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Screwed by Bank of Ireland - No money for weekend

  • 07-03-2014 1:39pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭


    Have I any consumer rights here ?

    I recently changed from AIB to TSB

    As a result of the changeover, I have been advised by TSB and BOI that the details for my monthly Mortgage direct debit cannot be done for February due to the time it takes to set up the details on their systems.

    I was told that I need to do a manually payment for my February mortgage which I have done in February.

    I also received a letter from Bank of Ireland advising me that the account is set up and the Direct Debit is in place for 25th March 2014.

    This morning, I went to withdraw money from my TSB account, it advised me that I had insufficient funds which I found very unusual.

    I have checked my account online and noted that Bank of Ireland Mortgages took the funds from my current account, without any consent therefore leaving me in a overdraft and no funds for today or the weekend.

    I have rang BOI and TSB and while they are all apologetic etc etc, BOI have admitted fault but it will take 3 working days before I receive the funds, yet that is no good to me

    As I sit here typing, I had to borrow €5 from my work colleague to get lunch, and unsure what to do for the weekend ahead - most likely borrow money off everyone around me.

    Do I have any rights here in compensation for this ?, I was actually hoping to buy a flight today before prices go up on Ryanair and standard bits and bobs.

    The idea of having to ask people for a loan should not be the case considering they messed up.

    Worse of all, if this was something i messed up, the banks will be on the phone asap, demanding money and will take no excuses wheres the tables are turned, and they are passing on the fault along the lines to technology

    Any help please and thank you


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭emeldc


    If the bank have admitted they screwed up, I would have insisted that a temporary overdraft be set up until the funds are back in your account.

    Are BOI and TSB all the one now?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71,184 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    emeldc wrote: »
    Are BOI and TSB all the one now?

    No. PTSB are still independent albeit owned by the state, BOI are completely unconnected.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,625 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    I would be in the bank refusing to leave without a temporary free overdraft. I realise you are in work.

    Under SEPA, the money should be returned ASAP.
    As a Debtor under the SEPA DD Scheme you have the right to:


    Use your account to pay a SEPA Direct Debit in any SEPA country.
    Instruct your bank to refuse a Direct Debit.
    Prohibit the application of any Direct Debits to your bank accounts.
    From 1st February 2014 you can specify Creditors who may collect Direct Debits from your bank accounts.
    From 1st February 2014 you can specify Creditors who may not collect Direct Debits from your bank accounts.
    From 1st February 2014 you can limit a Direct Debit collection to a certain amount and/or periodicity.
    Request a refund for any Direct Debit within eight weeks from the date on which the Direct Debit was debited from your account. Within the eight week period your bank must refund you on a no-questions asked basis.
    Request a refund for any unauthorised Direct Debit after 8 weeks and within 13 months from the date the on which the Direct Debit was debited from your account.

    http://www.ipso.ie/section/SEPASDDDebtorRights

    Actually, it doesn't say how long it should take to get to you.

    In my experience you have no hope of compensation, but I would open a formal complaint immediately anyway.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    emeldc wrote: »
    If the bank have admitted they screwed up, I would have insisted that a temporary overdraft be set up until the funds are back in your account.

    Not forgetting the important part....a temp overdraft with no interest being charged


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    OP : You have absolute rights under the Direct Debit [SEPA] Scheme. Ring your local branch now. They MUST refund the money immediately. And I mean within the hour. It's the agreement they signed up for.

    If you went into overdraft, they must refund all charges too. Don'pt ring 365, you have to ring the branch that holds your current account.

    I'll be around for a few hours. You will need more advice because they will stone wall you. Ring them now and report back.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭emeldc


    MYOB wrote: »
    No. PTSB are still independent albeit owned by the state, BOI are completely unconnected.

    Thats what I thought, but the OP seems to be dealing with both having said that he switched from AIB to TSB but BOI screwed up :confused:

    EDIT: I get it now, the mortgage is with BOI.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭DulchieLaois


    TSB my current branch cant do anything cause, it was not them who messed up, therefore they cant give me a temp overdraft.

    BOI are the guilty party as they called for the funds when they shouldnt have, therefore leaving me with nothing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    TSB my current branch cant do anything cause, it was not them who messed up, therefore they cant give me a temp overdraft.

    BOI are the guilty party as they called for the funds when they shouldnt have, therefore leaving me with nothing.

    OP : Tell TSB that an unathorised Direct Debit was taken from your account. They HAVE TO refund it. tis the rules.

    Linky : http://www.ipso.ie/section/SEPASDDDebtorRights
    Request a refund for any Direct Debit within eight weeks from the date on which the Direct Debit was debited from your account. Within the eight week period your bank must refund you on a no-questions asked basis.

    Request a refund for any unauthorised Direct Debit after 8 weeks and within 13 months from the date the on which the Direct Debit was debited from your account.


    EDIT : As I said, your bank will stone wall you. Don't take it. Be assertive and tell them to live up to the SEPA Scheme rules. TSB MUST refund you today. No overdraft, no loan but a full refund of the money that BOI took.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭DulchieLaois


    They will refund it but the standard procedure of it takes 24-72 hours to do so - they will contact BOI to request the money etc etc - the usual bull we get all the time RangeR - thanks though

    Since, its hitting 5pm, i am sure its way too late to get anything at this stage of the day and have to rely on the generousity of others around me for the weekend.

    Pretty peed for sure by their actions and yet they will sweet FA to rectify the problem for me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    OP, there is also a high chance that the person that you are speaking to is not aware of the SEPA rules and are quoting bank policy. Bank policy is irrelevant. If you are getting no joy in your local branch, ring head office and ask to be put through to group complaints. They should sort you within the hour.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    They will refund it but the standard procedure of it takes 24-72 hours to do so - they will contact BOI to request the money etc etc - the usual bull we get all the time RangeR - thanks though

    Since, its hitting 5pm, i am sure its way too late to get anything at this stage of the day and have to rely on the generousity of others around me for the weekend.

    Pretty peed for sure by their actions and yet they will sweet FA to rectify the problem for me.

    No no no. Refund is now. Not depending on when BOI refund the money. BOI refunding the money has nothing to do with you. TSB are obligated by law to refund you now. This minute [allow an hour to be nice] but really, that's how it is.

    They are trying to bend the rules so they are not short of funds. That's not allowed in the rules. Don't accept their fobs. Really, I've been through this many times.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭DulchieLaois


    On a Friday evening, they are gone to the pub no doubt

    I just tried the Complaints departments by phone and just got a message saying that "We regret that we are unavailable"

    Thanks RangeR for your help, its hopeless situation and so are the banks overall


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    On a Friday evening, they are gone to the pub no doubt

    I just tried the Complaints departments by phone and just got a message saying that "We regret that we are unavailable"

    Thanks RangeR for your help, its hopeless situation and so are the banks overall

    I understand. It's not hopeless. People have to complain or nothing will chance.


    Legislator, why are BOI allowed to abuse the Direct Debit and SEPA Schemes with impunity. You know I was royally screwed by them. You know it happens on a near daily basis. You know BOI were in the wrong. You know that BOI stone walled me. Yet you do nothing.

    Your scheme is broken. You know it's broken. We know it's broken. Yet nothing appears to be done to fix it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭DulchieLaois


    I am going to lodge complaint with the financial ombudsman - its a lost cause but still its THE PRINCIPAL of everything

    I just rang TSB and they have advised me, I am sorry Sir, it will take 72 hours before the funds reach my account


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    I am going to lodge complaint with the financial ombudsman - its a lost cause but still its THE PRINCIPAL of everything

    I just rang TSB and they have advised me, I am sorry Sir, it will take 72 hours before the funds reach my account

    This is unforgiveable. They are flaunting the rules. Ombudsman won't help yet.

    Make formal complaint to TSB Group.
    Make formal complaint to IPSO. I've informed IPSO, informally, already.
    Maybe make a formal complaint to BOI.
    Put it in writing. Post it by registered post.

    I really feel for you. This just isn't fair. I've been there. Not sure if you're up for it. Could be a long fight.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Bank of Ireland have stolen money from you - don't lose sight of that fact as you pursue this. If you walked into a BOI branch and took a fiver and said I will drop it back on Monday what would happen? Your life would be destroyed that's what!

    Why should there be no consequences when a company's incompetence messes up a person's life like BOI has yours.

    By the way you should link to this in BOI forum and why not email a link to the Joe Duffy show etc. public embarrassment sadly is the only weapon.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    RangeR wrote: »
    This is unforgiveable. They are flaunting the rules. Ombudsman won't help yet.

    Make formal complaint to TSB Group.
    Make formal complaint to IPSO. I've informed IPSO, informally, already.
    Maybe make a formal complaint to BOI.
    Put it in writing. Post it by registered post.

    I really feel for you. This just isn't fair. I've been there. Not sure if you're up for it. Could be a long fight.

    IPSO don't give a damn. They don't enforce the rules. They will tell you they "work" with the companies - I don't see any evidence of their work! Nor do they "work" with the bill payer when they get fees dumped on them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Pablo Sanchez


    RangeR wrote: »
    OP : You have absolute rights under the Direct Debit [SEPA] Scheme. Ring your local branch now. They MUST refund the money immediately. And I mean within the hour. It's the agreement they signed up for.
    .

    Hi RangeR, can you point to the rule that states that a requested refund of a DD needs to be repaid within the hour?


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    Hi RangeR, can you point to the rule that states that a requested refund of a DD needs to be repaid within the hour?

    http://www.ipso.ie/section/section/YourRightsasaPayer

    I have rang BOI and TSB and while they are all apologetic etc etc, BOI have admitted fault but it will take 3 working days before I receive the funds, yet that is no good to me

    If it is established that an unauthorised direct debit was charged to your account, you are guaranteed an immediate refund by your bank of the amount so charged where you notify your bank without undue delay on becoming aware of the unauthorised direct debit, and in any event no later than 13 months after the date of debiting of such direct debit to your account


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,207 ✭✭✭Pablo Sanchez


    Excellent, thanks a mill


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  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    What's forgotten in all of this is that it is our account and our money. The banks have a responsibility to respect and protect the integrity of a customer's account but this seems to have been long forgotten.

    IPSO appear to operate their own set of rules in relation to the dd system and operate on the basis that things can be fixed up afterwards.
    There is no provision under dd system rules for operating like this.

    This takes no account of companies taking money without permission or consequential messing up of people's lives.

    Bank of Ireland take money they are not entitled to without permission cause huge inconvenience, embarrassment humiliation etc etc
    Consequences? Zero

    Imagine if the op was away on holidays and this happened?


    Miss a direct debit payment though? Bank Charges + administrati0n charges

    The only one ever penalised under dd system is the bill payer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    dub45 wrote: »
    Bank of Ireland have stolen money from you - don't lose sight of that fact as you pursue this. If you walked into a BOI branch and took a fiver and said I will drop it back on Monday what would happen? Your life would be destroyed that's what!

    Why should there be no consequences when a company's incompetence messes up a person's life like BOI has yours.

    By the way you should link to this in BOI forum and why not email a link to the Joe Duffy show etc. public embarrassment sadly is the only weapon.

    It's TSB that's refusing to refund the money. They are the party obliged to refund the OP immediately


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    I agree of course that TSB should have refunded it but who asked for it originally? BOI.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ANXIOUS


    RangeR I followed your thread with interest. I had the same problem as the op an insurance company I canceled took a years premiums. I rang BOI they said I had to fill in a form and POST it to them and they would action it within 24hrs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    I am going to lodge complaint with the financial ombudsman - its a lost cause but still its THE PRINCIPAL of everything

    I just rang TSB and they have advised me, I am sorry Sir, it will take 72 hours before the funds reach my account
    dudara wrote: »
    It's TSB that's refusing to refund the money. They are the party obliged to refund the OP immediately
    Dudara, under the new SEPA rules ORIGINATORS (CREDITOR?) MUST have a facility to reverse a bad debit. To me, all parties are at fault here, other than the OP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    ANXIOUS wrote: »
    RangeR I followed your thread with interest. I had the same problem as the op an insurance company I canceled took a years premiums. I rang BOI they said I had to fill in a form and POST it to them and they would action it within 24hrs.

    How did that turn out? Very conscious of derailing. If its going to be more than one post, maybe start a new thread. Or maybe dudara could split it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ANXIOUS


    RangeR wrote: »
    How did that turn out? Very conscious of derailing. If its going to be more than one post, maybe start a new thread. Or maybe dudara could split it?

    It only happened yesterday, so still in the middle of it. Yeah perhaps a SePa refund thread would be more suitable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    If Trustee Savings Bank could not refund the unauthorised transaction on the day then they should have suggested you visit one of their branches and withdraw cash over the counter i.e. enough to tide you over for the weekend. A form of temporary overdraft that would be repaid once the transaction was corrected. All interest and fees incurred to be refunded in due course.

    That would be considered "practical" banking. Unfortunately it's in short supply at the moment as we wallow in the "computer says no" mire.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭gugleguy


    nlgbbbblth wrote: »
    mire.
    quagmire you mean.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    gugleguy wrote: »
    quagmire you mean.

    Giggiddy.

    Hope this gets sorted quick for you op, yet again banks screw customers and as stated if it was your fault you would be hit with all sorts of charges yet when they do it they say "oh it was an error, sorry about that"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,668 ✭✭✭nlgbbbblth


    gugleguy wrote: »
    quagmire you mean.

    Mire
    a stretch of swampy or boggy ground.
    "acres of land had been reduced to a mire"


    soft mud or dirt.
    "the roads retained their winter mire"

    Quagmire
    a soft boggy area of land that gives way underfoot.

    GIGGITY GIGGITY GIGGITY


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    dudara wrote: »
    It's TSB that's refusing to refund the money. They are the party obliged to refund the OP immediately

    Further to this point it is far too often forgotten that dds do not just arrive at a persons account. This is set in motion by an originator. An originator under the rules of the dd scheme only has permission to debit an account subject to certain conditions being filled: correct notice and approved amount.

    Surely when an originator sends dd information to a bank there should be an audit requirement that the originator certifies that this debit information complies with the rules of the scheme and the mandate signed by the bill payer and that someone is held accountable if it doesnt? After all the originator is accessing a customers account. Someone on the originators side should be held responsible if the dd is not in order?

    But there is no accountability under the scheme.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    First thing on Monday Morning: http://www.ipso.ie/section/Contact


    Direct Debit Manager

    Irish Payment Services Organisation Limited
    5th Floor, Nassau House, Nassau Street, Dublin 2, Ireland

    Email: info@ipso.ie
    Tel: +353 1 663 6740
    Fax: +353 1 284 3409
    Web: www.ipso.ie


    http://www.ipso.ie/section/TheIrishRetailElectronicPaymentsClearingCompanyLimitedIRECC

    IRECC is responsible for ................................ for the administration of the Direct Debit scheme

    http://www.ipso.ie/section/directdebitscheme


    The governance and administration role of IRECC in relation to the Direct Debit Scheme encompasses the following:
    • Developing and maintaining the Scheme, and ensuring as far as practicable that the overall Scheme offers a high standard of efficiency, trust and integrity
    • Monitoring and updating, as necessary, the rules of the Scheme
    • Communicating requisite information regarding the Scheme to banks
    • Issuing Originator Identification Numbers (OINs), maintaining a database of OIN information, and regularly updating the banks on changes to that database
    • Seeking to resolve to the extent practicable, disputes or complaints received regarding the conduct of banks or Originators under the Scheme
    • Providing a dispute resolution forum and/or service as required when a dispute arises regarding the conduct of banks or Originators under the Scheme
    • Communicating directly with an Originator in breach of the rules of the Scheme
    • Handling non-compliance with the Direct Debit Scheme Rules




    Amazing that "handling of non-compliance with Direct Debit Scheme Rules" is last on the list? Surely reveals their priorities.

    Also "extent practicable" is one of those cute hoor "Sir Humphrey" like terms and pretty meaningless. Hardly reassuring when you have beeen messed about like the people here.

    I also wonder who is Bank of Ireland's sponsoring bank in this instance?

    Responsibilities of the Key Players

    Sponsoring Banks Must:
    • Ensure that Originators are aware of and comply with the Scheme Rules
    • Ensure that direct debit files are processed in accordance with agreed procedures and time frames
    • Ensure that Indemnity claims are promptly resolved
    • Take appropriate action with Originators who are not complying with the Rules



    Surely serious potential for conflict of interest here if it is another BOI branch?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    This post has been deleted.

    I saw that. Shirley the exception than the rule.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭DulchieLaois


    Thanks everyone for your threads - I had the funds back in my account on Saturday morning minus 10 euros for overdraft charges which I will get onto BOI and advise them.

    I am not going to walk away from this quietly and make sure to makes some complaints, no doubt all in vain but still, its the principal overall


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    Thanks everyone for your threads - I had the funds back in my account on Saturday morning minus 10 euros for overdraft charges which I will get onto BOI and advise them.

    I am not going to walk away from this quietly and make sure to makes some complaints, no doubt all in vain but still, its the principal overall

    Because it was an unauthorised SEPA debit, your bank must put your account back to the way it was prior to the debit. As in, no overdraft charges.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭dobsdave


    Thanks everyone for your threads - I had the funds back in my account on Saturday morning minus 10 euros for overdraft charges which I will get onto BOI and advise them.

    I am not going to walk away from this quietly and make sure to makes some complaints, no doubt all in vain but still, its the principal overall

    Who did the refund come from?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,347 ✭✭✭LynnGrace


    Thanks everyone for your threads - I had the funds back in my account on Saturday morning minus 10 euros for overdraft charges which I will get onto BOI and advise them.

    I am not going to walk away from this quietly and make sure to makes some complaints, no doubt all in vain but still, its the principal overall

    I would definitely complain. Keep it very crisp and clear, when you write to the bank(s) involved, and be clear as to what you want them to do, in response.
    At a minimum, your account should not be charged any penalties for the fact that the direct debit was taken, when it should not have been.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭DulchieLaois


    I just checked my bank account this morning and they credited me again - now i have additional funds in my account.

    I am sure for one, not going to bother my backside ringing them, enough hassle altogether....let them do the chasing !!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    I just checked my bank account this morning and they credited me again - now i have additional funds in my account.

    I am sure for one, not going to bother my backside ringing them, enough hassle altogether....let them do the chasing !!!!!

    Just bear in mind. It's not your money to spend. Chances are that they will come back to you and just take the money potentially putting you in a difficult predicament if there are insufficient funds.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭DulchieLaois


    Oh, no fear about that, I am only too well aware of that fact that its not mine to spend but thanks for the heads up


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    What shouldn't be forgotten in all of this is that the dd is a facility granted to a business which saves them a great deal of money, bother etc.

    In turn it should not be too much to expect them to comply with the relatively few obligations that they are asked to comply with.

    Nor should it be too much to expect that the rules of the scheme will be enforced without question.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,598 ✭✭✭emeldc


    Oh, no fear about that, I am only too well aware of that fact that its not mine to spend but thanks for the heads up

    Nah, I'd spend it and then tell them I'd give it back in three working days :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭ANXIOUS


    Do I started the process of getting a refund with BOI yesterday at 1pm. Still no refund even though the form says it will be done within 24hrs of receipt.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,450 Mod ✭✭✭✭dub45


    emeldc wrote: »
    Nah, I'd spend it and then tell them I'd give it back in three working days :rolleyes:

    I am sure BOI would be very anxious to have the appropriate "regulations" enforced straight away!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,265 ✭✭✭RangeR


    ANXIOUS wrote: »
    Do I started the process of getting a refund with BOI yesterday at 1pm. Still no refund even though the form says it will be done within 24hrs of receipt.

    First thing in the morning ring them and ask them what the delay is. Totally honest, you don't need to fill out a form. That's their policy, not the policy of the Direct Debit Rules.

    If you don't like what they say in the morning, you can, if you like, go down the formal complaint route. The reason banks are getting away with this [well one of the reasons] is that people just don't complain in the way that matters to national statistics. If you complain to your branch and leave it like that, it doesn't count as a complaint. they will fob you off and leave it at that.

    If you follow the formal complaints procedure, at least it's a potential black mark against them.


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