Another lsr question

Finnt

Hi all,
For the last while I've been training for the limerick marathon, the plan I've been following has a long run every second weekend alternating with an 8 mile run every other weekend. The long runs go as far as 17 miles,

I decided to change it a little, so I've scrapped the idea of the 8 mile run and I'm going to keep adding a mile onto the long run every week until I hit 20 miles, 3 weeks before the marathon,
Just wondering is this the right way to go about it?
And after hitting 20 miles what length lsr should I do the next week ?
Thanks

menoscemo

If you are just planning on 'completing' the Marathon then one 20 mile run 3 weeks out should be fine.
If you have any kind of 'competitive' time goal (relative to your own PBs) you really need to be doing more than 1 20+ mile Long run.

ThePiedPiper

Yeah, what meno said. In relation to what to do after your 20 miler, i would say step back the following week to 16-18, before doing another 20 if time allows. What are your goals for the race?

Cona

Assuming your running Limerick you only have 8 weeks to go, i think? What kind of running have you under your belt at this stage?

You will need to build to a 20 mile run slowly to avoid injury. If you can get in two 20 milers then that would be better but might not be advisable if your new to running and a first marathon. Build LSR slowly week by week and keep them at an easy pace. Something along the lines of:

14
16
18
10 (recover week)
19
20
Taper
Taper

* above is based on a general marathon plan. It may not be right for you.

Finnt

I'm aiming for about. 3:35 or so
Last weeks long run was 15miles and 14 the week before.
Should I do something like this?
17
18
19
20
10
20
Taper
Taper

ger664

What are you basing your 3:35 time on ? Have you covered the marathon distance before ?
Still I would be more inclined to not do 4 on the bounce up til 20. Try
17
18
14
20
10
20
12-14 (Taper)
8-10 (Taper)

Finnt

ger664 wrote: »

What are you basing your 3:35 time on ? Have you covered the marathon distance before ?
Still I would be more inclined to not do 4 on the bounce up til 20. Try
17
18
14
20
10
20
12-14 (Taper)
8-10 (Taper)

No it's my first marathon basing 3:35 on my 10k time using the McMillan calculator. That looks better that doing 4 long runs on the way up to 20

ger664

Finnt wrote: »

No it's my first marathon basing 3:35 on my 10k time using the McMillan calculator. That looks better that doing 4 long runs on the way up to 20

McMillan is overestimating your Marathon Time that is of course if your 10K is recent as you will have come on some bit since you started marathon training. A good guide for first timers is 5 times your 10K time and if you are still feeling good you can up the pace @ 20 miles do so by 10-15 secs/mile.

Also I assume you understand that LSR doesn't mean run at Marathon pace. But Marathon pace + 90 sec/mile

Finnt

My last 10k was in December, 45:2x. Do you mean I should be quicker than Macmillan says?

menoscemo

Finnt wrote: »

My last 10k was in December, 45:2x. Do you mean I should be quicker than Macmillan says?

Have you ran a marathon before?
Have you ran a Half (when and what time?)
What is the furthest you have ran in training before this training cycle?
What was your typical weekly mileage beofre marathon training?
How many times per week have you been running in the last few months and typical weekly mileage?

It would be very unusual for a first time marathoner to get anywhere near their McMillan predicted marathon time unless they had a considerable base of running behind them.

This thread should give you an idea of what to expect from your first marathon:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057041858

ger664

Finnt wrote: »

My last 10k was in December, 45:2x. Do you mean I should be quicker than Macmillan says?

No.
From your 10K time you should be in and around 3:45 to 3:50.
Your LSR pace should be 10 to 10:30 min/mile pace.

In saying that I think the goal for your first marathon should be to get around and enjoy the experience, time goal should be really secondary.

Finnt

"]Have you ran a marathon before? No

Have you ran a Half (when and what time?) no had planned on run mount Juliet but it was cancelled

What is the furthest you have ran in training before this training cycle? 14 miles
What was your typical weekly mileage beofre marathon training? 20-25niles

How many times per week have you been running in the last few months and typical weekly mileage?
I'm running 4 times a week usually cover between 30-40 miles aweek

Finnt

ger664 wrote: »

No.
From your 10K time you should be in and around 3:45 to 3:50.
Your LSR pace should be 10 to 10:30 min/mile pace.

In saying that I think the goal for your first marathon should be to get around and enjoy the experience, time goal should be really secondary.

I was thinking you didn't mean faster!!
What would you think of doing a 10k the week between the 2 20milers would it be abit much?

menoscemo

Finnt wrote: »

"]Have you ran a marathon before? No

Have you ran a Half (when and what time?) no had planned on run mount Juliet but it was cancelled

What is the furthest you have ran in training before this training cycle? 14 miles
What was your typical weekly mileage beofre marathon training? 20-25niles

How many times per week have you been running in the last few months and typical weekly mileage?
I'm running 4 times a week usually cover between 30-40 miles aweek

Realistically you don't have enough of a running base to even comtemplate hitting Your Mcmillan predicted marathon time based on your 10k time. McMillan Marathon predicters would be based on someone being fully trained to 'race' the distance (for most people that would be a few years running base of 1000's miles per year and a training programme of at least 70+ miles per week). You aren't. That doesn't mean you can't complete the distance enjoy it or get a relatively decent time (say 3:50 or 4hrs) but if you go out chasing 3:35 you will likely have a very long day at the office and a very bad experience.

Have a look through the thread I posted. If I had based my first marathon target on my 5k or 5mile time I would have been aiming for about 3:25. In reality I went for 4hrs and still blew up finishing in 4:15.

As Ger says I recommend you take your first marathon relatively easy. Pick a conservative goal and try to enjoy it. You will learn a lot and that will allow you to modify your training and choose a more agressive goal in the future.

best of luck.

Finnt

Thanks, it's always good to get an honest opinion from a more experienced runner , even if it's not what ya want to hear!! I understand what you mean about not having the base put in.
In relation to the long run do you think I'd be right yo do?

17
18
14
20
10
20
12-14
8-10 ?

menoscemo

Finnt wrote: »

Thanks, it's always good to get an honest opinion from a more experienced runner , even if it's not what ya want to hear!! I understand what you mean about not having the base put in.
In relation to the long run do you think I'd be right yo do?

17
18
14
20
10
20
12-14
8-10 ?

That looks like a solid long run plan. I'd probably put in a 14 between the 2 x 20 milers but I doubt that would really make much difference.

SamforMayo

I have a question regarding the LSR. Should my LSR for half marathon training be run at the same pace as LSR for marathon training or should it be run a bit faster?

menoscemo

SamforMayo wrote: »

I have a question regarding the LSR. Should my LSR for half marathon training be run at the same pace as LSR for marathon training or should it be run a bit faster?

I'd Imagine about 15-20% slower than your goal HMP. So for a 1:45 target (8 min/mile) between 9:10-9:40 pace?

SamforMayo

menoscemo wrote: »

I'd Imagine about 15-20% slower than your goal HMP. So for a 1:45 target (8 min/mile) between 9:10-9:40 pace?

Thanks Meno, 1.45 will possibly be my target if training continues going well, and running the lsr at between 9.10/9.20 so that seems ok. I intend keeping LSR between 13-16 is that far enough for HM? Its only my 2 nd Half hence all the questions.

donnacha

yikes ... glad I stumbled on this. Just realised I may for once be running my LSR too slow :pac: must have got too conservative after running DCM. On reviewing my recent runs I've been running my LSRs at 25% slower than my goal HMP. I guess I'll need to review this.

One other question on LSRs for HMs - the last one I did was last Sunday. It was a 14mile LSR and for the last 1.5miles I decided I'd pick up the pace to about 10 secs faster than goal HMP. Would you recommend doing this? Should the fast bit be for a longer stretch i.e. do I build on this and increase each week with another 0.5miles of fast running at the end of the LSR? Any advice is appreciated.

SamforMayo

donnacha wrote: »

yikes ... glad I stumbled on this. Just realised I may for once be running my LSR too slow :pac: must have got too conservative after running DCM. On reviewing my recent runs I've been running my LSRs at 25% slower than my goal HMP. I guess I'll need to review this.

One other question on LSRs for HMs - the last one I did was last Sunday. It was a 14mile LSR and for the last 1.5miles I decided I'd pick up the pace to about 10 secs faster than goal HMP. Would you recommend doing this? Should the fast bit be for a longer stretch i.e. do I build on this and increase each week with another 0.5miles of fast running at the end of the LSR? Any advice is appreciated.

Good question which I can not answer:rolleyes: What I have been doing is just keeping my LSR as an LSR but practicing running at HM pace during session eg 2 mile warm up, 4 miles at HM pace , 2 mile cool down. Building this up gradually with the aim of been at 7miles HMP at the end. When is your HM and where?

menoscemo

donnacha wrote: »

yikes ... glad I stumbled on this. Just realised I may for once be running my LSR too slow :pac: must have got too conservative after running DCM. On reviewing my recent runs I've been running my LSRs at 25% slower than my goal HMP. I guess I'll need to review this.

One other question on LSRs for HMs - the last one I did was last Sunday. It was a 14mile LSR and for the last 1.5miles I decided I'd pick up the pace to about 10 secs faster than goal HMP. Would you recommend doing this? Should the fast bit be for a longer stretch i.e. do I build on this and increase each week with another 0.5miles of fast running at the end of the LSR? Any advice is appreciated.

That sounds like a great workout.
I wouldn't worry about doing LSRs too slowly especially if that allows you to put the fast bits at the end of them.

@Sam that sounds fine, but the more 'over distance' LSRs you can do the better

donnacha

SamforMayo wrote: »

Good question which I can not answer:rolleyes: What I have been doing is just keeping my LSR as an LSR but practicing running at HM pace during session eg 2 mile warm up, 4 miles at HM pace , 2 mile cool down. Building this up gradually with the aim of been at 7miles HMP at the end. When is your HM and where?

Cheers Sam. Saturdays tend to be my HM pace session - I have it up to 5miles now though they aren't getting any easier Like yourself I'm hoping to get up to 7miles a couple of weeks befrore the main event.

I also took the advice of KielyUnusual on the graduates thread and have upped my LSRs distances so I'll peak at a 17 mile LSR in weeks a couple of weekends before the race. Sure I'm halfway there now with the first 15 miler this weekend.

menoscemo wrote: »

That sounds like a great workout.
I wouldn't worry about doing LSRs too slowly especially if that allows you to put the fast bits at the end of them.

Thanks Meno - good to get some reassurance I'm not doing anything too stupid.

amcgee

Hi
i think all the comments here are good advice, although if you are a young and fit with plenty of energy(jedwards rang a marathon in 3:30 ish without any training) but if your normal like the rest of us, i think you need to think your first marathon as a tester

its good to aim for a time, but you can't judge your marathon pace and estimated time on a 10k. i did my first marathon in cork last year. trained hard for it, had a pb of 1h31 for wexford half marathon a month of so before the race and a few pb's in 10 miles also, under 70m for 10, was happy the way things were going, i followed a plan and then the race came. The weather changed for the better over the june weekend and i wasn't prepared for it
I went with the 3:30 pacers(my first mistake and most costly mistake) and paid the price at mile 16 when i had nothing left..i lied down for 5 minutes and tried again. those last 10 miles were the worst 10 miles of my life. absolute torture. i finished in 3:50, collapsed on the line swearing never again!!, my wife and my mother were also saying the same thing.
Once i recovered and thought about it , my mind changed,

I am running the limerick marathon in a hope to redeem all my error's. We all learn from our mistakes. I will start off very slow and take it from their, with no crazy time aimed for, although i will still hope to beat the 3:50 mark.
i am training well and did my first 20 miles on saturday.
So my advise run your first race as a marker..enjoy the experiance and then you might surprise yourself and still run 3:30 ish..
wish you luck and good and healthy training
i would be inclined to go from
20 to 16 to 13 on the 3 weeks before marathon.

Itziger

amcgee wrote: »

Hi
i think all the comments here are good advice, although if you are a young and fit with plenty of energy(jedwards rang a marathon in 3:30 ish without any training) but if your normal like the rest of us, i think you need to think your first marathon as a tester

its good to aim for a time, but you can't judge your marathon pace and estimated time on a 10k. i did my first marathon in cork last year. trained hard for it, had a pb of 1h31 for wexford half marathon a month of so before the race and a few pb's in 10 miles also, under 70m for 10, was happy the way things were going, i followed a plan and then the race came. The weather changed for the better over the june weekend and i wasn't prepared for it
I went with the 3:30 pacers(my first mistake and most costly mistake) and paid the price at mile 16 when i had nothing left..i lied down for 5 minutes and tried again. those last 10 miles were the worst 10 miles of my life. absolute torture. i finished in 3:50, collapsed on the line swearing never again!!, my wife and my mother were also saying the same thing.
Once i recovered and thought about it , my mind changed,

I am running the limerick marathon in a hope to redeem all my error's. We all learn from our mistakes. I will start off very slow and take it from their, with no crazy time aimed for, although i will still hope to beat the 3:50 mark.
i am training well and did my first 20 miles on saturday.
So my advise run your first race as a marker..enjoy the experiance and then you might surprise yourself and still run 3:30 ish..
wish you luck and good and healthy training
i would be inclined to go from
20 to 16 to 13 on the 3 weeks before marathon.

But if you had a 1.31 Half time and training had gone well, why would going with 3.30 pacers be a big mistake?? 1.45 x 2 = 3.30 I would've thought that was a fine plan.

In any case, good luck with number 2.

amcgee

Hi

thanks for the reply, it was a fine plan, until the weather changed. it was hot on the day and i wasnt prepared for it. Going down the long mile road with only a few miles too go, a few people were collapsed on the ground with heat convulsions..it was tough conditions for ordinary runners like myself, I had prepared in cold wintry conditions(we all remember the weather we had before june last year, it was dreadful). So when the weather changed i wasnt prepared for it, i was very surprised to hit the wall at mile 16, considering i was running 20 miles for fun beforehand, i rang a 22 mile run by myself about 6 weeks before and did it in approx 3 hours, so i couldn't see myself doing any worse that 3:45. I may have over trained also(i did a good few 20 plus runs)
Another part of the learning curve is i will be bringing some chocalate with me , as i think that was a factor also, i had gels but they didn't seem to do anything. i have being bringing twixs and banana's.. it does help.
i tapered for 3 weeks and i think that could be too long, so will probably only do it for 2 weeks this time. my ultimate aim is Dublin and may try and crack the 3:30 mark then!. but for limerick i just want to get around without any bed breaks!.

Finnt

Hi!
I know what you mean about using the first as a marker, I think that's what I'll do, won't get too worried about times,
Training a going well 17m lsr last Sunday, 18 this week end then a step back week then 20,14,20 and then start tapering !!