Question about a phrase?

djman

Hi,

Is the term "butch" homophobic?

As in calling someone a butch lesbian.

Thanks

baby and crumble

djman wrote: »

Hi,

Is the term "butch" homophobic?

As in calling someone a butch lesbian.

Thanks

From my perspective, no. But it all depends on the tone and overarching intent.

I would describe myself as a butch lesbian. Lots of other lesbians also do. However if something were to shout out "f!cking butch dyke" at me- I'd wager that the intent was homophobic yes.

Can I ask why you are asking?

djman

But I would consider "f!cking butch dyke" homophobic too, more so because of the term "dyke" but not Butch Lesbian.

The Story
My friend had an argument with a guy and he said I don't care what you think you butch lesbian. She wants to go to the guards and have him done for slander or whatever she can to **** with him. I think she's totally over reacting and wasting her time. Am i wrong?

Ambersky

Is the term "butch" homophobic?
As in calling someone a butch lesbian.

Calling someone butch is no more homophobic than calling someone lesbian.
It can simply be a matter of fact as baby and crumble has said and the homophobia comes in with the emotion and intent behind the statement or accusation.
I could say someone's a "f*cking hot butch dyke" and I guess the clue there is in the word hot no matter what my tone :P

All words describing lesbians have been used in a derogatory way and the word dyke had its origins as mainly an american insult.
Butch usually describes a woman who is in touch with what some would call her masculine side and that's no insult. Within the LGBT community lots of people explore varying degrees of masculinity and femininity even within the one person and sometimes that expression is seen as going against the social pressures to conform to a particular expression of gender.
This months Diva magazine has an article reviewing a new play called the Butch Monologues.

When I was asked by [Butch Monologues writer] Laura Bridgeman to respond to the Butch Monologues, it was because I was...you know...a professor. We both smiled a knowing smile, a smile that acknowledges the playful ways in which we each perform notions of power - with a wink and a twinkle.
And my first impression of the performance of the Butch Monologues is its wink and twinkle - its play with power and the power of its playfulness. What a relief to laugh and to smile at our attempt to act out our desires. And what a powerful impact of recognition.

http://www.divamag.co.uk/category/arts-entertainment/review-the-butch-monologues.aspx

Butch women have often been the group of lesbians most visible and least able to hide or pass as straight when out and about. Butch women can be easy targets for lesbophobia both from the wider public and unfortunately from individuals within the gay and lesbian community. Women can sometimes disassociate themselves from butch women out of shame, they themselves may be lesbian or gay but they can feel at least they are not butch, at least they look "normal". Looking butch and being butch is normal for butch women.

Dyke was an american expression often being used as an insult for butch lesbians as in the expression, diesel dyke. It has been very much reclaimed by lesbian women and for us now it is an expression of pride. I think of a dyke is a women who is comfortable with her sexuality and with the culture and community of lesbians. There is a bit of a strut to the word dyke.Some dykes are butch and some are not.

Not all lesbians identify as dykes and not all lesbians are butch but both have had and continue to have a strong contribution to the diversity of lesbian culture.

Obviously the guy who insulted your friend was lesbophobic. Im using that expression because we are more use to hearing homophobia and while that expression fits this situation too, Lesbian experience is sometimes a bit different than the experience of gay men.
Im not sure what the guards can or would do in cases of individual lesbophobia/homophobia but I think its great that you are angry about it and that you have a sense of injustice that you want righted.

baby and crumble

djman wrote: »

But I would consider "f!cking butch dyke" homophobic too, more so because of the term "dyke" but not Butch Lesbian.

The Story
My friend had an argument with a guy and he said I don't care what you think you butch lesbian. She wants to go to the guards and have him done for slander or whatever she can to **** with him. I think she's totally over reacting and wasting her time. Am i wrong?

Well the guy sound like an idiot but tbh I do think she'll be wasting her time. Name calling isn't exactly the same as verbal abuse. There's a fine line, but if think in this case, I doubt your friend will get very far. That's not to say that people should be ok with people calling them names, but it's hardly slander. Calling someone a butch lesbian doesn't say anything negative about their character, really. Best thing to do in this case is ignore it. Rise above it. If she is butch, or presenting as such, she will be called names. It's not right, but trust me, it happens an awful lot.

ongarboy

It's like the term queer. It has been embraced by many elements of LGBT commmunity as a term of pride to describe themselves. However, if it is used in a negative context or tone, it's just as derogatory as any other homophobic insult.

I personally don't care for the word as it reminds me of it's original meaning (as any Enid Blyton reader will know) to describe something as unusual or odd.

I would guess that calling a girl butch would be similar to calling a guy camp. Again, the tone and context would be the deciding factor for me if it was offensive.

floggg

djman wrote: »

But I would consider "f!cking butch dyke" homophobic too, more so because of the term "dyke" but not Butch Lesbian.

The Story
My friend had an argument with a guy and he said I don't care what you think you butch lesbian. She wants to go to the guards and have him done for slander or whatever she can to **** with him. I think she's totally over reacting and wasting her time. Am i wrong?

Is she a lesbian?

djman

djman wrote: »

As in calling someone a butch lesbian.

Calling someone a butch lesbian is no more homophobic than calling a black guy an idiot is racist. You are commenting on an individual and your perception of the attributes of that individual.

To be homophobic, racist, biggotted etc in my view you would have to be making the comment about a group as a whole. Such as "All blacks are idiots" "All lesbians are butch".

If you are making a comment about an individual then you are ok - it is when you catch yourself making comments or generalisations about some arbitrary group as a whole that you might want to check yourself - your meanings - and your intentions.

This however....

djman wrote: »

My friend had an argument with a guy and he said I don't care what you think you butch lesbian.

.... is different. He clearly in this situation was using the term "butch Lesbian" as invective. By this usage he was not so much using "butch lesbian" as an insult so much as portraying that being a "butch lesbian" makes you someone worthy of insult or derision.

Therefore it is not so much the words that were used - but the manner and intent of them - that is questionable. It is the same between observing someone is a cockney british person as a fact, and calling someone a "cockney brit" as an insult. Intention and context lend more to our evaluation of the hate speech rather than the words themselves.

Even "******" one of the most hated terms in our language can range from a term of endearment to a hate filled insult depending on who is saying it and why.

Edit: See? The forum seemingly comments out the word I just used as my example. Which sort of makes my point in a way. To clarify I was using the questionable "N" word with which colored folk are often described or often refer to each other.

baby and crumble

As much as I identify with the term, I know there are an awful lot of women in general and lesbians in particular who would find being called butch quite offensive. It boils down to the fact that most people look down on butch women, even within the community.

I mean, even my friends tell me I'm not "really" butch. They mean it as a weird compliment, because butch lesbian = weird/ unpleasant.