Lunchtime 'protest' tomorrow

solerina

So whats happening in most schools, are ye doing it etc.
There was a rota put up by our school steward toward for it, no discussion, no consultation, nothing....my name is on the rota but I wont be doing it !!

vamos!

I am dreading it. I am going to do it because I don't want to cause bad feeling by not but I really don't seethe point. I have a crazily busy Tuesday with no free periods and have planned orals for after school tomorrow. I have tea break supervision and I don't know how long I will need to be outside for. 9-6 with a break standing outside for no reason will not be fun. If I thought it would be effective I would do it but I really can't see the logic (hoping to be pleasantly surprised). Is every school operating a rota?

losullivan

We have a rota of 20 mins each in our place, everyone has signed up to do their bit. I was very against this idea at first but my opinion has changed somewhat in recent days. Several members of my branch have been contacted by the media to give interviews outlining our concerns tomorrow.This is better than our current situation of being ignored.

doc_17

We're all going out. Except those on supervision

chases0102

What would be expected of a non-Union member who supports action against JCSA?

implausible

I gave the rota out today, 10 mins for everyone which I thought was fair. Teachers knew about it from the media, yet seemed surprised that it was going ahead. I organised a lunchtime meeting to discuss it and very few turned up, yet when I arrived in the staff room, there was a crowd giving out about the lack of consultation!

The same teachers will give out stink about the unions not doing anything for them when the JCSA starts affecting the school and them directly.

I'll have a few stalwarts at the gate, but honestly can't tell what the turnout and reaction is going to be.

RealJohn

chases0102 wrote: »

What would be expected of a non-Union member who supports action against JCSA?

I would imagine you'll be welcome to take part. Greater numbers is presumably better for the protest.

That being said, I think this little 'hunger strike' is a complete waste of time. I still don't know why I haven't resigned from the union. It's a waste of my money and this idiotic hunger strike is just more evidence of it.

chases0102

Cheers.

Couldn't agree more with what you say. On the one hand, I feel almost hypocritical in criticising the unions as I decided a while ago not to pay these fools money and therefore am not affiliated, and yet I feel powerless when situations come up like this. I would love if a new union was to germinate out of this constant attack on our jobs.

evolving_doors

Its on rte Prime time in a few minutes! Lets see what the angle is..

amacca

Armelodie wrote: »

Its on rte Prime time in a few minutes! Lets see what the angle is..

Is it just me or is Pat King

a) Competely unable to put across (what are imo) reasonable objections to the new "save 30 million, make a name for myself and possibly swan off to a new european position after diminishing my countries education system for possibly the next 10-15 years ruari quinn cert" - I mean he almost appears to be on the point of falling asleep at times to me etc….I don't consider my self good at debating but I honestly think even I could do a bit better than that with a bit of research and preparation

b) Deliberately being useless in a debate while not making it so blatantly obvious that union members could put a finger on it so he can swan off to a nice govt sponsored position and/or board(s) after his term is finished so long as he doesn't rock the boat

c) Somehow intimidated by Quinn

evolving_doors

Every time ruari interrupted, Pat appeared to shut the hell up and bow his head. What a wet debate, Ruari's main arguement hung on what a ty student said about forgetting everything.
Itll be back to integers and area of a square for that young fellow when he finishes TY...actually they should have asked what he remembers from primary school too, he probably hasn't learned joined writing properly so. Cmon pat, show some interest.

RealJohn

I've just watched Prime Time having already read the comments on this thread and to be honest, I think Pat King did alright. He might not have been as forceful as he might have been but he did put Quinn in his place a few times and responded fairly well to Miriam's questions too. I certainly think that Quinn came off worse than King did (and I'd be the first to criticise union wasters if I thought criticism was due).

I still think that this protest is a waste of time and money though.

Peter Flynt

Isn't that very interesting. . . A LABOUR MINISTER debating with a union leader in a TV studio.

Of Course there's nothing Labour about Labour

doc_17

chases0102 wrote: »

What would be expected of a non-Union member who supports action against JCSA?

Join the Union

clunked

Or you could do something useful with your money each month:rolleyes:

Peter Flynt

RealJohn wrote: »

I've just watched Prime Time having already read the comments on this thread and to be honest, I think Pat King did alright. He might not have been as forceful as he might have been but he did put Quinn in his place a few times and responded fairly well to Miriam's questions too. I certainly think that Quinn came off worse than King did (and I'd be the first to criticise union wasters if I thought criticism was due).

I still think that this protest is a waste of time and money though.

I agree.

I think King did quite well.

Quinn was all over the place - on teh one hand stating he wants an end to rote learning whilst on the other stating there will be "no change" to the Leaving Cert or asking King what it is the ASTI want (coming out with his prepared soundbite "tell us what you're for rather than what you're against") with King talling him he gave him a 40 page document which presumably Quinn didn't bother his arse to read.

endakenny

Peter Flynt wrote: »

I agree.

I think King did quite well.

Quinn was all over the place - on teh one hand stating he wants an end to rote learning whilst on the other stating there will be "no change" to the Leaving Cert or asking King what it is the ASTI want (coming out with his prepared soundbite "tell us what you're for rather than what you're against") with King talling him he gave him a 40 page document which presumably Quinn didn't bother his arse to read.

I'll watch it on the Player when I get around to it.

39 minutes into the following edition of This Week, which was broadcast on 19 January, Richard Crowley asked Quinn about the issue of pupils undergoing JCSA assessment and then undergoing the present exam system in the Leaving Cert.

Quinn said that the change to JC assessment would work its way through to the Leaving Cert and that he is looking at aspects of the unsatisfactory nature of the Leaving Cert.

http://www.rte.ie/news/player/this-week/2014/0119/

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

I'll watch it on the Player when I get around to it.

39 minutes into the following edition of This Week, which was broadcast on 19 January, Richard Crowley asked Quinn about the issue of pupils undergoing JCSA assessment and then undergoing the present exam system in the Leaving Cert.

Quinn said that the change to JC assessment would work its way through to the Leaving Cert and that he is looking at aspects of the unsatisfactory nature of the Leaving Cert.

http://www.rte.ie/news/player/this-week/2014/0119/

Not a hope he's going to touch the leaving cert. Hes looking into it alright. Same as the council looking into the potholes. If he does touch it hell be known as the Dr. Strangelove of the education system..

Listening to Hook today and he hit the nail on the head. He said no educationalist agrees with him but he is wrapped in the bubble of his advisors.

doc_17

I'll agree with everyone who says the union have let us all down in recent years, well let union members down, but imagine if there was no organised resistance? There'd have been some carnage then. I agree with picking a fight over elements of the JC. We can extract real benefits regarding the JCSA from our action.

vamos!

Anyone else surprised at the lack of coverage this got? I can only find tiny bits of info. mentioned it to a non-teaching friend and she had no clue what I was talking about. I am actually coming around to thinking this could be a good way to get our point across without alienating parents and public but it could only work if media mention it!

endakenny

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/27-000-teachers-protest-over-reform-1.1721251

Mr Quinn said there was some flexibility, but the tradition of having a State examination at the end of third year would no longer happen.

“I want to hear from the teachers. They can’t just say we don’t like this and we don’t want to do it. That ship has left the harbour,” he said.

The ship has left the harbour but the ASTI and the TUI can still torpedo it. If the ballot goes in favour of action by both unions then it will cause difficulties for Quinn and teachers in voluntary, vocational, community and comprehensive secondary schools can respond to retaliatory measures that he may take against them by pulling the plug on the CPA/HRA hours and possibly withdrawing co-operation with inspectors.

whiteandlight

vamos! wrote: »

Anyone else surprised at the lack of coverage this got? I can only find tiny bits of info. mentioned it to a non-teaching friend and she had no clue what I was talking about. I am actually coming around to thinking this could be a good way to get our point across without alienating parents and public but it could only work if media mention it!

Actually for once I think the coverage was favourable. The headlines in the independent and times were actually not bashing teachers and the coverage I heard on newstalk agree with us not Ruairi Quinn.

I also found our students were way more curious about what was going on than they would have been had there been a full blown strike-Then it would have just been "day off, woohoo! Who cares why!"

RealJohn

endakenny wrote: »

..... teachers in voluntary, vocational, community and comprehensive secondary schools can respond to retaliatory measures that he may take against them by pulling the plug on the CPA/HRA hours and possibly withdrawing co-operation with inspectors.

You can't seriously think they'd actually care about either of those measures, can you? Oh they'd have to claim they disapproved publicly and make out that those actions are affecting student outcomes but behind closed doors they'd be laughing at us because ultimately, the government loses nothing and we gain next to nothing but doing either/both of those things.

In the event of industrial action, the only thing that puts real pressure on the government puts pressure on ourselves too and they know that. If it doesn't affect the students then the government doesn't care.

endakenny

RealJohn wrote: »

You can't seriously think they'd actually care about either of those measures, can you? Oh they'd have to claim they disapproved publicly and make out that those actions are affecting student outcomes but behind closed doors they'd be laughing at us because ultimately, the government loses nothing and we gain next to nothing but doing either/both of those things.

In the event of industrial action, the only thing that puts real pressure on the government puts pressure on ourselves too and they know that. If it doesn't affect the students then the government doesn't care.

Students and their parents would turn against you if you went on strike. Refusal to implement the new assessment system would be enough to get the message across.

The unions can get the parents on side by highlighting education cutbacks, e.g. subject choices, guidance counselling. The teachers should forget the NPC-PP and concentrate on appealing to parents directly.

Caiseoipe19

Have ballot papers been sent out by the ASTI?

RealJohn

endakenny wrote: »

Students and their parents would turn against you if you went on strike. Refusal to implement the new assessment system would be enough to get the message across.

The public at large are already against us anyway. Personally, I don't care about turning parents against us because they don't give us nearly enough support or appreciation most of the time anyway.

How are we supposed to refuse to implement the new system? Ok, we won't do the continuous assessment but the students still won't have a proper state exam at the end of third year so the government still saves money (which is the only reason they're bringing this in in the first place).

None of us want to do something that will affect the students, especially at this time of year, but the government won't care otherwise.

teacherhead

endakenny wrote: »

Students and their parents would turn against you if you went on strike. Refusal to implement the new assessment system would be enough to get the message across.

The unions can get the parents on side by highlighting education cutbacks, e.g. subject choices, guidance counselling. The teachers should forget the NPC-PP and concentrate on appealing to parents directly.

do you think that this hasn't been done? They all give lip service to guidance cuts and sna cuts fact is well to do parents would prefer schools with no special needs kids. They want streaming not mixed ability, they want points not a rounded education.

it seems the only people looking for broad balanced inclusive education are the teachers.

km79

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

Have ballot papers been sent out by the ASTI?

Got mine last week

solerina

Caiseoipe19 wrote: »

Have ballot papers been sent out by the ASTI?

I got mine last Friday

sitstill

I haven't got mine and when I emailed them they confirmed that it had been sent but said they could not send a replacement.

seavill

sitstill wrote: »

I haven't got mine and when I emailed them they confirmed that it had been sent but said they could not send a replacement.

Mine only arrived today

endakenny

teacherhead wrote: »

do you think that this hasn't been done? They all give lip service to guidance cuts and sna cuts fact is well to do parents would prefer schools with no special needs kids. They want streaming not mixed ability, they want points not a rounded education.

it seems the only people looking for broad balanced inclusive education are the teachers.

You're essentially saying that well-to-do parents don't care about the psychological well-being of their children, i.e. caring only about CAO points.

As for your allegation that they don't want special needs kids in mainstream education, prejudice towards children who have special needs has been reduced by the public outcry over institutional abuse of children.

With regard to streaming, that already takes place in English, Irish and Maths in secondary schools on the basis of the results of first-year pupils' house exams before Christmas or towards the end of the following May.

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

You're essentially saying that well-to-do parents don't care about the psychological well-being of their children, i.e. caring only about CAO points.

As for your allegation that they don't want special needs kids in mainstream education, prejudice towards children who have special needs has been reduced by the public outcry over institutional abuse of children.

With regard to streaming, that already takes place in English, Irish and Maths in secondary schools on the basis of the results of first-year pupils' house exams before Christmas or towards the end of the following May.

I think ye might be surprised to find that sometimes well to do parents have children with special needs too!

Although in saying that I was talking to a teacher in a non fee charging school in ' south county dublin' and she said they regularly get special needs students who have ' non special needs' siblings going to the fee charging schools.

Although in saying that!!...a lot of the fee charging schools would be highly academic, so a student with special needs might be able to do differentiation in maths but still unable to live an independant life (go to shops, dress themselves etc...). In reality they could be potentially better off in a special school, or a school with more emphasis on vocational subjected. Its not as clearcut... anyway I digress but its important to note.

As regards streaming you would be surprised how many schools still stream from 1st year. Frowned upon by the dept. inspectors though but what are ya gonna do eh?

i'd take a punt there are maths, and english classes that have mixed ability in 6th year! what do you do if you've a class of thirty with 2 doing ordinary level?

endakenny

Armelodie wrote: »

As regards streaming you would be surprised how many schools still stream from 1st year. Frowned upon by the dept. inspectors though but what are ya gonna do eh?

So why doesn't the government bring in a law to deal with boards of management of schools that stream from 1st year? It wouldn't have to be legislation brought to the Oireachtas. A ministerial order might work.

Caiseoipe19

Ah yes, mine just arrived today too!

evolving_doors

endakenny wrote: »

So why doesn't the government bring in a law to deal with boards of management of schools that stream from 1st year? It wouldn't have to be legislation brought to the Oireachtas. A ministerial order might work.

Banding/Streaming/Mixed ability... they're a'll philosophies really.. Some could argue that streaming pitches the lesson to the student more accurately than mixed ability..Consider the difficulties with the 'hangers on' in Honours maths now.. A few years ago you could do a lot more at a quicker pace with a small higer level class.. now you have the students who are hanging out for the bonus points saying "I don;t get it miss could you explain it again.... I still don;t get it etc.." Mixed ability is a lot more work but we aspire to a 'mixed society'..supposedly.

. and the same old same old ...the Govt. provides FOR education ... the schools actually Provide the education.

Back to the new JC.. I suppose we'll have to set and record targets/outcomes/key skills for all our classes and all our students in that particular class. What all can do/what some can do/what a few can do etc...

teacherhead

endakenny wrote: »

You're essentially saying that well-to-do parents don't care about the psychological well-being of their children, i.e. caring only about CAO points.

As for your allegation that they don't want special needs kids in mainstream education, prejudice towards children who have special needs has been reduced by the public outcry over institutional abuse of children.

With regard to streaming, that already takes place in English, Irish and Maths in secondary schools on the basis of the results of first-year pupils' house exams before Christmas or towards the end of the following May.

My point is that your suggestion over rallying parents will not bear any fruit. Parents of special needs kids are in the minority, the rest don't really care once their own kids are ok. I suppose its human nature.

The fact of the matter is that resistance to the new JC by teachers is the only thing that has any hope of working.

I know its of topic now but the truth us that parents want exclusive education. That might not be in a private school