving, colour, just about everything!
I'm like a broken record on this but every year I think about using one of our xbred bulls on a few cows. We'd have AI Lim bulls off PB Charolais cows. There's a smasher there at the min that I'd be tempted to try!
End up sticking to the Charolais though!

A pb orange charlaois, youd be mugged for them round here.:D

Genghis Cant · 15-03-2014 9:59pm

Miname wrote: »

A pb orange charlaois, youd be mugged for them round here.:D

When they go out to grass ill take a few pics an put them up in the photos thread. He's a real smasher!

GrandSoftDay · 15-03-2014 10:19pm

Genghis Cant wrote: »

When they go out to grass ill take a few pics an put them up in the photos thread. He's a real smasher!

I dunno would that sort of a cross be as unpredictable. Considering there is only the two breeds involved. How were most breeds formed in the first place but through selective breeding and crossing anyway. If you read any of the breed history's on wiki the all have the same sort of a story.

Genghis Cant · 15-03-2014 11:10pm

GrandSoftDay wrote: »

I dunno would that sort of a cross be as unpredictable. Considering there is only the two breeds involved. How were most breeds formed in the first place but through selective breeding and crossing anyway. If you read any of the breed history's on wiki the all have the same sort of a story.

I'd agree. A pure breed breeds true to type. A xbreed doesnt breed true, cos there are variables.
In my example, the PB Lim X PB Ch wouldn't breed true if ya crossed similar animals. There's every chance the cross would throw up pure white or pure red offspring.......... Even though the dam and sire were Orange.
Having said all this, cross them a few generations and it's likely they'll head toeawds breeding true. Look at INRA, they are not to far removed from what I'd have, just a few generations ahead of me. Personally I'd be slow to call them a breed, but theres no reason why quailty stock couldn't result from a bull like these.

Bodacious · 01-04-2014 1:10am

Bodacious wrote: »

Jees I don't know lads on the scrub bulls, I'm 100% AI here .. Bought a cow locally from a elderly man cutting back 680kg E1100 SH x ch 03 cow in calf to a red white head lim (rocky) x HR ...
I dreaded what she'd have.. Calved in march

I thought he wasn't as fancy as the other Ai char calves .. But at least he Is yellow

She and he hit the grass

Couple of days before I sold calves he was as good as any 352kg E945

Cow ended up costing e150 and calving to LGL time up now... We'll see how she does with a AI bull now but that scrub was as fancy as they come.

she calved down a very good lump of a yellow LGL bull calf again .. will be interesting to see will ai calf beat scrub by much in the back end

Scrub Bulls

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