@@@# The: All-New Charter, Consultation Process @@@@ -2Days left to have had your say

evolving_doors

Dear members,

The mods here are thinking that a review of the forum charter is long overdue. We are not looking to do a radical overhaul, just some tweakings and addenda to what's already there. In the interest of collegiality we would be interested in considering any suggestions you might have.

We will leave this submissions thread open untill Tuesday 18th March.

Just some parameters..

• Keep it brief enough.
• Try not to bring across old arguments from other threads.
• Maybe aspects of the charter could be improved to avoid fights/threads being dragged off topic.
• Feel Free to PM me if you would prefer to suggest stuff off-thread. Bare in mind I wouldn't really have the time to discuss the merits of Nobo whiteboard markers over Bic etc.
• Tips and experiences from other charters are welcome.
• The anonymity of boards.ie does a provide a good platform to speak our minds, but we are also wondering about issues surrounding identifiability of posters/schools/parents/students/others.
• We can't make any promises about submissions so apologies if your suggestion doesn't pop up in the charter.

Now.. who had their hand up first?

RealJohn

Those who wish to post in Irish when discussing the Irish language and the teaching of it should not be forced to post in english too. I understand that it's one of boards.ie's rules, not one specific to this forum but I feel it's unreasonable that we can't even post in Irish when discussing something specific to the subject/ language without having to write two posts.

Google translate is readily available to those who really want to know what's being said.

evolving_doors

RealJohn wrote: »

Those who wish to post in Irish when discussing the Irish language and the teaching of it should not be forced to post in english too. I understand that it's one of boards.ie's rules, not one specific to this forum but I feel it's unreasonable that we can't even post in Irish when discussing something specific to the subject/ language without having to write two posts.

Google translate is readily available to those who really want to know what's being said.

Thanks Realjohn... Its on the agenda.

Zaph

RealJohn wrote: »

Those who wish to post in Irish when discussing the Irish language and the teaching of it should not be forced to post in english too. I understand that it's one of boards.ie's rules, not one specific to this forum but I feel it's unreasonable that we can't even post in Irish when discussing something specific to the subject/ language without having to write two posts.

Google translate is readily available to those who really want to know what's being said.

Requiring an English translation for a post in any language other than English, this is not just applicable to Irish, is site policy and will not be changed. The obvious exceptions to this are the language specific forums such as Teach na nGealt, Espanol, Polski, etc.

RealJohn

Zaph wrote: »

Requiring an English translation for a post in any language other than English, this is not just applicable to Irish, is site policy and will not be changed. The obvious exceptions to this are the language specific forums such as Teach na nGealt, Espanol, Polski, etc.

I'm aware that it doesn't just apply to Irish but given that the only official languages in this country are english and Irish, I feel that this discriminates unfairly on Irish speakers. I realise that boards is not an agent of the state but this policy does discriminate against a large minority of the people of Ireland.
I don't expect this to change but given that google translate is easily accessible and quite good (though admittedly, far from perfect), I think that this policy is unnecessary.
I've said my piece and I won't comment on this issue again in this thread unless asked to by a moderator or administrator.

Zaph

This argument has been done to death hundreds of times in Feedback and other forums, so there's little point in re-hashing it here. As stated, it's site policy and cannot be changed for individual forums.

evolving_doors

Ok thanks Zaph and Realjohn. I can see both points of view and it's probably a debate for a bigger arena...but if dems de rules then dems the rules.

Anyone else?

evolving_doors

Anyone any thoughts on identifiability of schools/boards posters/students etc on this forum?

whiteandlight

I think it's something posters need to be made more aware of. This is a very small country and really you need to be very careful that anything you post cannot be mis interpreted, particularly by anyone who may know you

whiteandlight

I also think we should add to the search info:

"Please note there are multiple posts about returning to teaching. Please read these threads before posting"


There are multiples of these cropping up weekly and it does require a lot of repeating yourself!

TheDriver

1) How to deal with repeated unsubstantiated attacks on teachers by trolls
2) Something about fair play. Over the last few months, its easy to blame "management" for everything and at times as a long time poster here, I have thought about leaving this forum. Action is taken on people who attack a poster unfairly yet nothing is done about posters who pull facts and figures out of nowhere and repeat accusations. Apparently I am making a million a year whilst sitting on my behind doing nothing, making NQTs do all my work...........
3) Some common threads that new posters could be directed to e.g. "new to teaching and I have a question" or a standard "go ask the TC about your degree" type of things. As per musicmental85 above.
4) Definitely something about identification. I remember someone talking about leaving their Dip school and we could all figure out who it is. And its a very small world unfortunately.

Thanks to all the mods for patrolling/advising.

evolving_doors

Thanks TheDriver, those points are definitely pertinent. I have to admit to trotting out a few sweeping generalisations ' in the past' but was happy to be set straight..

rainbowtrout

Armelodie wrote: »

Anyone any thoughts on identifiability of schools/boards posters/students etc on this forum?

Teachers here should have enough cop that if they post enough information that it could identify them. On the other hand, they shouldn't post enough detail that identifies their school or a student.



There's an awful lot of trolling on this forum from non teachers. Trolling that is not tolerated on other forums on boards. The last time the charter was debated I said this, it was supposed to change and there has been no change. A lot of teachers who used to post here have left. Lots of AH style abuse is tolerated, and I can't remember the last time any of them were banned. I'd be very happy to see a zero tolerance policy for 'all teachers are crap and earn loads of money' style sweeping generalisations.

Pretty sick of reading threads filled with trolls spouting unsubstantiated rubbish, that is not backed up with a source. Serious clamp down needed.


One sticky should be created (the one that's there probably needs an overhaul). Split it into several posts each with a relevant set of links/theme:

• Union links/Haddington Road/Croke Park requirements
• Salary and pay scales/Requirements for CID
• Teaching council qualifications/History of Education exam/Irish qualification
• Jobs - educationposts.ie etc
• List of VEC/ETB websites
• How to apply to PDE/Hibernia/Primary school postgrad
• Requirements for NQTs
• Teaching in UK/UAE/outside Ireland
• How to apply to correct written exams/superintending

Can't think of anything else, those seem to be the most frequently asked factual topics on the forum.

evolving_doors

Thanks Rainbowtrout.. regarding Identifiability I suppose we could all find out who each other is if we dug for long enough (if we had that much time on our hands).
I think the issue could be as simple as someone who initially signs up to boards with their real name as username MAryODea or whatever.. we will have a few suggestions to make about this in the updated charter so I hope that people take them on board.
Even if a teacher said ..."I was at a parent teacher meeting last night and a parent said x about her daughter".. that could very easily expose a student or parent in what is essentially a confidential conversation.

AS regards the trolling it is a bit of an issue alright. I suppose the problem specific to this forum is that anyone who ever attended school has a vested interest and considers themselves apt to comment.. But who's to say that their comment isn't valid either even if it is slightly biased against teachers.. in the past I've sided with the view of the parent over a teacher's actions and was heavily berated for doing so..( I thought I was right and logical anyhow!!). So I suppose we have to leave it open to some extent. But yes we will endeavour to deal with this in some respect in the charter.

On the issues of bans.. we have used the trusty banhamer a few times and deleted posts straightaway so you might be surprised at how many numpties have been told to 'get their bag and baggage'. I think the 'time-sinks 'are the most difficult to deal with though.. starts off as low level debate and then drags people into the usual stuff we have witnessed recently. I've been guilty of engaging in off topic arguments too so I'll hold my hands up but we recognise that things have to be looked at alright. I suppose as a mod (and I'm not speaking for the other mods here)I feel that in the general 'on boards.ie' you go through the yellow card warning/red card warning/infract/ban/forum ban in that order. But we have been jumping the levels a bit quicker lately (although it might not seem that way on thread).

Suggestions on how to cover this in the charter would be welcome. Although you know yourself, in the classroom there's always some students who always just skate around the line of the rules, no matter how many warnings their given.... we're all adults here though !!

We'll take note of the 'requesting sources' too. It can be tricky too as it can become a 'battle of the links' especially with the proliferation of data and news stories these days, which can also drag a thread way off topic very quickly too.

Cheers for that

Godge

TheDriver wrote: »

1) How to deal with repeated unsubstantiated attacks on teachers by trolls
2) Something about fair play. Over the last few months, its easy to blame "management" for everything and at times as a long time poster here, I have thought about leaving this forum. Action is taken on people who attack a poster unfairly yet nothing is done about posters who pull facts and figures out of nowhere and repeat accusations. Apparently I am making a million a year whilst sitting on my behind doing nothing, making NQTs do all my work...........
3) Some common threads that new posters could be directed to e.g. "new to teaching and I have a question" or a standard "go ask the TC about your degree" type of things. As per musicmental85 above.
4) Definitely something about identification. I remember someone talking about leaving their Dip school and we could all figure out who it is. And its a very small world unfortunately.

Thanks to all the mods for patrolling/advising.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Teachers here should have enough cop that if they post enough information that it could identify them. On the other hand, they shouldn't post enough detail that identifies their school or a student.



There's an awful lot of trolling on this forum from non teachers. Trolling that is not tolerated on other forums on boards. The last time the charter was debated I said this, it was supposed to change and there has been no change. A lot of teachers who used to post here have left. Lots of AH style abuse is tolerated, and I can't remember the last time any of them were banned. I'd be very happy to see a zero tolerance policy for 'all teachers are crap and earn loads of money' style sweeping generalisations.

Pretty sick of reading threads filled with trolls spouting unsubstantiated rubbish, that is not backed up with a source. Serious clamp down needed.


One sticky should be created (the one that's there probably needs an overhaul). Split it into several posts each with a relevant set of links/theme:

• Union links/Haddington Road/Croke Park requirements
• Salary and pay scales/Requirements for CID
• Teaching council qualifications/History of Education exam/Irish qualification
• Jobs - educationposts.ie etc
• List of VEC/ETB websites
• How to apply to PDE/Hibernia/Primary school postgrad
• Requirements for NQTs
• Teaching in UK/UAE/outside Ireland
• How to apply to correct written exams/superintending

Can't think of anything else, those seem to be the most frequently asked factual topics on the forum.

As a non-teacher who posts on these boards occasionally, I would be wary of attempts to stifle debate through the charter.

Teaching is considered by many outside of teaching to be an insular profession and that sort of approach would copperfasten that perception. The way to deal with the "all teachers are crap and earn loads of money" stuff is to ban those responsible.

On the other hand, there are a number of posters on here who can't see past "the Minister is out to get us, the unions are as bad, we are the most downtrodden in Ireland and any change in our terms and conditions is an attempt to get at us, and if anyone says anything else they are either ignorant outsiders or a traitor to the profession". Quite often they get their facts wrong too.

In any debate, if it descends to an argument between extremists, it goes nowhere.

evolving_doors

Godge wrote: »

As a non-teacher who posts on these boards occasionally, I would be wary of attempts to stifle debate through the charter.

Teaching is considered by many outside of teaching to be an insular profession and that sort of approach would copperfasten that perception. The way to deal with the "all teachers are crap and earn loads of money" stuff is to ban those responsible.

On the other hand, there are a number of posters on here who can't see past "the Minister is out to get us, the unions are as bad, we are the most downtrodden in Ireland and any change in our terms and conditions is an attempt to get at us, and if anyone says anything else they are either ignorant outsiders or a traitor to the profession". Quite often they get their facts wrong too.

In any debate, if it descends to an argument between extremists, it goes nowhere.

Many thanks, we are cognisant of the fact that boards is an 'open forum' so trying to limit it to ' teachers views only' contravenes the spirit of boards.is to some extent. But we have to balance it with sweeping statements and stereotypes that usually drag threads off topic.

As you mentioned, an 'argument between extremes' going nowhere, therefore the implication is that it is against teachers and non teachers. In faireness though this is a teaching forum occupied mainly by teachers. Is there any point in me going in to the pets forum saying that pets are a bad idea!

As regards the emboldened phrase above, I think that it wouldn't be improper to ask where you have seen these phrases mentioned.. Have teachers in this forum ever claimed "we are the most down trodden in Ireland" ..you will also find that there is a bit of union bashing alright..but equally there is a strong contingency who argue that we ARE the union we are complaining against....facts and all that.

Also you could argue that by its very nature any profession is insular. The only difference with teaching is that most of the general public have more experience of it than say going to a doctor/dentist once a year or hiring a solicitor/architect etc. Hence you can see why teachers take a little bit of umbrage on folk who try to tell them how their job should be done according to their narrow experience of education.

Like the global warming 'debate' the usual procedure is to get both points of view for a discussion...Even though 95% of scientists might say that global warming is caused by mankind and it is undeniable. In a way, this forum is populated by the 95% of 'experts'.

But it is definitely on the agenda as regards non-teachers participation. (Of which I'm all for ).

Godge

Armelodie wrote: »

As regards the emboldened phrase above, I think that it wouldn't be improper to ask where you have seen these phrases mentioned.. Have teachers in this forum ever claimed "we are the most down trodden in Ireland" ..you will also find that there is a bit of union bashing alright..but equally there is a strong contingency who argue that we ARE the union we are complaining against....facts and all that.

Interesting that when using a generalised phrase on one side of the debate I am asked to back it up.

rainbowtrout wrote: »

. I'd be very happy to see a zero tolerance policy for 'all teachers are crap and earn loads of money' style sweeping generalisations.


.

On the other hand, there is generalised acceptance of the above point without the requirement to produce evidence.

I am not going to point out who are the paranoid posters on this forum but to a non-teacher they stick out a mile.

The specific comments haven't been made but neither has anyone said that "all teachers are crap and earn loads of money".

One of the most surprising things about the teaching profession, and it extends to these boards, is it's insularity and inability to deal with valid outside critical analysis.

Godge

Armelodie wrote: »

Also you could argue that by its very nature any profession is insular. The only difference with teaching is that most of the general public have more experience of it than say going to a doctor/dentist once a year or hiring a solicitor/architect etc. Hence you can see why teachers take a little bit of umbrage on folk who try to tell them how their job should be done according to their narrow experience of education..

Interesting but a teacher who has been to school, been to college and been back to school has the broad experience to analyse their own job?

That is the point about the insularity.

Armelodie wrote: »

Like the global warming 'debate' the usual procedure is to get both points of view for a discussion...Even though 95% of scientists might say that global warming is caused by mankind and it is undeniable. In a way, this forum is populated by the 95% of 'experts'.

But it is definitely on the agenda as regards non-teachers participation. (Of which I'm all for ).

An alternative view would point out that 99% of footballers can't analyse their performance in a football match and need outside experts to do so. Many of those experts - managers, coaches - have no direct experience of the top level of football.

rainbowtrout

Godge wrote: »

Interesting that when using a generalised phrase on one side of the debate I am asked to back it up.




On the other hand, there is generalised acceptance of the above point without the requirement to produce evidence.

I am not going to point out who are the paranoid posters on this forum but to a non-teacher they stick out a mile.

The specific comments haven't been made but neither has anyone said that "all teachers are crap and earn loads of money".

One of the most surprising things about the teaching profession, and it extends to these boards, is it's insularity and inability to deal with valid outside critical analysis.

I think it's fairly obvious that by posting that I was referring to the many sweeping generalisations that are made on this forum by non-teachers. And I'm not paranoid.

evolving_doors

Godge wrote: »

Interesting that when using a generalised phrase on one side of the debate I am asked to back it up.


On the other hand, there is generalised acceptance of the above point without the requirement to produce evidence.

I am not going to point out who are the paranoid posters on this forum but to a non-teacher they stick out a mile.

The specific comments haven't been made but neither has anyone said that "all teachers are crap and earn loads of money".

One of the most surprising things about the teaching profession, and it extends to these boards, is it's insularity and inability to deal with valid outside critical analysis.

That could be an Excellent point but I'm actually unable to deal with it... Therefore Its on the agenda...

Thanks

Anyone else?

Godge

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think it's fairly obvious that by posting that I was referring to the many sweeping generalisations that are made on this forum by non-teachers. And I'm not paranoid.

I have no problem with that reference and the sweeping generalisation.

The only problem I had was the fact that there are equally sweeping generalisations on the other side of the debate which are plainly obvious to neutrals and I was asked to justify my reference to that.

evolving_doors

Anyone else before the bell rings?

...(while the class has well and truly packed up and made for the door).

evolving_doors

Ok That's it Folks.
Thanks.
Thread closed.