LSR benefits - what are they?

Colostomy Bag

Question that's been bugging me about LSRs -(my apologies if this has already been flogged to death) I am currently training for the Connemara Marathon next month. I've read a lot about LSRs and running 'slower than marathon pace (MP)' as part of the training - but I'm not clear as to the benefits - what exactly does it achieve that MP doesn't and if you don't ever really run slower than your MP will it be detrimental to you on race day?

All my training this year has been either at or faster than MP. If I'm doing a 15k or a 25k - I will try to run slightly above or at MP. I will also always try to speed up towards the end of any long runs I do (the last few ks). What advantage can running 25k or 30k at a slower pace give you than running the same distance at MP or faster?

ecoli

Colostomy Bag wrote: »

Question that's been bugging me about LSRs -(my apologies if this has already been flogged to death) I am currently training for the Connemara Marathon next month. I've read a lot about LSRs and running 'slower than marathon pace (MP)' as part of the training - but I'm not clear as to the benefits - what exactly does it achieve that MP doesn't and if you don't ever really run slower than your MP will it be detrimental to you on race day?

All my training this year has been either at or faster than MP. If I'm doing a 15k or a 25k - I will try to run slightly above or at MP. I will also always try to speed up towards the end of any long runs I do (the last few ks). What advantage can running 25k or 30k at a slower pace give you than running the same distance at MP or faster?

Simple answer, the recovery. Here is an example scenario

Runner A (say you) runs 30k @ MP on Sunday, your body probably wont be recovered enough for another decent quality session till probably Thursday or Friday. Your mileage will also be lower the days after the hard effort to allow your body to adapt

Runner B runs 2 sessions a week and a Long run and can still manage decent mileage around this as the body doesn't take as long to recover.

There are times when doing these sort of runs is useful but you cant do it on a continual basis without compromising recovery or training and also increasing injury risk

Its not about what you do on one training day, but the continual work you do week in and week out that will decide your success

yaboya1

Colostomy Bag wrote: »

Question that's been bugging me about LSRs -(my apologies if this has already been flogged to death) I am currently training for the Connemara Marathon next month. I've read a lot about LSRs and running 'slower than marathon pace (MP)' as part of the training - but I'm not clear as to the benefits - what exactly does it achieve that MP doesn't and if you don't ever really run slower than your MP will it be detrimental to you on race day?

All my training this year has been either at or faster than MP. If I'm doing a 15k or a 25k - I will try to run slightly above or at MP. I will also always try to speed up towards the end of any long runs I do (the last few ks). What advantage can running 25k or 30k at a slower pace give you than running the same distance at MP or faster?

I did exactly what you are doing for my first three marathons. I injured myself twice and only improved five minutes from my first to third one.
For my fourth and most recent marathon, I followed the advice of the knowledgeable folk who suggest running long runs at the slower pace and knocked 26 minutes off my previous PB.

Maybe it was a coincidence, but I doubt it?

ger664

I ran my first marathon on a get me around plan took all my runs easy as it was my first time going to those distances. I ran my second where I ran all the long runs at the Marathon Pace I wanted to run on the day. I finished 6 minutes slower then my first. Discovered here and listened to good folk like ecoli and haven't looked back.

Krusty_Clown

Other reasons - Time on your feet: If you constantly run at marathon pace, you will be not build have as much endurance preparation for the marathon. For example: if you are aiming for a 3:00 marathon, and your long run is 20 miles at marathon pace),
20 x 06:50 = 2:16:40 = 76% of marathon duration
20 x 07:30 = 2:30:00 = 84% of marathon duration

So you'll have improved endurance if some of your runs are at an easy pace. You'll also have further adaptations, in terms of running economy, fuel burning, glycogen storage etc.

The other side of it is that you really shouldn't be able to do 20 miles at marathon pace. It should be damn near beyond your physical capability in an untapered unrested state. If you have been doing 20 mile runs at marathon pace, than I'd suggest that your marathon pace is not aggressive enough. What distance do you cover in your long runs, and how did you establish your marathon goal pace?
(BTW: I did 8 miles at marathon pace earlier today, and it was very difficult).

BeepBeep67

Agree with everything that's been said (and not knowing the pace of the OP), however the additional consideration that Krusty is alluding to is the difference between for example a 6 min pace marathoner and a 10 min pace one.
Although both could find it tough to hit their time on marathon day, this more than likely will be for different reasons.
I would suggest that someone running at a slower pace has the capacity to run more MP running in training than faster runners, you'll probably find that most of what they do is one paced.
Out of interest would someone aiming for a 4hr20 marathon, go out and run many 4hr LSR's (20 x MP @ 80%)? Personally I wouldn't recommend too many.

RayCun

Back when I was training for my first (4 hour) marathon, I ran 2 x 20 at 10 minute/mile pace, so 3 hours 20 minutes.

rainbow kirby

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Out of interest would someone aiming for a 4hr20 marathon, go out and run many 4hr LSR's (20 x MP @ 80%)? Personally I wouldn't recommend too many.

For my first, I was aiming for something in the 4:45-5 hr region, my one 20 miler would have taken 3:45 ish and I ended up finishing on the day in just under 4:25. Not massively far away from being on my feet for 4 hours in training.

ThePiedPiper

Like the OP, I used to have the attitude of thinking it absolutely necessary to get at or close to MP for at least one of my 20 mile LSRs. And, to be honest, that strategy seemed to be working for me from my 1st-5th marathons, improvements all the way. However, I very slowly (over the space of a couple of years) accepted that I was flogging myself on the long runs, changed my approach, and immediately saw big benefits. Having been stuck at an invisible time barrier for 3 years on my old training system, the new approach saw much better results.

I'd still be a big fan of putting MP miles into the long run, but never, never more than 14. A 20 miler with 14 at MP is a serious session, and every single time I've hit that in recent years, I've made my marathon goal time. Let that sort of session be your guide.

Colostomy Bag

Thanks for all the insight - Let’s take my proposed marathon pace as being 6min/k (last year’s DCM I completed in 4h19), what should my LSR pace be approximately?
The longest time I’ve been on my feet running in training so far this year is approx 2h30 (25k) and that's only in March (longest runs in Feb were all Half Marathon distance and all at or faster than MP). I’m now doing about 50k per week, so 25k midweek (1x10 & 1x15) on top of the long weekend run.
I am also doing 50x25m swimming lengths on the 2 midweek days that I don’t run for extra cardio work. I guess it's obvious that I am pretty short on long runs, irrespective of pace – but there’s nothing I can do about that right now.

Is there any point in me now taking the pace down a notch for the next couple of weeks or should I just carry on? I am running 25k or slightly more today – so may try and lower the speed a little.
The questions I have based on the responses are below –

Ecoli – if my current 25k weekend run at MP(6min/k) is permitting me to run midweek, i.e. I am recovering in time to run 2 days later – I guess you’re going to tell me I’m not running for long enough so should be doing a 3hr LSR. Maybe my MP is just wrong?

Krusty – Time on my feet – this is for endurance, so the longer I can stay running the better and the only way to do that effectively is run at a slower pace – correct? So what percentage of a training regime is spent at MP or faster? Is it just the shorter runs? Surely you have to familiarize yourself greatly with the pace you intend to run at? Last year I ran Connemara in 4h40 without stopping once or walking – but it was hell on earth – I am definitely fitter this year and have more miles under my belt – but I reckon I just don’t have that many long runs under my belt (same every year). Re your 8 mile MP being hard - how would you equate the effort compared to say an 8 mile race (approx 13k) Surely if something is hard at that distance there's no way you could keep it up for a full marathon - Isn't MP by definition the fastest average speed you can run a marathon in? Any slower and you wont be finishing as quickly as you can, any faster and you won't be finishing at all...so how could 13k at MP have been that difficult? If you had run 13k as fast as you possibly can - how much faster would that be than MP effort-wise? I'm just trying to guage what my MP should be, but I know that 13k at my 6m/k pace is quite easy for me. Bear in mind my best M time is 4h19.

A fact that will also back up the injury issues raised by others above is when I did 30k at MP 4 weeks before DCM last year I injured my achilles and had to stop running for 3 weeks – so this does seem to back up the increased risk of injury at MP (although I have no experience of running at a slower pace).

The bottom line for me at the moment has to be the more running the better (with adequate recovery) - It may be too late for me to implement the LSR effectively for Connemara on April 6th. PB times below if any of this could help work out my strategy for MP -5k - 21m, 10k - 49m, HM 1h56, M 4h19.

YFlyer

What times do you have for races at other distances and any of those races recently?

ThePiedPiper

OP, you're absolutely right, it is much too late now to implement a proper LSR strategy for a marathon that's in four weeks. Your best bet now would be to try and take it easy enough on today's 25k run (maybe 6:30) pace, then maybe in mid-week, do 15-20k with maybe 10k at MP. Next weekend, you could possibly do a 30k run, but definitely not go any further, and not any faster than 6:30 pace. If you do that 30k, it will be a big effort, and take a few days recovery. If you were to do that at your MP, then it could take 2 weeks to recover. Go easy on yourself, as you've realised, your training has not been optimal, but really, the time to have been addressing this was 6-8 weeks ago. Get yourself to the start line fit and healthy, and enjoy the day.

menoscemo

YFlyer wrote: »

What times do you have for races at other distances and any of those races recently?

From the above post:

PB times below if any of this could help work out my strategy for MP -5k - 21m, 10k - 49m, HM 1h56, M 4h19.

OP, I agree with RFR that there is no point overcomplicating things this close to your marathon so you may as well continue as planned for the next few weeks.

However for your next marathon; consider training to a more structured programme/paces. From your above PB's your marathon target is very soft; you are clearly lacking endurance and not getting your best time out of yourself over marathon distance. For someone running 21 minutes for 5k; 6 minutes per km is going to be very easy for an LSR but you potentially could be able to run a Marathon at 5 min/km (3hrs30) with more miles and structured training.

For someone like Krusty who has maxed his Aerobic endurance I'd imagine that MP would only be about 10-15seconds/ mile slower than Half marathon Pace and 10k pace would only be another few seconds/mile faster than HMP....

Don Beezie

I am beginning to see a trend here Ecoli........Consistency and progression!!

YFlyer

Thanks menoscemo.

I agree with the above to continue as you are.

Perhaps you can start the race at a similar tempo in Connemara to that in Dublin. Your splits should be on precision timing website, I believe. Don't see the race profile for the Connemara marathon however the Ultra is slightly downhill for the first 10 miles and have some steep climbs in the second half of the race. Your extra fitness, compared to Dublin, will help you keep on pace for the later part of the race even with the hills included.