Sessions on Treadmill ?

PaulieC

an age old question for sure, but I am trying to figure out a way to make space for more. Either more time with the family or more time for running (or both, not sure yet ). We have a gym in work, just 1 floor below me in fact.
I reckon I could get good value out of doing sessions on a Tuesday and Thursday in the gym, rather than on the streets. I'm thinking of stuff like 10 x 400m or 7 X 3mins at 5k pace or whatever. I really hate the thoughts of using the treadmills, but if I could get in a session like that while others are having their morning coffee or breakfast I think it would be decent enough.
Are there approximate settings to make a treadmill more like road running in terms of effort ?

thejaguar

You might hear some people say to set the incline to 1% - but apparently that's an urban myth (to a certain extent).
http://www.runnersworld.com/treadmills/biomechanics-expert-debunks-treadmill-running-myths

The best thing I'd suggest is to just get up there and do it. If it's the most suitable way for you to get running, then I wouldn't sweat the difference.

Any chance you can get to get outside, take it. And if you can find some way to measure your level of effort at a particular pace (Heart Rate or something like that) - you can compare the treadmill versus outside. That will give you an indication on whether it might be an idea to increase the intensity on the treadmill.

echancrure

Oh no!
Not again !;)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88731595

and many others:D

BeepBeep67

I have a treadmill and used to do sessions on it.
With the exception of some progression runs and steady state runs, I mainly utilise it for early morning recovery runs, particularly in winter when i can just get up and go.
Short sessions are hard to manage unless you can pre-program, there'll be a 'speed up' time on the treadie vs more immediate response on the road/track.

PaulieC

echancrure wrote: »

Oh no!
Not again !;)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=88731595

and many others:D

Sorry!!

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

I have a treadmill and used to do sessions on it.
With the exception of some progression runs and steady state runs, I mainly utilise it for early morning recovery runs, particularly in winter when i can just get up and go.
Short sessions are hard to manage unless you can pre-program, there'll be a 'speed up' time on the treadie vs more immediate response on the road/track.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I've asked the guy in the gym and he said that they are fully programmable.

Actually, you know what ? Forget about it, it's way too nice out to be thinking of a treadmill. (and yes, I am assuming that this weather will last for the entire year)

DogSlySmile

PaulieC wrote: »

. We have a gym in work, just 1 floor below me in fact. ?

Is the gym any use Paulie? Haven't been over that way yet. I'm in building 3 but thinking it could be handy to use that gym instead of heading to Ben dunne cherrywood.

PaulieC

Oh, do we work in the same company ?? It looks ok, I've never been in, but from walking past, it looks well stocked. For €37.50 a year you can't go far wrong.

BeepBeep67

PaulieC wrote: »

Oh, do we work in the same company ?? It looks ok, I've never been in, but from walking past, it looks well stocked. For €37.50 a year you can't go far wrong.

Worth joining just to use the shower!

DogSlySmile

PaulieC wrote: »

Oh, do we work in the same company ?? It looks ok, I've never been in, but from walking past, it looks well stocked. For €37.50 a year you can't go far wrong.

I'm with one of the MS vendors in bld3, think I remember you saying before that you were in bld 1/2. I thought it was a fiver a week but that's even better!

PaulieC

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Worth joining just to use the shower!

showers are free for everyone and even supply towels, which keeps the bag weight down.

T runner

PaulieC wrote: »

an age old question for sure, but I am trying to figure out a way to make space for more. Either more time with the family or more time for running (or both, not sure yet ). We have a gym in work, just 1 floor below me in fact.
I reckon I could get good value out of doing sessions on a Tuesday and Thursday in the gym, rather than on the streets. I'm thinking of stuff like 10 x 400m or 7 X 3mins at 5k pace or whatever. I really hate the thoughts of using the treadmills, but if I could get in a session like that while others are having their morning coffee or breakfast I think it would be decent enough.
Are there approximate settings to make a treadmill more like road running in terms of effort ?

The new Daniels edition has a good section on treadmills as well as equivalent speeds taking into account incline etc.

So if you do 10kph @ 20% incline it will give you a corresponding equivalent speed on the flat.

Treadmill is great for training. Great options.
One session i'm dying to try is a strength endurance one.

Tempo/pace efforts on flat, then hill reps then, Tempo/pace efforts on flat.

echancrure

more like 2.0% not 20%

T runner

echancrure wrote: »

more like 2.0% not 20%

Nope 20%, although most gyms only go to 15%. 1% is equivalent to an outdoor flat run. 2% doesnt serve much purpose as a treadmill hill TBH.

echancrure

T runner wrote: »

So if you do 10kph @ 20% incline it will give you a corresponding equivalent speed on the flat.

Sorry but this makes no sense.

I could not even run at 10kph on a treadmill at 20% incline...
I am not even sure I could walk it.

T runner

echancrure wrote: »

Sorry but this makes no sense.

I could not even run at 10kph on a treadmill at 20% incline...
I am not even sure I could walk it.

If you cant run up it you surely wont be able to walk it.
20% is a slope of 1 in 5. Steep but not that's steep. A stairs is usually 1 in 2.
I wouldn't be able to run at those settings continuously, but I might try 10 x 30s in the middle of a tempo/pace session to build strength endurance

Its just an example anyway.

The point is that the Daniels new edition gives an equivalent pace based on treadmill speed and gradient. So 10kph @ 20% might be equivalent of 2:50 min/km pace. All relevant paces and inclines (0-20%) are in the table.
So there will be an equivalent pace for 8kph @ 4% inc. also.

Tis handy.

plodder

Setting a treadmill to even 15% incline sounds like madness to me. All you're doing is making the angle between your foot and lower leg 15% smaller than it normally is. It might feel harder, but probably only because it's a very awkward angle to run (fast) at. It's certainly nothing like running on a real 15% gradient because you're not actually running up a hill.

DogSlySmile

T runner wrote: »

The point is that the Daniels new edition gives an equivalent pace based on treadmill speed and gradient. So 10kph @ 20% might be equivalent of 2:50 min/km pace. All relevant paces and inclines (0-20%) are in the table.
So there will be an equivalent pace for 8kph @ 4% inc. also.

Tis handy.

Ah grand, I've been doing a few treadie seshs recently at 15% to improve climbing but its good to know that it will also translate to flat speed.

T runner

plodder wrote: »

Setting a treadmill to even 15% incline sounds like madness to me. All you're doing is making the angle between your foot and lower leg 15% smaller than it normally is. It might feel harder, but probably only because it's a very awkward angle to run (fast) at. It's certainly nothing like running on a real 15% gradient because you're not actually running up a hill.

Its quite like running up a 15% gradient. You are lifting youre knee to a similar angle. You are lifting youre body weight to stop your body from travelling down the treadmill. Granted, Because your foot moves on the treadmill you are not pulling your body up over the centre of gravity. But it is still quite similar. I typically did 10 x 2 mins with 1 rest which translated very well to IMRA summer league climbs of 20 mins.

The gravity thing on the threadmill might mean a hill session on it is superior to a real hill for flat running as form is easier to maintain.

DogSlySmile wrote: »

Ah grand, I've been doing a few treadie seshs recently at 15% to improve climbing but its good to know that it will also translate to flat speed.

It will. You need to do some fast stuff on the flat too. If you had a target flat race youd probably do the steep stuff in base training for strenght. As you get closer youd reduce the gradient right down so the running action Is more similar to Flat running.

rom

A tm can be out a lot in reported speed so I use HR for tempo rather than pace. Just something to consider.

plodder

T runner wrote: »

Its quite like running up a 15% gradient. You are lifting youre knee to a similar angle. You are lifting youre body weight to stop your body from travelling down the treadmill. Granted, Because your foot moves on the treadmill you are not pulling your body up over the centre of gravity. But it is still quite similar. I typically did 10 x 2 mins with 1 rest which translated very well to IMRA summer league climbs of 20 mins.

The gravity thing on the threadmill might mean a hill session on it is superior to a real hill for flat running as form is easier to maintain.

It's always surprised me that more people aren't sceptical about it, and frankly I've never seen any articles questioning it. I can accept that study which showed 1% gradient might be equivalent to running on the flat. They measured it and that's what they found presumably. But extrapolating it to higher gradients is a different thing altogether. 15% is a very steep hill, eg the hill of Howth. The energy used running up the hill of Howth would be massively greater than running on a treadmill at 15%.

T runner

plodder wrote: »

It's always surprised me that more people aren't sceptical about it, and frankly I've never seen any articles questioning it. I can accept that study which showed 1% gradient might be equivalent to running on the flat. They measured it and that's what they found presumably. But extrapolating it to higher gradients is a different thing altogether. 15% is a very steep hill, eg the hill of Howth. The energy used running up the hill of Howth would be massively greater than running on a treadmill at 15%.

The difference isn't massive. As Ive pointed out 10 x 2 min sessions @ 15% with 1 min rest has successfully translated to strong 20 min-ish climbs on Trooperstown Hill and on the Sugarloaf. The sugarloaf climb, bar the cone averages about 15%. No extrapolation there. Why would I be sceptical when Ive proven their benefit (to myself) by actually climbing on both and comparing?

rom wrote: »

A tm can be out a lot in reported speed so I use HR for tempo rather than pace. Just something to consider.

A treadmill can be easily calibrated by measuring the belt length, then working out the speed of the belt compared to the speed on the display and calculating the error.

plodder

T runner wrote: »

The difference isn't massive. As Ive pointed out 10 x 2 min sessions @ 15% with 1 min rest has successfully translated to strong 20 min-ish climbs on Trooperstown Hill and on the Sugarloaf. The sugarloaf climb, bar the cone averages about 15%. No extrapolation there. Why would I be sceptical when Ive proven their benefit (to myself) by actually climbing on both and comparing?

That's fair enough, that it has helped you for actual hill running. We can agree to disagree on the benefit generally. But, it just makes me uncomfortable when people look for equivalents out of a treadmill for running on the flat, and the answer is "crank up the gradient on the treadie" I just think that could be a recipe for injury given the artificial situation you are putting yourself in.

rom

T runner wrote: »

A treadmill can be easily calibrated by measuring the belt length, then working out the speed of the belt compared to the speed on the display and calculating the error.

I agree but what gyms do that ?

T runner

rom wrote: »

I agree but what gyms do that ?

I was thinking about a home treadmill, but if you're a member of a gym all you can do is ask. It takes five minutes. If they wont, just ask them to (find out and) tell you the belt length. A sneaky chalk line will enable you to calibrate once you know the belt length.

rom

T runner wrote: »

I was thinking about a home treadmill, but if you're a member of a gym all you can do is ask. It takes five minutes. If they wont, just ask them to (find out and) tell you the belt length. A sneaky chalk line will enable you to calibrate once you know the belt length.

I suppose if you the model of the tm you can just google it? It does mean that you should use the same tm going forward. How often do they generally need calibration ?

echancrure

rom wrote: »

I suppose if you the model of the tm you can just google it? It does mean that you should use the same tm going forward. How often do they generally need calibration ?

Aternatively, just analyse it by feel for yourself.

I fing running 5 miles at 1.5% 12kph on a threamill quite harder than running the same outside on the flat: that's just me, it works for me, so when it's cold outside, or too wet or too windy, that's what i do in the gym. It is not an easy option... in fact for me it is harder than going out. I just find it warmer!

Just find it out for yourself instead of making generalities.

Good luck.

opus

I've been using the hill program on a treadmill to prepare for the Comrades Ultra last year & this year. Nothing complicated, I just run around 20k (depending on how much time I've got) at a steady pace using the random hill program, starting with level 1 and upping it by one each time. Made it to level 12 last year and should get a bit higher this year.

T runner

rom wrote: »

I suppose if you the model of the tm you can just google it? It does mean that you should use the same tm going forward. How often do they generally need calibration ?

Youll need: Measuring tape, marking tape, chalk and stop watch.

The real speed of a treadmill at a particular speed setting, is the distance the belt travels in a time at that setting divided by the time.

To calculate the distance it travels, you'll need to know the length of the belt, and how any time the belt revolves in that time.

To Calculate Belt length.

Put a small piece of tape on the belt or mark it with chalk. Measure from the tape as far as you can along the belt to a certain point. Mark that point. Record distance. Move belt along. Start from new point and repeat. Same again until you reach the original tape mark.

Now you have the length of the belt.

To calculate the distance travelled by the belt:

Leave the original tape on.
Turn the treadmill up to a medium-low speed. (Note the speed on treadmill.)
Start the stop watch as the tape passes you.
Stop the watch as the tape passes for a fiftieth time
Distance = Belt Length X 50

Speed = distance/time

If speed is in Metres per Second x by 1000/3600 to get km/hour

rom

T runner wrote: »

Youll need: Measuring tape, marking tape, chalk and stop watch.

The real speed of a treadmill at a particular speed setting, is the distance the belt travels in a time at that setting divided by the time.

To calculate the distance it travels, you'll need to know the length of the belt, and how any time the belt revolves in that time.

To Calculate Belt length.

Put a small piece of tape on the belt or mark it with chalk. Measure from the tape as far as you can along the belt to a certain point. Mark that point. Record distance. Move belt along. Start from new point and repeat. Same again until you reach the original tape mark.

Now you have the length of the belt.

To calculate the distance travelled by the belt:

Leave the original tape on.
Turn the treadmill up to a medium-low speed. (Note the speed on treadmill.)
Start the stop watch as the tape passes you.
Stop the watch as the tape passes for a fiftieth time
Distance = Belt Length X 50

Speed = distance/time

If speed is in Metres per Second x by 1000/3600 to get km/hour

So if a tm is out 10% at say 10k/h then it will be out 10% at 15k/h also. Just wondering if they need to be calibrated at only one speed or more than that? Wonder how many gyms even bother doing this.